Having experimented with this method (fireman’s using a belay device) over the years, a few thoughts:
Managing slack/tension is inherently slower than with classic (i.e. no devices) technique. Time is of the essence. There is no faster way to remove slack and tension the rope than by simply using two hands on the rope.
It’s an expert technique which non-experts tend to try to copy, ineffectively. A non-expert cannot properly focus on the rappeller, as attention is diverted to managing the belay device. Looks flashy, but is less effective than two hands on the rope.
Mobility is hampered by being attached to the rope, making the belayer more vulnerable to falling objects.
Falling over backwards can be risky: you might effectively tension the rope, or you might swing into the dirt/water with the falling guy landing on top of you a la Wile E. Coyote. Attempting to climb the rope is probably a better last ditch.
Best to stick with classic technique: two hands on the rope, no devices. It’s effective, KISS and easily teachable. There is no faster way to remove slack and tension the rope than by simply using two hands on the rope.
Kuenn
In an attempt to avoid the very thing Mark (OP: Mountaineer) suggested, moving my belay comments to this thread.
Yellow Dart
It is, and had noticed that at the time as well. These days the marks are much shorter, as they can really, really gum you up – even single line.
Has anyone seen a different way to mark rope that does not have these hiccups?
ratagonia
Is that Beal-Rope-Marker marked place on the rope? It makes the rope a bit stiffer and stickier where applied.
T
Brian in SLC
^^^Whoa!
Yellow Dart
Also, the massive amount of rope-twisting that happens on a 300′ rap when doing it with a fig8, sqwurel, critr, etc; gotta be able to unwind it for the man at risk.
To that point, this happened in Coral Hollow couple years back; guy on rope was using it as backup on only an 80′ rap on brand-new canyonfire – melted the prussic to the rope 20′ off the deck – had to pitch another line and rap down to cut him free.
Rapterman
Like Deagol, I have tested firemans on long drops on Englestead and the Heaps final drop
on single line 8mm and it was very effective…
HOWEVER, to Rick t’s point, if the rappeller’s friction is way too low you might need your WHOLE body weight pulling
from the bottom to slow ’em down.
Certainly it can be harder to react quickly if you are staring up from several hundred feet.
I think Bo has a tale about this scenario…..
scottensign
We did Englestead Monday, before hearing this sad news. I used a VT prusik as autoblock above my rappel device, attached to a loop of my safety tether for the entry rappel. I like doing this as I can clip in the terminal loop of the safety tether to the anchor, then set the VT prusik autoblock below it on the same safety tether, load that to test it while the tether is still attached to the anchor, then clip into my critr. I see no downsides of using the VT prusik above the rappel device. It is completely natural, and easy to adjust which loop to clip into to give the right length for the left (nonbrake) hand. I use this set up on every long rappel, regardless of whether I go first or not.
ratagonia
The problem with the backup ABOVE the device is that in a loss of control incident, you would have to let go. It has been demonstrated that letting go is NOT the natural reaction – clinging ferociously is.
I think this would be much much less of a problem using at Valdotain knot above than using a prusik above (which evidence shows does not overcome the panic grip).
There is a bit of a nomenclature problem, as the VT prusik is the name of a knot, and ALSO the name of a piece of equipment. As is the term “Valdotain”. I assume you are running a VT prusik (knot) using a VT prusik (device).
Tom
scottensign
Nomenclature is indeed a bit confusing, thanks. I am using the valdotain tresse like this as the block:
ratagonia
I agree with Hank. On long rappels, I often put the rope through my device, but really just so I always know where it is. The belay is provided by pulling on the rope with both hands.
I think the difficulty of providing a bottom belay on a long rappel is over-stated. It is just a bottom belay. It requires attention. The canyoneering ropes most people are using have a low amount of stretch (circa 2%), and the only rope that counts is the rope below the rappeller. In 100 feet, that is 2 feet of stretch. There is usually more of that of slack.
One thing I think worth noting is that the belay should not be provided from directly below, but from out of the rockfall zone. As the rappeller gets closer, the belayer needs to step forward to maintain an effective angle. And keep the slack to an appropriate minimum amount. Being further away also makes it easier to watch the rappeller. But as ALL bottom belays, it does require PAYING ATTENTION, and not doing other things, like taking pictures. Helps if each person belays the next person down. That way each person only needs to belay once, and can take pictures, fiddle with gear, grab a snack etc when they are off-duty.
Tom