Jman said:
Anyway……….people escape other forums looking for the greener grass and unfortunately don’t find it. It rarely is greener. Eventually someone WILL ruin it for you.
And there are some that always ruin the forum or experience for everyone else (and will always be that way). The way to respond to them is to don’t sink down to their level. Don’t name call or berate the other person (which you are now seeing here and of course Bogley).
Most of the time you ignore the screaming child, let them have a good cry (rant), name call and tell you how bad of a parent you are….then by the next day, most is forgiven (or forgotten).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Click to expand…
MrAdam
Here’s a link to some info and pics on Arizona Bugbane:
http://www.toddshikingguide.com/FloraFauna/Flora253.htm
Jolly Green
Rich, you’ve shared some great info here. I’ve never been in the I canyons and am not familiar with the endangered plant. Is the plant in Insomnia as well? These canyons always seem to get lumped together due to proximity, do you have any sense as to whether the possible restrictions would be for this general area or just specific to Illusions?
Anybody have pictures of the plant to share so those reading this might take special care in the area to not disturb what is specifically being studied?
Canyoncrazy
Right? I couldn’t believe someone was out in a canyon with all that rain we were getting….wow… Montana, You have all the fun! When we do get to catch up, you’ll have to fill us in on the fun you’ve been having in MT.
Absolutely! You know we’re both always willing to help. I’ve got some free time, so just let me know what you need.
-Sara
Rich Rudow
Sara, I been meaning to send you and Joe a note, but I’ve been playing in Montana Nothing like a good rescue to bring you back to reality. This USFS Illusions project is just getting started and it would super helpful if you and Joe could help out. I’ll hit you up sideband with a few thoughts.
Rich
Canyoncrazy
Dang Rich! I love how you are (always) able to sum matters up is such a perfect way, I agree 100% with you!
Let me know if you guys want pictures from the first explorations. I know I have pictures of the Bugbane, Todd does too. I may have pictures of Bugbane in all the West fork canyons, but I am not totally sure. I am sure I have photos of it growing in the I^ canyons.
-Sara
Rich Rudow
C’mon man, this is cyberspace. Reason and logic don’t live here.
Refreshingly, the Coconino NF found the money to hire experts to collect field data to determine if there are impacts, and to help determine what to do about it if found. The botanists are spending most of their time above the slot looking for the Bugbane reproducing colony(s) under the assumption that the plants in the slot are probably regularly cleansed. The new seeds must come from somewhere. They will go through the slot too comparing old photos to the current state of things.
Too often we face a closure, with no supporting data, because it’s an easy button for the land managers. I’m encouraged in this case that science is leading the way.
Rich
ratagonia
I understand.
Often plants are considered rare and/or endangered because the biologists have not looked around (a lot) in inconvenient terrain for more colonies. There is such a plant in Zion, that, now that I am aware of it, I see in quite a few places. But it grows high on cliffs, and biologists don’t go there much.
Jus’ Sayin’ – that the designation of a plant (or animal) are rare or endangered does not meant that it is. Before closure of publicly-owned land takes place, biologists should look harder for colonies of the plant.
Tom
Rich Rudow
Tom, in my view the broader issue is going to be related to access.
For those of you who haven’t followed the history of this remarkable canyon, the story of Illusions is shaping up to become a poster child for how this community brought regulation on itself. The first descenders purposely chose not to publish the canyon because it contained an endangered plant (Arizona Bugbane) and it was a particularly advanced and dangerous slot. A few individuals, who obtained beta courtesy of the first descenders, decided to “out” the canyon on the web mainly to spite the first descenders. And (many inexperienced) people came. The canyon next store (Insomnia) had a truly difficult, expensive, and highly publicized rescue where a canyoneer nearly died. A local company decided that rescue in Illusions was inevitable too and ran a SAR training course in Illusions where they lit fires, using plants in the canyon for fuel, as a way of trying to locate an injured canyoneer from the rim above. The fires caught the attention of the land manager (USFS), and the company was cited. A large forest fire then burned the mesa above Illusions and Insomnia. More recently, canyoneers published an exit on the web that negated the need for a long car shuttle, and WAYYYYY more people came. Now we really have an Illusions rescue. The resources deployed on the rescue were ENORMOUS, but with one-way emergency signaling devices (like SPOT & PLB’s) the emergency responders didn’t know if someone was near death (like Insomnia) or safe with a broken leg (like Illusions). They had to bring everything they had at their disposal, just in case, and I’m sure the Insomnia rescue was in the back of their minds. The weather forecast on the day of the rescue just adds fodder to the narrative that canyoneers are a bunch of “extreme sports” enthusiasts who often lack good judgement.
Just prior to the Illusions accident, the USFS funded a science study to begin an assessment of the recreational impacts of canyoning on Illusions Canyon. I was asked to help out. The survey starts at the end of August and will include botanists and other experts. You can begin to see where this stone is rolling ….
I hope Illusions doesn’t get closed, but it feels like some kind of access restriction is coming our way. We’re all to blame. It’s death by a thousand cuts. This community needs to be more thoughtful about our impacts in these places if we want the right to continue to visit.
Thanks for listening –
Rich
spinesnaper
AW: The answer to canyoneering accidents in California is to close the canyon so I suspect you are right.
AW~
California?
http://azdailysun.com/news/opinion/…cle_db191b19-2282-5246-b654-0c1efa3395f8.html
A salute to rescuers, but bill the rescuees
“Yet there they were on Saturday, six friends attempting to traverse the canyon from its head to the bottom where it joins West Fork in Oak Creek Canyon. This despite a forecast for severe thunderstorms all weekend and a canyon rated among the most difficult and technical in all of Arizona.
So it wasn’t surprising that the expedition came to a sad end. One member broke his leg, then was forced by bad weather to shelter overnight in the canyon with the rest of the party. He was airlifted out Sunday morning, followed by his buddies…….
As for Illusions Canyon, it is so steep and remote it was discovered only in 2005. Since then, word has spread on the Internet – a commercial rescue training company even used it for a course, setting a fire that endangered a rare plant and resulted in a citation and fine.
But the Coconino National Forest has yet to post any warnings or attempt to limit recreational access. At the least, we would think the Forest Service would treat such a special and fragile place like the BLM treats The Wave in southern Utah – requiring registration and a limit of 20 hikers a day. An alternative would be to allow canyoneers into Illusions Canyon only with a highly trained guide who has the authority to cancel the trip due to bad weather or other adverse conditions.
Without some kind of rules, supervision and financial responsibility, canyoneering will only generate more emergencies (this was not the first rescue in Illusions Canyon) that put the safety of rescuers at risk. If emergency agencies are not willing to charge for extractions, then at least canyoneers should face fines for violating access and safety rules that might act as deterrents and also help to defray costs……”
ratagonia
An editorial in some RAG. eh?
RAGs pay people to write stories and editorials about things they know very little about.
I have never met a SAR person that thinks rescuees should be billed, the sheriff in Summit County excepted.
This is the perfect example of something that should be paid by taxpayers. Low probability risk spread out among a vast number of people. SAR dollars are mostly spent on kids wandering away from camp and (further north) lost snowmobilers. In Zion, the majority is spent on hikers twisting their ankles in Orderville and The Narrows.
While the THREAT of rescuees being billed makes for a good story, the actuality is that this will never happen (note exception: when doing something illegal, CAN be billed.)
(Wait, is this Bogley???)
Tom
Canyoncrazy
AW~, Just to update you, If you or anyone who is wondering, YES Coconino is working on accessing if a permit system can/may be utilized, permanent warning signs/ trail registers (much better than the ones Ram hated we installed years ago. I’m not sure if it was the register themselves or that they were tubular neon-yellow and hot pink lol) It’s a matter of “when” and “how” working with the governments time frame. Anyone who has worked for any Government job knows….. It takes time. lots of time…..
The plant, Arizona Bugbane, is still an issue and that point is not at rest yet. The minuscule fine the training company incurred was by all standards a bit low for the end result, damage to the canyon’s flora, blackened walls, and lack of years of proper permitting….. I’d bet politics were involved there too. It’s hard to be harsh to a company that trains your SAR people, no? hummmmm….. I may have learned a thing or two working for YCSO….lol!
100% agreement in your final statements. 100%. The cost of the rescue in Insomnia was the reason there was a fundraiser by the CC, to help “pay” for some of the equipment the SAR team now needs. Remember that one? The guy lost control on his speed on the 315′ rap, fell, shattered his pelvis, ruptured spleen, other injuries I can’t remember off the top of my head. The amazing SAR people descended Insomnia, in the dark, blind, didn’t know where to find the beta on the canyon. Hence the public posting of the beta, on here.
Just so you know, if anyone wanted too, or was wondering.
-Sara
Rick Demarest
Ken,
Could you clarify this please? I’m not aware of any canyons that have been or are presently closed because of canyoneering accidents. If that is the case, the CAC would like to engage the land managers and see if we can work out a solution to reopen them. Thanks
spinesnaper
I am referring to what happened in Eaton Canyon.
Rick Demarest
Thank you. However, Eaton Canyon was not closed because of canyoneering accidents. The closure was the trail (from the bottom) and a portion of the lower canyon that included the waterfall because the local teenage set couldn’t resist trying to find new ways to hurt themselves. When the USFS closed the trail and waterfall it also made it impossible to complete the canyon from the top (canyoneering). BTW – Sonny will be posting an update to Eaton Canyon a bit later with a letter outlining the success of the permit system.
Back OT…..
spinesnaper
Rick
To an administrator, anyone in a canyon is a canyoneer. However, the hard work done to create a permit system for “real” canyoneers is appreciated.
AW~
I dont think you will come across many people in a closed canyon
I think the point is that telling a land manager you have a PLB will not sway them from doing something about a “large” number of rescues.
spinesnaper
Mike: I think you will be perfectly safe without a personal locator beacon. We will give you a pass.
Sara: Not only will I activate my PLB for you, I will also press the “won’t make it for dinner” and “send fresh underwear” buttons on your SPOT. Those are buttons right? I wouldn’t know because who reads. LOL.
PS. I love both forums.
Ken
Canyoncrazy
Agreed! lol!
I meant to tell you that about the green light on the SPOT, that’s how my buddy knew it finally was able to send. I had to ask him =)
-Sara
Ps what’s this Bogley thing??? I was on canyonegroups prior to the CC, but no bogley-thingy