Mike Zampino said:
First Check Box:
I have adequately planned and prepared for this trip. I have taken action to ensure that my group is self-reliant and aware of the risks involved with canyoneering and this canyoneering trip. I understand that rescue is not a certainty. My safety and the safety of my group is my responsibility. Click to expand…
Scott Patterson
Its all the same dept of agriculture.
What the **** country are you from? The National Park Service has absolutely nothing to do with the Department of Agriculture. Every post you make just reaffirms that you have no idea what so ever what you are talking about.
I also dont believe its more likely than not an officer would break a closed area to descend Keyhole.
They likely didn’t know that canyon was closed. But they did know the weather forecast as were warning. The NPS can’t physically close every single trailhead immediately after a warning is issued.
Scott Patterson
Like I said I could be wrong…hehe.
There is no “could be” about it and that is applicable to every single post which you have made on this thread.
AW~
LOL, yeah,..Interior….ahh…PLUS the police officer family is saying they knew/warned about the flash flood potential. Hmm…
https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/a…d-ones-lost-to-zion-flash-flood/#.VfyjqZf-mFs
Like I said I could be wrong…hehe.
Scott Patterson
I havent heard that. As far as I know we only have 1 that was told to be confirmed. Maybe though.
Apparently you haven’t read any of the reports on the incident. All of the news stories say this and the NPS as well:
http://www.sltrib.com/home/2953891-155/park-officials-2-dead-5-missing
The group of four men and three women from California and Nevada picked up their permit to go through the canyon about 7:30 a.m. on Monday, despite rangers’ warnings that the flash flood danger was “probable,” said park spokeswoman Aly Baltrus.
The weather forecast also said that there were chances of flash floods.
There is no evidence that most of them thought they werent capable.
What are you talking about?
Many people like the permit system., which infers responsibility for the forest service. And the forest service accepts the situation, so….you and I are overruled LOL.
Again, what you are talking about? Zion National Park has nothing to do with the Forest Service. Canyoneering permits don’t have anything with the NPS accepting responsibility for mishaps. In fact the reason for the permits is the opposite. They say that the party, rather than the NPS is responsible for safety. One of the primary purposes of the permit is so that people sign something saying that the NPS can’t be held responsible.
Where does the permit infer responsibility to the Forest (sic) Service? Show us one place on the permit that does.
The Forest Service said they got info at 2:22 pm…and they closed canyons…on the internet.
The NPS also has a radio station, which you can pick up in that area, which post weather warnings. It is not practical to immediate get to every trailhead existing.
Not relevant. That neither violates the permit terms
Here are some of the permit terms:
My safety and the safety of my group is my responsibility. I will be aware of the weather and the flash flood potential rating and assume the risks involved with entering a canyon.
If bad weather threatens, my group will not enter a narrow canyon. I will continuously evaluate the weather and adjust my plans to keep myself and my group safe.
Look at the photograph. It looks like the ground is already wet and has little pools in it before they even got into the technical section. (It seems there are some conflicting accounts as to when the rain started in the canyon).
AW~
Thats not specific enough. It does sugges t that they did, but it could be a PR move. I admit I could be wrong. We’ll see. A part of me really think the police officer sgt didnt know….given his public persona was quite specific about the danger of water. But on Bogley it says he could be the permit holder. Its just something that has to be clarified.
Its all the same dept of agriculture. And that permit itself is defacto proof that the area has some kind of zoning and its associated procedures. If you want to say there was no duty to warn, fine. I think there could be….but Im not a lawyer. I also dont believe its more likely than not an officer would break a closed area to descend Keyhole.
Phillip
I think the above idea about experience and weather forecast is extremely pertinent. The audio of the ranger makes it clear that the forecast included flash flood potential which I remember correctly meant “probable”. The sky directly above a canyon like Keyhole provided limited information in monsoon season when there are thunderstorms forecasted. I have recommended people read the NOAA ” forecast description” for weather for years; it provides details that are critical to decision making like the fact this was a major storm series from a remnant hurricane. In this situation that meant highly unstable patterns carrying large amounts of moisture. Assuming anyone has the ability to accurately predict what that means from a view if the sky is a logical trap.
I sincerely hope no professional, at the NPS or a outfitter/guide company, encouraged them in any fashion to proceed with a Keyhole descent that day. I fear any encouragement or recommendation in that fashion could be seen as negligent (not sure where the boundary between that and gross negligence lies in this situation). While I am a huge proponent of personal accountability it is not a priority that is mutually exclusive with other forms of responsibility. We encourage people to seek “expert” advice and privilege “authority” in this sport which creates legal and ethical responsibilities. I assume any organization that interacted with this team had already investigated its policy, adherence to it and I interviewed anyone involved. For everyone’s sake I think we all hope all is up and up and all actors behaved in good faith and professionally.
Fingers crossed that within a few weeks this situation is cleared up and the families can focus on coping with their loss and grief without any other factors.
Phillip
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Scott Patterson
This begs the question, with whom did they take a class with
I don’t know personally, but some on Bogley said that some of the gear they are wearing appears to be rented from ZAC(?). This photo was taken by the party after dropping into the Keyhole drainage.
I don’t know if they told whoever they took the class with that they were doing Keyhole that afternoon, but either way, I don’t think anyone can blame the instructors. It was a terrible tragedy.
bruce from bryce
I am wondering why they picked up the permit at 7:40am when there probably was a TS threat but no activity yet, but did not go into the canyon until the afternoon when the activity was obviously in and around the Pine Creek/Keyhole area. Unfortunately we will never know.
Scott Patterson
Keyhole IS the right canyon for beginners, IMO.
Agreed. Doing their first canyon was a factor, but it doesn’t mean that Keyhole is the wrong choice for a first canyon. It’s a good first.
It was a factor because most people that do their first canyon are naturally slower (which isn’t bad and is expected) and it is the reason why they did the canyon in the afternoon (most of the party was taking the class during the day). Doing your first canyon as Keyhole is generally a good choice.
It would also be interesting to know if they had a canyon itinerary for the week.
Yes. They had Subway permits for Tuesday.
It is critical to take personal responsibility.
Agreed. The reason I made that comment is because I wouldn’t want to canyoneer with anyone who might be inclined to blame me or others if something went wrong.
Sometimes, the land managing agencies are negligent. For example, I think they probably were in the case of the bear attack at Timpooneke several years ago.
For this flash flood though, I can’t see that the park service did anything wrong or had anything to do with it. As far as I know, thus far I haven’t seen any blame directed towards the NPS. I have been talking to one of the family members and trying to find out info for her and at least she isn’t blaming the NPS. Even she said she didn’t understand why they went when the weather looked bad and while it was raining.
It was and is a terrible tragedy. Plenty of people take the chances in the same way (tehy weren’t the only canyoneers in canyons that afternoon) and get away with it. I’ve heard even experienced canyoneers make comments such as “just look at the sky and you can tell if the weather will be bad” or “Mystery Canyon or the Subway don’t have very high flash flood risk”. None of it is true in my opinion.
Last year we went to Zion over the 4th of July. Usually early July is before the monsoon, but it wasn’t last year. The canyons just flashed the day before we did it. Someone probably did get hit by a flood in Keyhole before we did it. I never heard anything about it though. Here’s what I wrote in my trip log:
Today the flash danger was rated moderate, so Shaylee, Kessler, Kimberly, and I decided to get up really early and try something (we had permits for Pine and Keyhole). I was hoping to be done very early morning since t-storms are very rare in the morning. There were three swims in Pine before the first rappel and we decided to retreat. I don’t mind the swimming, but I thought it might slow us down enough to prevent us getting through in the early morning hours, so we retreated.
Kessler and I (the girls didn’t want to go) did Keyhole in about one hour and it was also completely filled with water and it was obvious that it really flashed (you could see wet sand and pine needles caked high on the walls). Incidentally, we found lots of gear. We found a backpack, headlamp, etc, strewn on the debris in the canyon. We packed it all out (since we did it early morning I assume we were the first ones through since the flood), but we wondered if someone got caught in a flash flood in there.
On a different note, as said, we decided to bail on Pine Creek. Other people were in Pine Creek that day and did the canyon without incident. Later at camp they said that we had missed out. Still, I believe we made the right decision. To me, it was better to be safe than sorry.
Morgan
4. Only one member of the party had any experience with canyoneering. The rest took a canyoneering class during the day and that is the reason why the party didn’t start until afternoon. (Not that Keyhole doesn’t make a first good canyon).
This begs the question, with whom did they take a class with and did they discuss their plans, amidst the forecast, to complete Keyhole later that afternoon?
Mike Zampino
I don’t think that matters. The storm came in quick according to the group that passed them that said clear skies were above. The speed for beginners is very random based on many variables including just wanting to take your time to enjoy your first canyon. Unfortunately, once they dropped in their window to the sky disappeared.
Mountaineer
Each of us are responsible for our own safety. Our acceptable level of risk is personal. When you are with a group, it can be even more difficult. Peer pressure can sometimes push you beyond your comfort zone. It is OK to say no.
I believe most here have traveled hundreds of miles at some point, taken off work, spent a lot of $; and retreated due to a bad forecast. That is really tough to do. Heck, I’ve been with a lot of you on this forum when we had to turn back or change plans.
Each time, weather or not related, we take a gamble. None of us know exactly what the weather will do, nor what accidents await us. And hindsight is always 20-20. It can happen to any of us.
I love the quote, if you are not sure you should go: don’t.
Scott Patterson
I wishes the park service had done more like putting up a closed sign at the trailhead.
The permit was obtained at 7:40 AM. The rain didn’t start until 4:30 PM. For all the NPS knew, the party had long done the canyon. It really isn’t the job of the NPS to follow around every single canyoneer and make sure they do a canyon safely. Safety is a personal responsibility.
Here are some facts to consider:
1. The party didn’t start until about nine hours after the permit was issued.
2. The party was warned that flash flooding was probable.
3. It was raining before the party even started into the technical section.
4. Only one member of the party had any experience with canyoneering. The rest took a canyoneering class during the day and that is the reason why the party didn’t start until afternoon. (Not that Keyhole doesn’t make a first good canyon).
The above isn’t meant to be a criticism for the deceased (it is a terrible situation), but only to point out that each of the above was a factor contributing to the accident and all were factors beyond the control of the National Park Service.
Also, if the canyon closed in the afternoon, it seems physically impossible to try and track down every single canyoneer (or even every trailhead) in the park and to close every trailhead that has a slot canyon. As far as I’ve seen the NPS does try and track people down-when they can.
Once I was issued a permit for Kolob Creek and the NPS decided to close the canyon. I was doing Pine Creek at the time and they tracked me down and left a note on my car saying my permit was revoked. I was only one person though and that’s different than trying to track down everyone in the park and going to every trailhead trying to tell people that a canyon was closed.
PS AW, I would never ever ever canyoneer with someone who would blame someone like the NPS for what happened here. Just in case the topic ever comes up in the future.
AW~
Not relevant. That neither violates the permit terms nor anything in canyoneering which accepts travel in darkness.
Even if a start time could be deemed dangerous, its still considered safe because people can turn back.
I havent heard that. As far as I know we only have 1 that was told to be confirmed. Maybe though.
Idk if there is any standard on this. Interesting quotes can be pulled though. One that stands out(in response to me)is “Despite the 20 minute deluge, I had no concerns about flash flooding given the conditions I observed. Different story had it been raining all day, but this was not the case.Everyone in the group was adequately skilled for this canyon, with the exception of the newbie. So he got extra attention and especially on the first rappel—the longest—he definitely slowed things down. Still, when the last person came down on this rappel, there was adequate time cushion. But then came the stuck rope….”
I dont make an opinion off experience so I dont know what to tell you. There is no evidence that most of them thought they werent capable.
I dont blame the NPS….I am talking about who the law or public may blame. I would be removed from the jury, but thats neither here nor there. I can tell you that you might find yourself alone if you are true to your word. Many people like the permit system., which infers responsibility for the forest service. And the forest service accepts the situation, so….you and I are overruled LOL. And yes, trailheads are closed around here…even before rain. Roads are closed too. And enforced LOL…all in the name of the legal and political mechanisms. Even though this is not apples and apples…Francis vs Utah does assign blame because they didnt warn sufficiently about a bear. In the larger lawsuit against the dept of agriculture, “The ruling says the Forest Service “breached its duties” by not warning the public and found the agency to be 65 percent at fault. The judge assigned 25 percent of the blame to the Division of Wildlife Resources for failing to communicate with the Forest Service, and 10 percent of the fault to the boy’s family for leaving food out in bear country — specifically a granola wrapper and a Coke Zero can.”…the Forest Service said they got info at 2:22 pm…and they closed canyons…on the internet.
Kuenn
Scott Patterson, thanks for the additional info. I, as well as others (living outside the news area), are very interested in the “non-media” source details. Not from a second-guessing perspective (which eventually will most certainly happen, for a disaster of this scale), but more for a better understanding of how this infamous perfect storm all came down.
Interesting note:
Keyhole IS the right canyon for beginners, IMO. Although, I wonder if the pressure for getting the first one under-the-belt may have played a role in taking the weather risk. It would also be interesting to know if they had a canyon itinerary for the week. Which can add another pressure point.
Going to stop here. This is trending toward second-guessing…and it’s way too early for that.
spinesnaper
It is critical to take personal responsibility. If the NPS had to take responsibility to insure the safety of every park visitor, we would all be confined to shuttle buses and they would weld the windows shut to reduce the risk of injury. The Grand Canyon would have to be filled in with concrete. Lets cherish our wild places and our ability to visit them on our own terms.
Ken
Rick Demarest
The Coalition of American Canyoneers has begun work on a series of safety pages as an information resource. The web page below contains a Coconino SAR poster and a list of posts by Tom Jones on his CanyoneeringUSA site. As part of this resource we are looking at creating an accident database similar to the ones for climbing & caving. Please share this information. Thank you.
http://www.americancanyoneers.org/safety/
Rapterman
AW-
This tragedy is a blow to the heart (and gut!) for many (most?) of us.
Sincerest condolences to the families.
Having a tragedy occur does not mean someone is to blame.
Perhaps our collective desire for adventure is to blame?
Because there is no adventure without risk.
And there is no freedom to take those risks without personal responsibility.
trackrunner
Another article with statements from family http://www.ksl.com/?sid=36580357&ni…ms-mourn-loved-ones-give-thanks&s_cid=queue-1
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