Makes it a lot easier to add friction before you need it. Not a huge fan of vt prusik knots, but we have started using them for the first person down on big raps especially if you have heavy packs. They are a little annoying, but that is better than being a little dead
Trip Report
darhawk
[QUOTE=”hank moon, If the first person down needs a backup, it should be one which cannot be defeated by grabbing it, or the rope, and ideally does not interfere with friction management.
Yes, you correctly characterize the situation. What do you suggest specifically for the criteria you lay out?
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Rapterman
Good comment! I usually use a block when first person down in the same situation.
My preferred method is a ‘VT prusik’ or valdotain Tresse using the Bluewater runner made for that purpose.
Trouble is, it is not perfect, and I have gotten on new skinny rope and been unable to get it to stick!
Like any technical tool, it takes practice and tinkering to get it dialed.
Do you have a favorite block you can share with us?
Taylor
I have seen the same problem with the VT on some rope. My go-to is a Sterling autoblock loop, tied as an autoblock. I don’t know another name for the hitch. Clip it to a carabiner on the belay loop, wrap upstream as many times as possible/needed, clip back to the biner. Like you write: practice and get it dialed.
darhawk
Upstream, meaning above the rappel device? On the anchor side of the rappel device? Why not below the rappel device?
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Taylor
Disappointing to read only one(maybe I missed another) reference to using a block in 34 responses. Seriously, the first person down on a 300′ mostly free rap doesn’t have a backup? We preach bottom belay for everyone else. Is the first person down expendable? Before you respond “autoblocks are dangerous in a canyon”, save that shit. Learn how to rig an extension and a correct friction hitch(it’s not a prusik) for this exact situation. Thank god he only lost skin+ on his hands.
hank moon
The situation as I understand it (includes assumptions):
– The rappeller was not a beginner, and had developed a solid brake-hand reflex (i.e. “never let go of the brake line”)
– The rappeller lost control of the rappel due to insufficient friction and gained excessive speed well before hitting bottom
Comment: the main defense against such situations is to properly manage friction so as to remain in control of the rappel. There is widespread belief that a standard climber-style rappel safety* is also a good defense here. I disagree, based (among other things) on the complete lack of evidence that an out-of-control rappeller with a deathgrip on the rope is able to reliably release their grip on the rappel safety, an action which is essential to activate it. Further, the extension + friction hitch below device setup makes it more difficult to manage friction on a long rappel.
Related:
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/wolfe-county-sar-rappelling-accident-july-4-2019.25939/
* e.g. extended rappel device w/friction hitch on the brake line below it
Rapterman
Hanging the pack (200 lbs of it!) allows for two handed control of the brake side.
Double the control, where it does the most good.
On big drops, I never have a hand above the device, unless to guide a back up prussick, or the like.
Really glad this incident did not turn out worse.
REALLY, REALLY.
Rapterman
Thankyou for re-reading the instructions!
We did considerable testing on ‘fast’ single strand to ensure that the CRITR2 could handle 8mm rope with
heavy canyoneers. Here is an early test with 350 LBS total (me and 200 lb lead shot).
Also pleased that you mentioned hanging your pack. Not doing this, or being naturally top-heavy can make big trouble on long over-hanging
rappels. Very difficult to adjust friction while trying not to flip upside down!
Krampus
Thanks for story and just to repeat everyone else, I’m glad your friend was ok other than the hand. On those long raps, our first guy always has an autoblock just in case.
Canyonero
In my experience, people are very hesitant to say no. I find follow-up questions useful when deciding whether there was a LOC that would be worth doing a head scan for.
“What do you remember?” “Do you remember the medics walking in?” “Do you remember being awake when the car came to a stop?” “What was your first memory after the accident?”
Canyonero
This is one of the scariest things in canyoneering. We all want to carry lighter, thinner ropes and have learned to care for them. But the truth is that our rappel devices have not kept up. I rapped on one rope recently, using CRITR Mode 2, wearing gloves, and it really wasn’t enough friction. I’m not the lightest person, but not the heaviest canyoneer out there either (194 last time I stepped on a scale).
Someone please make a device that is appropriate for these ropes. In my experience, most canyoneers who weigh 150+ lbs are chronically underfrictioned. This near-miss is a great demonstration of why this is such a bad trend.
Kuenn
Firstly, that’s a grisly looking learning experience and one that will not soon be forgotten…if ever.
Lots of thoughts and opinions here. That said, I’m not claiming mine to be any better.
Problem: With rope it goes without saying there are many “variables”. Material, static/semi-static (dynamic shouldn’t even be part of the discussion), diameter, coating, times used, weather/environment conditions, soiled, even the number of bobbins/weave during mfg, all contributing to the math.
Suffice it to say not all ropes are created equally. Even when they’re the same diameter or a 1/2 mm either way doesn’t necessarily mean squat when it comes to actual performance “on-rope”.
Conclusion: Ropes will perform differently based on “the variables”.
And then there’s the devices…
They exist today. Folks are adverse to one device over the other for the same reason ropes are getting smaller.
The device argument is endless and in many many cases it’s a “use case” issue and not the device.
Take all that yada yada with a grain of salt. Bottom line, when you get on rope your experience is one of, if not the greatest, variable equalizer there is. Recognize early what needs to be done and hopefully have the knowledge to fix it.
Fail early fail often, though helpful in software development is not a recommended process methodology in developing rappelling expertise.
Brian in SLC
I’ve thought that figure eight style descender would have gone the way of the dodo by now…
Too wide open for me especially on a dry, thin semi static rope. Rope twist.
I have one of these that works ok if you’re still married to the eight style:
https://www.rockexotica.com/minieight
Another option:
https://weighmyrack.com/Belay/Mammut-Nano-8
Interesting from Petzl for rappelling a 6mm cord with a Reverso:
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Rappelling-on-the-RAD-LINE-cord?ActivityName=Ski-touring
If I was using a thin, say, 8mm rope a lot, I’d look for a purpose built ATC type device for that diameter.
https://www.kong.it/en/prodotto/chuy/
hank moon
Would you provide more details, such as
– which rope (brand / model) ?
– rope characteristics / conditions (stiff / supple / new / old / fuzzy / wet / dry / dirty / clean) ?
– condition of the rap device (new / slight wear /medium groovy /deeply grooved ) ?
– which on-the-fly friction settings were used ?
Canyonero
Rope was a new 8mm Bluewater Canyon Extreme. Fastest rope I’ve ever rapped though for sure. Significantly faster than @Bootboy ‘s Grand rope, which is already a pretty fast rope.
The rope was quite new, pretty supple, very clean.
Rap device is medium to deeply grooved.
Free-hanging, 200ish feet, pack hung. I think I wrapped the horns toward the end but I was also untying the bag as it took the full rope. One lame thing about the CRITR vs the SQWRL is that yes, you can add more friction, but not in small increments. Wrapping the horns (position A+ in the instructions) adds A LOT of additional friction. Now that I’m reading the instructions again, maybe I should do more position B when adding friction….
hank moon
Yeah, those BW 8mm ropes can be pretty zippy when new. CRITR position B might change your mind: it’s what gives the CRITR an edge over similar devices such as the HooDoo.
Sidebar on CRITR load capacity: http://canyoncollective.com/threads/rappel-device-for-bigger-guy.25399/page-2#post-112511
p.s. @Canyonero – were you using a steel carabiner when you had that CRITR friction prob?
ratagonia
You are not the smallest, and (I suspect) using the smallest, limpest rope (maybe the Lux is smaller/limper) — poor choices will be punished. Maybe we should discuss the off-side leg loop biner trick…
Tom
2065toyota
Completely disagree. The critr is the best device out there and i weigh over 200 and have no friction issues if you learn to use the device properly.
And a “near miss” is actually a hit so that is a bad thing
Canyonero
I’m VERY familiar with the device (I’m on my third or fourth one). It was set up in setting 2 (i.e. maximum friction) from the beginning and still required the addition of more on the fly. See next comment.