ratagonia said:
Okay, I’m game.
“So Tom I did not say it was difficult – altho others obviously think so and sometimes have paid a price – this thread was started by someone who witnessed such and was lucky not seriously harmed. So maybe more dangerous than you think? Not everyone doing E as expert as you, hence the discussion.” — Perhaps the point I claim is a bit too philosophical. Things we do in canyoneering are not in and of themselves dangerous – but almost everything we do IS dangerous when done without the proper skills. Thus the danger is not in the specific activity, the danger is in the lack of proper skill set. Long rappels are not dangerous. People with minimal skills doing long rappels are in serious danger, as both the O.P. and numerous others have shown in Englestead.
Doing a station transfer is also a skill that this group may not have had available. The “Station Transfer” skill and the “Rappel longer than 200 feet” skill are at about the same order of difficulty/risk.
If doing the station transfer, at least one 200′ rope would need to be carried. A more normal setup when doing the station transfer is 2 x 200′ ropes. Carrying a 300’er vs. a 200’er is not an onerous burden. Perhaps the greater burden is that 300′ ropes are not part of the normal rope closet, and coming up with a 300′ rope might be a problem.
Some people like doing long rappels. I do. The one in Englestead is the most accessible in the area, at least the most well known accessible one. And if people chicken out, they can hike back to the car and go into town. Also nice to get the ‘big event’ out of the way first thing in the morning, rather than have anxiety the whole day.
The long rap in E serves decently as preparation for other long rappels such as the ultimate rappel in Heaps and the two long raps in Not Imlay.
Kane County SAR is familiar with the location and practiced in extracting people from it, although it might be Zion NP SAR who does the actual extractions here. While the Zion Ponderosa main building is not nearby, it is not a long way away, so SAR can be called with only a moderate delay.
And finally, aesthetically, I find it more pleasing to follow the watercourse of the canyon, rather than walking along the edge and rapping in over the side, somewhere downcanyon. Are we Rim-aneers?
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That is my case for doing it as one long rappel – though I almost always stop at the 250′ point, either at the head or from the side. Perhaps you would like to expound further on your preference for the station transfer route- you know, sell it a little better.
Tom Click to expand…
Yellow Dart
For what it’s worth, @Bootboy ‘s Grand rope is a paltry 2.6 pounds per 100 feet, only 2 ounces more than a full 1L Nalgene of extra vodka. I mean water, water… not vodka.
Also worth mentioning: the second sequence of rappels, from the bottom of the 300′ down under the boulder then into the (sometimes) keeper pot then down the flute, is around 145′, meaning the 300’ rope can be redeployed for a smooth set of raps followed by a single pull.
Craig_C
Thanks Tom! That’s an excellent plan. I’m going to do it. Seems fairly simple and obvious but the vision in my mind wasn’t clear until you put it into words.
Flatiron
Couple other thoughts. If you have people in group not sure about transfer we did this once. Need 2 people comfortable/experienced with transferring. 1st person down sets up as normal and raps down to bottom. They then do fireman belay for rest. 2nd experienced person raps to station and stays. Then others come down and 2nd person checks so they do transfer ok. So newbies get inspection and fireman. 2nd Exp person then goes last. Win win.
Or with just 1 experienced person they would rap to station, set 2nd rope and stays to check on everyone following. Next person raps to station, then transfers but has to rap without a fireman belay. Rest of group would have a fireman. So exp person would go 1st and stay to be last.
ratagonia
Which requires 3 fully experienced person. Jus’ Sayin… seems like many people show up at E with one or fewer really dialled in person.
Tom
Flatiron
What?? No – not sure if you misread or misunderstand. Option 1 needs 2 exp people – Only to provide Fireman for those who are not exp. Option 2 needs just 1 exp person, they go first, stay at rap station to check everyone, and then go last. This option does mean 2nd person down does not get a fireman on the 200′ rap, every else after does.
Guys this is a really really simple technique – not sure why we are trying to maker it harder than it is.
1st time it was just my buddy and I and we laid it out at our campsite the nite b4 and just went thru each step. It’s very straightforward. Set it up in your yard or garage – it’s really simple.
Flatiron
Hi Rapter, Tom explained but maybe just some more info.
1st person double strand rap to station. 2nd rope has been spilled, figure 8 on bight with biner/s ( or your choice of anchoring single strand ) clipped to harness so when you get to station just clip it into anchor. Partners above then drop rope setting 2nd rope up for single strand rap. ( this way no chance of you losing 2nd rope, and no carrying or manhandling rope at station by 1st person ). Rap single strand down. Then just sequence, meaning you have 2 people rapping on diff ropes at same time to speed up process. One on top rope and one on bottom rope. Last person at station ties 2 ropes together, thru the anchor rings b4 pulling ( learned this hard way by stupidly pulling top rope and then dealing with full weight as I tied together ), and pulls top rope setting up double strand rappel to bottom. Try it you will like it.
I guess my main point is not so much the weight or bulk but the problem/danger people have with the extra 100′ rappel. It freaks people out ( so does exposure but either method you must deal with it ) but more importantly does cause real issues with maintaining control. Some people have even invented rappel devices for such problems. Ha ! Multiple threads have been written and people even practice to learn how to maintain control. Not so much with station transfer. Yes more of a big wall climber technique but I would suggest still easier and safer to learn and use for non expert canyoneers. Which most canyoneers including me are.
Rapterman
Dear Flatiron
re-reading your post and I am confused as to how you (and your party) sequence the two rappels
with just two ropes… (maybe its the dental work+ tylenol ?)
How are you not all ending up at the semi-hanging stance while you pull the first rappel?
Thanks
ratagonia
The first rappel is about 90 feet. So you use 1 x 200 to both do that rappel and pull it. You set the other 200′ rope on the station, and everyone raps from there to the ground… except the last person, who pulls the first rope and ties that on as the pull of the second rappel.
Rapterman
Station to (semi-hanging) station rappels might be safer IF you have experience doing them (wall climbers)
But I would suggest your mind is just as likely to melt from the exposure either way.
I have witnessed folks freak out rapping this drop 300′ and 200′.
Its a looooooooooong ways down
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