I bow out of this conversation. Too many speculations too many assumptions. Luckily not everyone feels like AW or else we would have railings, gates, closures, etc. everywhere.
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Trip Report
I bow out of this conversation. Too many speculations too many assumptions. Luckily not everyone feels like AW or else we would have railings, gates, closures, etc. everywhere.
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Canyoncrazy
AW- “I also dont believe its more likely than not an officer would break a closed area to descend Keyhole.”
I hope you are not implying an assumption that because someone is an officer, they would be the one to break the “law” and enter a closed canyon. First off, Officer Arthur is THE Sgt of my Little Brother’s shift. My Brother said Sgt Arthur was the “best, fairest, kindest person I ever worked with, he exemplifies the traits of a good cop, all around awesome man. He will be missed by his whole Dept not only by his family & friends….”
Please Don’t judge those you don’t know or have never met….
Also, as a former officer, I take offence if that is the stance you take.
Just FYI: The people who spoiled getting Navajo closed canyons opened again in 2007 (as we, Joe & I, were trying to get a permit system opened up), was a group of young, selfish, self entitled locals, who poached the canyon, got injured and were caught on native lands. Not a one of them worked for law enforcement, or cared about rules, laws or land regulations.
—Also, are you aware, Many of The people who volunteer to save other’s butts here in AZ are Officers? Along with civilians, active duty YCSO, Coconino, Prescott PD, Flagstaff PD officers donate their free time to work for SAR. Not for pay, not for fun, but to try and save people’s lives. Anyone who finds that they made a wrong turn, GPS breaks, make bad choices, or accidents DO happen. They work (for free) to find people like the 7 who sadly died in Keyhole, or the children and women killed in Hillsdale. They work so someone in danger Might live, might. If not, so their families can have closure. The the fact that one was an “Officer” had nothing to do with why they entered a canyon, closed or not.
Thoughts go out to the families of the lost ones.
I agree- “I think it is very appropriate to mourn the tragic and unnecessary loss of these souls and at the same time reflect on how to make canyoneering safer for new canyoneers.”- and for us all, no one is immune to accidents.
-Sara
Cameron
I am reading this….this is true? How do we know it was raining when they entered the second technical section of keyhole???
this is making better sense why they didn’t do it until late….took a ZAC class then hit Keyhole. WOW……did anyone at ZAC advise them not to go and rent the gear?
3. It was raining before the party even started into the technical section.
4. Only one member of the party had any experience with canyoneering. The rest took a canyoneering class during the day and that is the reason why the party didn’t start until afternoon. (Not that Keyhole doesn’t make a first good canyon).
spinesnaper
It makes a great first canyon on a sunny day. I think it is very appropriate to mourn the tragic and unnecessary loss of these souls and at the same time reflect on how to make canyoneering safer for new canyoneers.
AW~
I can make my points without excess emotion.
Lets clear up some confusion:
1) i dont believe the nps is to blame
2) i dont think they should be liable
3)1&2 doesnt mean the nps should not get involved. If someone is in need of water im going to give it to them and not starve them because they should have brought enough.
4)I have never said that involvement should be closure to keep that person out so it never comes up. Its the nps that does closures…..so
maybe it can be done more effeciently.
5) im the person who belives in optimism and confidence no matter the circumstances. Excuse me if i hope for the best safety mindset in a group and it ends up they didnt know it or understand risk#95641. Im sorry if the deaths upset the world of the experienced people….ruining some experts dinner?
gajslk
A. I doubt it. B. Are you trying to offensive? Insensitive? If so, congratulations.
Gordon
Phillip
I can’t tell if AW is advocating that philosophy or playing Devil’s Advocate.
There should be no doubt there are segments of society who perceive the park as accountable in these situations. I disagree with that stance and believe the permit process encourages a personal accountability in decision making. I remember some debate in the community that centered around the concern that a more regimented permit process like Zion uses actually opens the door more to litigation but I have no clue how grounded that idea was.
Sounds like death toll increased from the storm as another person , unrelated to either the hillsdalle or Zion situations, was found on the Arizona strip. Sounds like another vehicle caught in a wash.
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Dave Melton
AW-
This is a thread about the tragic deaths of 7 people. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but PLEASE STOP using “LOL” and “hehe” in your posts on this thread.