Maybe you should call me and I can explain what happened. They were sitting above us at the 50 foot rappel. The 2nd rap is has very little room, so they could not have come down. We barely had enough room for the 4 of us. And, I never assumed they were competent. We didn’t have a conversation with them. Next time, I will have them fix a line, then I can ascend 50 feet up, have a great conversattion with the group, then descend down and do the two stage rappel. I guess, what I am trying to tell you is that from 50 feet above, we did not have a conversation with them. IDK Tom, I guess you would have had to have been there to know what transpired. We had several ropes, so that wasn’t the issue. We had several ropes in play and managed the rappels correctly. Maybe they were eagar to get down, or just didnt know they should have waited to throw ropes. After getting hit with the rock, I looked up and saw a person in their group rapelling. I was at the bottom of the mulit stage rappels, and so was everyone in our group. We had pulled our ropes, and were bagging them. Except from them throwing rope and gear when we were on the 2nd stage rappel, I don’t think they could have done anything different as well. I dont know if they were aware they dislodged a rock. But as far as the rappels, those were managed correctly by our group. You are not understanding what really went on, so call me and I will try to explain.
Trip Report
Stevee B
Worth repeating!
Brian in SLC
I guess I got confused by the location and sequence of events…
So, the first post was incorrect? You were at the bottom of what you describe as the 3rd rappel? The bigger flatish area where the stream course changes from north to west-ish?
Ahh.
Busy canyon, loose rock, multiple parties….makes for a tough stew to manage.
I’d think, from what you call the third rappel station, that if you were off the anchor, and, the party above was coming down, they’d be good to go as long as you were off the anchor?
That’s a tough area to manage a bunch of people in. Not sure what they could have done differently? If they didn’t notice that they dislodged a rock?
If were me, I’d get out of the bombing zone at the bottom of any rappel with folks coming in from above. Immediately. Easy enough to go off rappel and walk out of the way at the bottom of the rappel (especially at that large flat spot).
Been a problem in popular rappel spots like the standard rappel back to the Upper Saddle on the Grand Teton. Standing below that rappel isn’t a good idear at all. There’s a constant barrage of rockfall. As soon as the rope is pulled another is getting tossed down. Just the nature of the beast at popular spots where folks have to continue down.
So…ditto what Tom said above. Easier rope pull. Safer to pull rope from out of the bomb zone. Not as much worry about parties coming down and their rockfall, ropes, packs.
Glad you weren’t hurt worse!
Jeana
My main intention for this accident report was to relay the importance of wearing helmets in canyons, and knowing rescue skills in case of emergency and to make people aware that if you are at the top of a group rap be aware that you can kick down debris and to have groups move quickly out of potential rock fall areas. Again, I have replayed this over and over in my mind to think of what could have been done different. I was at the bottom or R3 when I got hit and saw that a member of their group was rappelling. The only thing that could have been done different was to have me moved fully off of R3 and over to R4 before they rappelled. Then I wouldn’t have been hit by a falling rock. It was impossible to relay that information from 397 feet below.
Jeana
I was the last one on the flat area, our group was moving over to R4 to set it up. I guess being LAMR and bagging rope put me at the most risk. One of our group members was at the bottom of R3 When I started down, we all weren’t just hanging out on R3. Our ropes were not pulled, and they still threw gear and ropes over. We thought at one point, they were going to use our ropes to rappel on R2. It was confusing to me what they were doing up there. Its really hard to communicate when you are 188 feet below.
ratagonia
I don’t need to be there to understand what transpired, because you were there and I can ask you questions. But you did not answer my question in the way it was asked; therefore the confusion.
The question was: “Did your group have contact with the trailing group before the last of your people went down? I mean, at the top of the first rappel?”
Your answer was: “Yes, they got there as we were building the anchor. They saw us on the multistage rappel and still threw bags and rope down.”
I now see that your answer was incorrect, and I withdraw the criticism, at least some of it.
If you “managed the rappels correctly” then why were there four people at that anchor – why had not 2 or 3 of those people done the second rappel already? It does not take 4 people to pull the rope from above.
One thing you CAN do, which everyone CAN do, is not pull the rope from above until you are ready for the group above to come on down. Most people, even beginners, would wait until the rope gets pulled before going over to set up their own rope.
While you ARE the victim of rudeness by the party behind you, I take issue with the statement that “you did everything possible” to prevent the accident. Clearly you had more ropes available and could have had most of your party off that ledge already by the time the incident occurred, giving them fewer targets to hit (kind of a Schroedinger’s rockfall argument).
AND, I am sorry to be taking this out on you, but… There is an idea swarming about that accidents “just happen”. That “we did everything right” and then something went wrong. There are SOME cases where this is true, but not many. Usually there are several errors leading up to any accident or near miss – the accumulation of errors being the cause of the accident. There are things you could have done better. Part of the point of writing up accidents is to get clear on what things you could have done better; or more importantly, make clear what things everyone can do to minimize their risk when out in the field, even with rude, inexperienced parties behind them.
Tom
AW~
^just to clarify, thats not what I was alluding to.
People have the right to not expect stuff being thrown on their head, and dont have to yield their rights. The role of ‘defensive’ driving, is just that…defensive. While the rules of the mountain/wild wild west can be put into effect, the social agreement for these trade routes is civilized behavior. Its a family friendly activity, play it safe, play it clean. Peaceful people are welcome…..and we should expect that our actions might have consequence. My post was saying that Jeana is a nicer person than I am…and not saying that the rules of the mountain should be enforced.
Jeana
Here’s the beta:
Canyon (2-3 hours)
The drainage steepens and you can either make a short rap or downclimb to a small tree that is rappel 1.
Rap 1- About 15 m ( 50 ft. ) to a small stance at a tree.
Rap 2 – The waterfall drops off at rappel 2, and the big rappels ahead come into view. Rappel about 57 m ( 188 ft. ), down to bolts on the east (rappeller’s left) side. This is a small stance, suitable for 4 if squeezed in. Semi-hanging for more than 2.
Rap 3 – A rope stretching 60 m ( 197 ft. ) rappel down to a flat section. There are 2 bolts on the rappeller’s left (east) side here, though most will be comfortable un-roping and walking a short distance to 2 bolts with long webbing over the edge on the right (looking down canyon) side of the watercourse. This is a great break spot. –Bruce set up Anchor then rappelled down. I was LMAR. When I got to the bottom of the Flat Section, we pulled the rope and was bagging it, that is when I got hit by a rock. I looked up and saw a person rappelling off of Rap2.
Rap 4 – Another 60 m ( 197 ft. ) rappel puts you on a ledge on the west side of the falls. Easy scrambling leads down a minute to the final drop.
Rap 5 – 2 bolts on the right (looking down canyon / east side) allow for a full 30 m ( 99 ft. ) rappel to the bottom.
Follow the bottom of the cliff west one minute to re-intersect the approach trail.
ratagonia
Thank you for the clarification. Clearly, though I have spent quite a bit of time on the GWI, I did not remember the layout very well.
Also clearly, it would have been wiser to walk over to the big flat area before bagging the rope, getting out of the shooting gallery as fast as possible, knowing there are people above you. Also, pulling the rope from ‘over there’ was probably a good idea too, as the falling rope often knocks down rocks.
Tom