I have been a ney-sayer for a while thinking I didn’t have any “real” use for ghosting techniques such as the fiddlestick. I mean, why ghost a canyon (popular ones and trade routes) when the next group through is going to leave webbing anyway? Then a few fellow canyoneers started pulling the fiddlesticks off of their harnesses or out of their packs and rigging them on selected raps. I instantly realized I was being narrow minded as I continue to grow in this wonderful activity and saw how it can eliminate hard pulls, avoid stuck ropes, prevent rope groves, among other things. So I order me one and started practicing with it. Each time I used the same process of installing the fiddlestick and locking it off for all but the last (me) person. Deployed the pull line and had someone below manage it. Removed the lock so it could be released. Then proceeded to rappel.
Then this past weekend while waiting my turn on a 70ft rappel that was biner blocked I decided instead of tying a second rope on for the pull cord I would use the fiddlestick. So I removed the biner block and installed the fiddlestick. Tossed down the rope bag for the pull cord. I was about to sit down to adjust/set the stone knot better when the fiddle slipped out and down went my pull cord. I lucked out that I still had the rappel line backed up and attached to the anchor otherwise I would have been stranded mid-canyon without any ropes.
Needless to say I was a little frazzled and disappointed with myself and when I hauled the rope back up the fiddlestick stayed on my harness.
Tirrus
While we are talking about increasing risk and advanced technique. Not attempting to derail the conversation, but let’s combine a few scenarios…
…Anyone played with the concept of using a fiddlestick to prevent rope grooving simul rapping an arch via a hitch bend?
Something like this maybe.
Thoughts?
Canyonero
Yes, I’ve got a thought. I’ve done the simul rappel off Morning Glory in Medieval Chamber/Negro Bill and found it a bit nerve-wracking. I don’t think I’d want to add anything else to the equation, rope grooves be damned.
But I think a better way to minimize grooving would be to tie a figure eight on a bight into the end of one rope, and a stone knot into the other rope (using the figure eight as the “anchor”) and fiddle that with a separate pull cord/rope. I’d use a very lightweight pull cord since it is 200 feet and free hanging, and I wouldn’t throw it until I was weighted on the fiddle.
I don’t recall ever using a “hitch bend,” am not sure what it is, and have no idea what that knot you’ve tied above is, but it does look like it falls apart when the fiddlestick leaves. I’m just not sure if it falls apart before!
ratagonia
But since you are using a 3X solution, it is easy enough to use “solid” solutions AND avoid making rope grooves.
(I thought Morning Glory was just over 100 feet each side. I remember using a single 200′ rope over it, but had to go out further on the arch and rap into the poison ivy because it did not reach the ground at the “normal place”.)
Tom
Rapterman
I am still ambivalent about releasing them to the “public”, but the
Franken-Stick will not “fall out” while you are rigging it due to the twists…
But I STILL like to safety the Franken prior to LAPAR.
Hank has been testing the Franken Stick
Any feed back Mr. Moon???
hank moon
Canyonero: “managing a rappel rigged with a fiddlestick”
Tom: “attention required to rig a FiddleStick”
Canyonero: “more complicated and dangerous”
Tom: “difficult and risky”
Are there apple and orange issues here? Certainly there is room for clarification. On an abstract level, it is a matter of probability that “managing a rappel rigged with a fiddlestick” is riskier than, say, managing a doubled-rope rappel. On a concrete level, a lack of statistics precludes reaching any meaningful conclusion.
A recent trend in KnotPeg discussion is a relaxation of the emphasis on the “advanced” nature of the technique and to make light of what I consider to be important* details, such as securing the peg for everyone but LAPAR. Or perhaps I misunderstand what Tom is saying: “I personally have stopped using the ‘biner backup on the Fiddle. I don’t think it does any good. You can clip the pull cord to something until you have the Stone Knot properly tightened.” My read of this is that Tom no longer uses a carabiner to back up the stick while people are rappelling. Tom, would you elaborate on this, or provide a link to where you have already done so? Are you planning to remove the safety carabiner part of the FiddleStick instructions and Tech Tip?
* important because if the peg is not secured, there is a risk (however slight) that it can come out of the knot at the wrong moment. I prefer to eliminate that risk by securing the peg in the knot, which is easily done with a Smooth Operator or other easily securable design.
ratagonia
Thanks for the segue, Hank.
Perhaps associated with the “Wherein lies responsibility…” thread, I am having a crisis of language and thought…
I used to have the world divided easily into beginner techniques and advanced techniques. The realization (from that thread) is that the beginner’s mind thinks all the anchors are in place and taken care of, and the ONLY technique required is to thread the rope through the ring.
So all techniques are advanced techniques. You screw it up, you can die, whether it be tying a sling around a stout tree, threading the rope through the ring, reading/trusting the published beta, walking carefully when near an exposed edge, threading the rope through your rappel device.
The FiddleStick involves a certain, small set of things you need to know and pay attention to. Mike Z discovered a new one for him, and brought it to everyone’s attention. I think most people who have used a FiddleStick more than a few times know of this “thing”, and shake their heads going “yup”. Once you do this, it is obvious; before, not so much. “Small set of things you need to know and pay attention to” describes essentially every technique we use in canyoneering, including threading the rope through the ring and pulling through enough rope to reach the ground or the next anchor – a “beginner” technique that people screw up on a regular basis, resulting in death.
So … does calling some things “advanced” and some things “beginner” mean anything?
Yes, It does. We have general agreement that there are a small set of techniques to learn and master FIRST, and some to wait on and learn later. People don’t learn how to do a pickoff on their first day – there are much more important and useful techniques they should learn first. By this measure, the FiddleStick is an advanced technique… although I have to admit, I don’t want beginners using a Peg-Knot device, because beginners are not very good at being careful, or at figuring out somewhat-subtle but important aspects of using some tools.
This relates to why I think the clip-off holes of the Smooth Operator are not useful. I don’t put them on MY peg-device for several reasons: A. because Luke thought of this innovation, and should reap the benefit of it from those to whom it appeals; B. because I don’t think they make Pegging safer; and C. because I think the stick/carabiner combo is easier to get stuck behind a rock or pinch than the stick with a leash style of the FiddleStick.
Why doesn’t having “safeties” make it safer? There is a small set of things to know and pay attention to to use a Peg-Device safely. I think making the process more-complicated distracts from the “paying attention” part of this. The safeties allow you to NOT pay attention to a few aspects for PART of the time. To me… this is not a benefit. I think people should be totally paying attention the whole time. If you want to NOT pay attention, just tie a Stone Knot and stick a biner in it. (Some people I have a lot of respect for disagree with this assessment, and prefer the Smooth Operator).
Tom
Bootboy
I suppose you have to quantify dangerous or risky
ratagonia
1 = it works, you are on the ground safe, and the rope has been recovered.
0 = it does not work. you are dead.
Do you want meaningful statistics?
Given the population using Peg-devices (small) and the rarity of failure, meaningful statistics are not possible. Unless you accept the premise above, Schrodinger as Cat-yoneer – statistics don’t matter if you are the person it fails on.
Tom
Bootboy
Im not after statistics.
Is it wrong to say that one technique is more-or-less risky than an alternative, as you have suggested?
Obviously some techniques require more skill and experience to employ than others. But perhaps the riskiness in therein determined. I would say a Knot-peg device is more dangerous in the hands of an unexperienced newb than it is when used by you, Tom.
Perhaps risk, in the absence of hard data is more qualitative than quantitative.
In my mind, when it comes to tools and techniques, the labels “beginner”, “advanced”, etc… are applied because some carry more inherent RISK than others, not because they are harder to use.
Canyonero
There’s no doubt managing a rappel rigged with a fiddlestick is more complicated and dangerous than doing it otherwise. It is only a matter of time before somebody gets stranded/dies because of they screw it up. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use it (because the benefits are very real), but there are lots of ways to screw this up, especially if you have to leave the ledge without having the knot tight on the fiddlestick.
One of the best habits to establish whenever possible is to be clipped into an anchor until you are ready to rappel (and you have your weight on the stone knot with the fiddlestick in it. However, sometimes the anchor IS the rope, tied around a fiddlestick, where that’s not an option. However, you can usually put a sling around whatever you’re fiddlesticking and not remove that until you’ve got the stone knot weighted with your body weight.
These “fiddlestick back-up” techniques just make sure your fiddlestick doesn’t end up at the bottom of the rappel. They don’t necessarily keep it in the stone knot which is what prevents your death if you aren’t backed up to something else. In that respect, I like the smooth operator concept (hole in both ends that can be clipped to the loop above the stone knot) better than the other two.
ratagonia
I doubt that.
All ways of rigging a rappel require attention and doing it right. The attention required to rig a FiddleStick anchor is not significantly higher than that required for other methods. Using ANY method appears complicated and fiddly until one attains proficiency.
I don’t know what you are doing, Canyonero, that makes things so difficult and risky.
Tom
Canyonero
Well, if I can’t convince you, we’ll have to agree to disagree. But let me phrase it this way. Let’s compare a throw and go DRT rappel and a single rope rappel off a fiddle. To make everything else equal, we’ll assume you’re using the exact same anchor, and it is totally bomber.
With the throw and go you have to:
1) Properly run the rope through the anchor
2) Make sure the rope(s) actually reach the ground
3) Properly attach yourself to the rope
With the Fiddlestick you have to:
1) Properly run the rope through the anchor
2) Make sure the rope(s) actually reach the ground
3) Properly tie the stone knot
4) Ensure the fiddlestick is appropriately placed in the knot
5) Ensure the fiddlestick won’t be knocked out while you rappel
6) Ensure the fiddlestick rope isn’t twisted around the rappel rope
7) Ensure the fiddlestick isn’t pulled out while you rappel
8) Properly attach yourself to the rope
There are five extra things there to worry about/not screw up. It is inherently more complicated, dangerous, risky etc. I’m not saying it’s an unacceptable risk, and maybe the additional level of risk is really marginal, but to argue there is NO additional risk there, IMHO, is wrong.
Mike Zampino
Yes – it was a smooth operator where the canyon quickdraw is in place so it cannot inadvertently get dislodged.
Yes – I am not usually the first to rap on it so the know is usually set.
Mountaineer
Thanks Mike for sharing. I’ve had a fiddlestick device slip out a couple of times while trying to setup also, as Bootboy can attest to. 😉
Curious, what type of rope were you using?
Mike Zampino
Canyon extreme.
Bootboy
Good reason to clip the PC bag to the anchor or to have it otherwise managed by someone NOT on rappel. I usually don’t deploy the pull cord until I have the rope fully weighted and Im in a comfortable position, sometimes I even lock off. So when I do deploy the pull cord, I have a firm grip on it with slack between my hand and the fiddlestick so that in the event of a yank on the PC, my grip prevents that force from being applied to the fiddle stick. I wait for the PC to be managed appropriately from below before resuming my rap. All of this assuming that I am the last man.
Vigilance and foresight is key when using these “advanced” techniques. Hence the label “advanced”.
ratagonia
I almost always have the 2nd to last person take the pull cord bag down, or throw it down — with the end of the pull cord clipped up to the Stone Knot loop. If I was setting up the Fiddle for the last person, as Mr. Zampino was doing here, while I would have the pull cord hanging, it would be clipped to my harness until I had the Fiddle set up and the knot tightened.
Tom
Deagol
Sounds like you were the first person on your fiddlestick on that particular rap?
I have not done it that way, there are always those going down first when the stick I use is locked in. The stick is locked-in via safety biner during the time the pull cord is deployed, so the pull bag can’t shock the stick out as it is falling. The previous rappeler(s) weight on the line cinches the rope down very tight on the stick. By the time I am ready to go as LAPAR, the stick is very tight in the knot. Unlocking the safety biners is about the last thing I do before going over the edge. For the record, I think those biners do accomplish some good, but don’t want to get in an argument about it…
To clarify: this is a setup where the safety biner(s) work like a Smooth Operator (hold the stick into the knot) as opposed to the biner that locks into the knot itself as is done with a normal fiddlestick backup. The knot itself doesn’t need to re-set after removing the biner(s)
ratagonia
This Ram moment brought to you by…
I personally have stopped using the biner backup on the Fiddle. I don’t think it does any good. You can clip the pull cord to something until you have the Stone Knot properly tightened.
Tom