As I waiting my turn on the last rap in heaps I decided to check my phone since I could see the lodge. Not only did I have service, but 8 messages and a voicemail from a friend who had been in contact with one of the SAR members on the rescue. Since I was not responding he was worried it was me being short hauled out. I promptly called him and reassured him it was not me.
According to my friend, the accident occurred on Saturday. The canyon received heavy rain Saturday starting about 4 and lasting half the night. The injured was short hauled out via DPS helicopter at about 8:00am Sunday morning. The other 5 were lifted via a military bird that was in the area. They were in the wide section before the last rappel.
Later on the drive home I learned I know one of the person that was in the team and have met another. I think it was a fractured ankle, possibly both, but I am not sure since I got this info through the grapevine. I would like to know more details of the accident (this was an experienced group) and how they coped with the canyon flashing and going through the night wet and cold. I am glad everyone made it out safe.
spinesnaper
OMG, the Canyon Collective has become Bogley. Sara and Mike, please know that if I come upon either of you crumpled and injured in the backcountry, I will activate my PLB on your behalf and do everything in my power to save you.
Jman
I don’t post here often but have warmed up to the site especially lately when it comes to, what I call, “Tom’s Lunch & Learn”. Aka Tech Tips. For lunch at work, I’ll read one of his tech tips and learn a ton. Good stuff.
Anyway……….people escape other forums looking for the greener grass and unfortunately don’t find it. It rarely is greener. Eventually someone WILL ruin it for you.
And there are some that always ruin the forum or experience for everyone else (and will always be that way). The way to respond to them is to don’t sink down to their level. Don’t name call or berate the other person (which you are now seeing here and of course Bogley).
Most of the time you ignore the screaming child, let them have a good cry (rant), name call and tell you how bad of a parent you are….then by the next day, most is forgiven (or forgotten).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mike Zampino
Hmmm – I had to review my posts because I did not think I name called or berated anyone. I did comment on the lengthy post by Ken and quoted a popular news clip that has been passed around as an attempy to be humorous. Maybe I am being unjustly grouped with others. I hope that is the case.
Anyway, I still think you two are mostly in argeement. Personnaly, I do not carry one and instead leave our plans with an individual who knows the planned route and expected completion time/date and knows when to initiate a rescue (which may not be until the next day as we carry gear for emergency bivys). I saw on another post that the light turns green on a SPOT if the signal gets out. So that kind of answered my original question.
Mike Zampino
Geeze Ken. I read the first few paragraphs, but stopped when you added in avalanche beacons. It would have been easier to just agree with sara. “Ain’t nobody got time for this”.
Sara, I broke mine on something less steep than a boat ramp. 100 yards from the road. So I’m just saying that you don’t necessarily have to be taking chances to have an accident. I agree completely that with the popularity of these and other canyons the frequency of incidents is going to escalate. The weekend I was in barney, I heard there were at least 17 people in illusions. 🙁
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Canyoncrazy
RIGHT?! lol!! Oooooh myyyyy gawddddd Ken!
I totally agree Mike, I sprained mine years ago when I kicked a tree- please don’t ask- and broke a bone in the bottom of my foot in 2009 wearing high heels at the Olympia. I stepped off of a curb and “snap”. YES Injuries can happen at any time, any place anywhere. Sadly. That is my point, with the amount of people frequenting the canyon compounded with the fact that there are adventure companies and groups of the like leading through those canyons, it’s just a matter of time for another rescue. Or worse. They are being taken as serious as an easy 1h canyon like Bear in WCC, when they are anything but “easy”.
The PLB worked for them, they were lucky on many levels. First and foremost they were able to get a signal out, more importantly the PLB worked especially considering that heavy rain was clearly in the forecast for that weekend -making flash flood danger very high- and with out the PLB, they may have been part of a recovery mission verses a rescue mission.
That’s ALL I was trying to sate in the 1st place- lol! They were lucky, what can be learned form this?! Oh that, and don’t be in a rescue mission twice in a year…… Yea!! down with PLBs!!! They all suck!!! Just kidding!! If anything have “plan B” that is not a battery powered device…. Perhaps a check-in person, reliable, who will notify the SAR if you are not back by a designated time and date? So when your PLB fails, or Cell fails, someone will know where you are, skills you have, where to look and who is all in the group. When I’m caving, PLBs won’t work hence why I am of the “don’t rely on them” mindset. Having a person be your contact check-in, That alone would save a lot more lives and as one person knows, his arm.
-Sara
spinesnaper
Sara
I was giving you a hard time because it is very popular to bash PLB and not carry them or, less commonly, have the device but not be expert in their use. Both situations are not helpful.
Here is what Rocky Mountain Rescue Group has to say about them: (http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/about_PLBs.php)
About personal emergency beacons
Emergency alert beacons are small, handheld devices that can alert appropriate authorities to a wilderness or marine emergency. For wilderness use, there are two main types of beacons: Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs), which work on the COSPAS-SARSAT network, and the SPOTbeacon, which works on the GEOS network. PLBs and SPOTs have been used successfully to direct rescuers to emergency backcountry situations, but both systems have their limitations, as well as their differences.
Before we go further into the details of beacons, three notes of caution:
First, since these are electronic devices and rely on batteries, complicated circuits, satellites and ground based systems, their use does not assure that assistance will be timely, and they may not work at all when you really need them. The use of PLBs, SPOTs, or other devices should only be viewed as a way to send out a call for help when you have no other options. They should not be used other than in true emergency situations. RMRG provides an online Safety in the Mountains brochure that discusses safety concerns when going into the backcountry.
A second note of caution: purchase of these beacons requires registration of the beacon before first use. The SPOT will not work without first being activated and registered. Other PLBs, however can be used without registration, but we highly discourage this. In case of a real emergency, not having registered your PLB before your trip significantly decreases the chance of a successful rescue. A registered PLB or SPOT allows rescue teams to gain valuable information from your emergency contact about your trip objectives, number in the party, possible medical conditions, gear you are carrying, etc.
Third, PLBs and SPOTs are not avalanche transceivers or beacons. Avalanche transceivers transmit and receive on a completely different frequency (457 KHz) and are typically received by similar units, carried by companions, less than 100 meters away. This frequency transmits well through snow, unlike the PLB or SPOT transmissions. Avalanche transceivers are intended to facilitate the rapid location by a nearby companion of a person who has been trapped under snow in an avalanche. Avalanche transceivers do not transmit to satellites. PLBs and SPOTs do not transmit well through snow and are not received by other PLBs or SPOTs. Avalanche transceivers are valuable and potentially life saving devices for people traveling through areas where avalanches are possible.
The nuts and bolts of personal beacon systems: PLBs and SPOT
[Note: RMRG does not endorse commercial products and no implications favoring one product over another should be taken from this page.]
PLBs and SPOTs are popular products and both can be (and have been) very useful devices for backcountry emergencies, but it important to understand their similarities and differences. First, the key similarity: Upon activation of their emergency modes, both the SPOT and PLB systems attempt to communicate with a rescue coordination center (RCC) via satellite. The RCC receives the signal, processes it and gathers as much information as possible, and then passes notification along to the appropriate local rescue agency (in the case of Colorado, the Colorado Search and Rescue Board is first contacted, which then contacts the local Sheriff).
Personal Locator Beacons
Upon activation of the emergency mode, PLBs send a 5 watt signal to the COSPAS-SARSAT satellite network on the standard emergency radio frequency of 406 MHz. For inland emergencies in the U.S., the U.S. Air Force Rescue Coordination Center is the RCC that receives and processes the signal. Lacking any other information (i.e, GPS coordinates also transmitted), the 406 MHz signal can help the RCC locate the signal to within 2-3 miles.
In addition to the 406 MHz satellite signal, modern PLBs also transmit a homing signal on 121.5 MHz (a long-standing emergency frequency; an emergency distress signal is also transmitted on 121.5 MHz when a small airplane crashes) and some are also equipped with a GPS. The 121.5 MHz homing signal is for field teams equipped with radio Direction-Finding (DF) technology to more easily find the beacon. (RMRG maintains equipment and a high level of competency for DF missions, but not every mountain rescue team is so fortunate.) PLBs equipped with GPS attempt to also send accurate coordinates to the RCC, allowing for pin-point location accuracy in many cases. The most effective PLB will have 406 MHz, 121.5 MHz and a GPS. Note that some very old “PLB” units only transmit on 121.5 MHz and do not transmit on 406 MHz. Other devices use the name “Personal Locator Beacon,” but are not COSPAS-SARSAT compliant.
On the other hand, some newer PLB’s include capability to send messages such as “I’m OK” and mapping information to friends. These messages are transmitted on the regular COSPAS-SARSAT satellite network.
Drawbacks: Many PLBs have some limited self-test features, but most PLBs’ functionality can only be verified at a system level at the time of an emergency. For most units, PLB activation means “life threatening emergency” and thus should only be used when an emergency is happening. (Do not activate it for fun or testing!) The PLB self-test can only be used sparingly as it depletes the batteries. One PLB type can only be self-tested once every 6 months. The expensive PLB battery must be replaced every 5 years regardless of use. Failure to maintain the battery properly means that the beacon may not work when needed.
If you get a PLB, we strongly recommend that you purchase one that is COSPAS-SARSAT compliant, has a GPS, and transmits on both 406 MHz and 121.5 MHz.
SPOT and Satellite Communication/GPS Only Beacons
The SPOT system uses a higher frequency (1610 MHz) to communicate with its RCC, which is operated by Globalstar (a NASDAQ-listed for-profit company). The SPOT does have a GPS, but does not transmit a homing signal on 121.5 MHz. While the 5 watt 406 MHz signal used by PLBs can be used to get an approximate location (within 2-3 miles), the SPOTs 1610 MHz signal is transmitted at weaker power and cannot be used for an approximate position. Therefore, in emergency communication, the SPOT relies solely upon the GPS for transmitting location information.
The SPOT must have a line-of-site to the sky both to acquire position with the GPS and to send a message to satellites. This reduces their coverage as compared to the PLB. (In light forest they might work, but in heavy forest in a deep canyon they may not.) It is possible that a SPOT might send a distress alert without a location, or with an inaccurate location, illustrating the importance of leaving trip itinerary information with a trusted emergency contact known by SPOTs RCC.
While the SPOT has reduced coverage compared with PLBs, there are other things to consider that make it useful to have. The SPOT can be used to send “OK” messages to your trusted contact. This keeps folks at home assured of your well-being and location. It can also mitigate some coverage concerns because you can send “OK” messages in good locations and if a problem happens where you cannot send a message, then after a time (like overnight) your trusted contact can initiate an (albeit delayed) emergency response. If you are prepared to stay overnight, as you should be, then this is a reasonable outcome. Your previous “OK” messages can be used by searchers as a “last known location” to start a search for you. The “OK” message feature also allows the SPOT to be tested at home and in the field at various locations. This can build confidence that the SPOT will work when you need it to. Deep forest situations can be tested. The SPOT batteries are simple lithium-ion designs that are user-replaceable, so spare batteries can be carried. The SPOT 1 can be configured to send a “Request Assistance” (aka “Help”) message that is distinct from the “Emergency Response” (aka “911”) message (the SPOT 2 has this as a devoted feature). The “Request Assistance” message is useful in that it conveys enough of the nature of the situation that a full emergency response is not required. It is good for getting a little help via a trusted friend or an outfitter rather than launch a full rescue response. From a rescue standpoint, any communication that can convey the nature of the emergency can help define an appropriate rescue response. Features like “OK” messages, field-testing and “Request Assistance” messages that augment the typical “Emergency Response” message are useful attributes.
Reliability
Empirical data of rescues show that both PLB and SPOT technologies are effective if maintained and used properly. If the GPS in the unit gets a GPS lock, then the location provided to rescuers is very precise and little “searching” is required as long as the user does not move. Both technologies can suffer from user error as well. This is typically caused by an emergency activation when there is no real emergency. This causes the needless deployment of rescue resources. Many PLBs are not registered and thus there is no emergency contact information associated with them and this causes problems when there are sporadic activations.
The satellite system for PLBs is the same system used by worldwide Maritime EPIRBs and thus many nations are vested in its performance and reliability. The SPOT devices are using a private satellite communication system with partial world coverage. You will need to evaluate the multi-government satellite system on one hand vs. a commercial for-profit satellite system on the other with regards to reliability and longevity. This may or may not have any future implications as to the utility of the technologies for yourself and where you want to use the device.
Costs
It is hard to compare costs between PLBs and SPOT since the feature set is different between the technologies. Besides the initial unit cost, PLBs require expensive battery changes that need to be considered, while SPOTs have a subscription fee for emergency and non-emergency features. Both are affordable for much of the recreating public. Frivolous use of a PLB or SPOT can lead to fines or legal troubles. Note: The Rocky Mountain Rescue Group does not charge people for call-outs regardless of the degree of the emergency.
Biggest search and rescue issues
Ultimately, if you own and then activate a SPOT or PLB in a true wilderness emergency, you are doing so under the hope that you will be rescued in a reasonable amount of time. It is to your best advantage to help us help you make your rescue successful. From the perspective of a mountain rescue agency, these are the most problematic issues regarding emergency beacon activation:
User errors such as activating a full emergency response by accident or when not necessary.
Users not knowing how to use the device properly causing sporadic transmissions, inconsistent messages or message cancellations.
Not telling a trusted emergency contact your plans.
Not registering your device or not keeping the emergency contact information current.
Not telling your trusted emergency contact what to do for the various messages, message cancellations, or absence of OK or Tracking messages that the device might produce.
As with any equipment you trust your life to, take the time to learn about any device, and how to use it expertly. These devices should not be viewed as a license to make poor decisions in the wilderness. They may assist rescuers in reaching you, hopefully before it is too late
Canyoncrazy
Hey Mike
Yes they both are sold as PLB’s- you are SPOT on =) . As spinesnaper pointed out. AS I was simply stating in post #1 it’s foolish to place your life on anything that requires batteries, and above he kind of says the same thing- after giving me a hard time. lol!
There are multiple places in Illusions they could had downclimbed. IF it is the spot I am thinking it is, It was bolted on our first decent then later the bolt was removed as it was deemed unnecessary. If it is one of the others, I know I’ve been the meat anchor for a hand line on those during wetter descents. You can break or get injured at any time in either of those canyons, or in any canyon for that matter. Just the high frequency of visitation is going to escalate the chances of someone getting injured or needing rescue. So far the canyon has been full, the 1st time we were reconning it was low. Very low. In Full on Keeper mode. There are many keepers in both those canyons.
-Sara
spinesnaper
PLBs are last resort devices. Even the 5 watt unit may or may not get a signal out of a canyon. Canyons with limited sky views will interfere with the transmission of the 5 watt signal. Somewhere posted on the internet is a study of PLB that was done in Zion National Park. Something like less than 50% of the signals were received. That means that unless you can get your 5 watt PLB to an open area, the likelihood of your signal being received by NOAA satellites is low but increases over the 24 hours the device will operate before the battery dies. Unlike the spot which uses replaceable lithium AAA batteries, PLB use proprietary sealed lithium batteries, a more reliable design. The manufacture of the SPOT recommends that you carry extra batteries for the device. Generally the PLB’s have a higher water resistance than the SPOT. Can the SPOT be used to transmit a distress signal? Yes it can but not as reliably as a personal locator beacon. It needs much more open terrain for its low power transmitter to connect with a satellite. I believe the SPOT transmitter puts out less than 1 watt of power. I carry the PLB with the intention of calling for a rescue under the worst circumstances. The key with any of this technology is to throughly understand the limitations of whatever device you are using.
Ken
Mike Zampino
I thought the SPOT was sold as a personal locator beacon in addition to being able to send messages. If you buy the service don’t you get an insurance policy with it to pay for your rescue? But I don’t know for sure because I don’t carry one. You both make valid points. I agree you should not solely rely on them to save you, but chances are they would help speed up a rescue even if the coordinates are not SPOT on. (hehe) I was wondering though…if they cannot get the signal out does the unit indicate this? Because that would really suck if they had to assume a signal got out but it didn’t. And had someone gone 15 minutes further down canyon they would have got the signal out. Just wondering.
Sara, you seem to infer that the DC that he broke his ankle on should have been hand lined. 1)As you know the DCs in Illusions are not that difficult and 2)you don’t need to be DCing to roll and break an ankle.
Jay Wisocki
Everyone be careful out there, This type of injury could happen to anyone at anytime. Minimize injury, No need to rush through these canyons at record speed. Glad they were able to use the sneak to get supplies for the night.
spinesnaper
Joe
You must not own one of these. They are waterproof. Yes, you could drop an 1800 lb rock on your device and breach the case. Then I suppose the unit would not work. The Spot is not a personal locator beacon. A spot is a “satellite messenger” designed for “communication options.” A PBL has a 5 watt transmitter and has a battery with a 6 year half life. The spot is meant as an alternative to a cell phone for communicating. Here is what REI says:
“Personal locator beacons are high-powered (typically, 5 watts) devices designed primarily to send out a personalized emergency distress signal. They generally require an open view of the sky to transmit successfully.
PLBs are the land-based equivalents of Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons (EPIRBs), a technology that has been in use for decades in marine environments. Over the years, these devices are estimated to have saved more than 33,000 lives.
Important: A Personal Locator Beacon should be activated only in situations of grave and imminent danger, and only as a last resort when all means of self-rescue have been exhausted.”
Don’t confuse the two types of devices. Your friend choose a less expensive device to carry that is not intended as a primary rescue device, like a personal locator beacon. The Spot is an entertainment device. It is so friends and family can track your progress in the back country. It has a low power transmitter that has difficulty reliably connecting with its satellite system. It is not a rescue device.
Ken
Canyoncrazy
It’s Sara, If you read my 1st post.
Yes I own one, I do a bit of solo hiking, backpacking so I was requested to carry one.
Yes they are waterproof-for a time-, but nothing is fool proof, anything can break or be faulty. REI: “waterproof down to 16 ft. for up to an hour and 33 ft. for up to 10 min.”, meaning, not 100% waterproof. If you bet you life on it, that’s your choice. Not mine.
Thanks, Ken for the technical information from REI-
“They generally require an open view of the sky to transmit successfully” My point exactly.
It’s still has a battery/energy source. REI: “Easily self-test the circuitry, battery power” batteries fail. Batteries corrode and you’d never know.
My friend was issued the SPOT through his work, not his choice, the National Park Service intention was for it to be a rescue device.
No I am not getting them confused, people use them both as rescue devices, along with their cell phones. Many people think they will always get a signal. How many times have you heard that one form the rescued, in their interview?
Had the group Not been able to get a “clear view of the sky”, no signal would had been put out and even when they did, it sent the wrong point in the wrong canyon- wasting time.
Thank you, but please Don’t talk/type to me like I’m a moron.
I understand the difference and helpfulness of both/either devices.
Our dependence on technology gives a false sense of security to the person with the PLB. How many times have you been in a canyon that you could clearly see the sky? Had they not been able to exit the canyon and activate the device, they May have not gotten the signal out at all. Where they were stuck with the injured there is a very small shot of the sky, might had worked might had not. Had the injured been in other parts of the canyon, there is not much sky available for a signal. They are lucky that they weren’t washed away in the flash flood, since thunderstorms were eminent for the entire Coconino & Yavapai counties.
spinesnaper
More PLB bashing. Sounds like it helped. Systems are not perfect but they are making a difference.
Canyoncrazy
If I wanted to PLB bash I would point out that Batteries fail, electronics and water don’t mix, who has not had a dry bag leak, a keg not have the lid seated correctly one time or another, plus they were lucky to get a signal. They are helpful, yes, but not something to rely on. Batteries fail, corrode, signals are hard to send out in most canyons. This one sent the location as they were in the canyon next door wasting valuable time and energy of the SAR teams.
Signals getting out are NOT a guarantee, As my buddy found out- he had to hike for and hour bleeding, shattered wrist, multiple other injuries form falling when a part of the trail gave away in a remote spot of the GC, to get to a location that his SPOT was able to send out a SOS signal. Lucky for him he was able to walk far enough to get a signal, or he would had bled to death. His boss did know where he was, so they would had come looking for him IF he had not checked in on the date he was supposed too.
Canyoncrazy
I hope there are some Lessons learned on this one…. Like, Don’t canyon when storms are above the canyon you are going down? Or maybe, downclimbing is a lot harder than upclimbing especially in wet conditions, when in doubt hand lines are amazing… Don’t place your safety on anything that takes batteries- Gps, Cell phones, PLB, it gives you a false sense of security. Oh and if you are in a rescue party- the one being rescued, injured or by-stander-hiking-partner of the one injured, you DON’T want to be in another rescue in less than a year…. IF you are, then perhaps, maybe you need to pay for your helicopter ride and some of the rescue fees. A sincere thanks to all the rescue people who devote their free time and risk themselves to pull people like these out of the predicaments they find themselves in.
This is Sara not Joe.
It’s been a very high number of rescues this year so far. Stay safe.
http://www.coconino.az.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1274
Multi-Agency Response to Injured Hiker in the West Fork of Oak Creek Canyon
Oak Creek Canyon, AZ – On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at approximately 4:07 pm the Coconino County Sheriff’s Office received a call from a representative of the Arizona Department of Emergency Management (ADEM) advising that a Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) had been activated with GPS coordinates in Illusions Canyon located within the West Fork of Oak Creek Canyon. ADEM personnel determined who the registered owner of the device was and also advised that Air Force Personnel received the emergency signal as well. At this point a multi-agency response was initiated. Participating agencies included Coconino County Sheriff’s Office, Coconino County Sheriff’s Search and Rescue, US Air Force 55th Aerial Rescue Squadron based out of Davis Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Sedona Fire District (SFD), the Arizona Department of Emergency Management and Arizona Department of Public Safety (DPS) Air Rescue based in Flagstaff.
At about 4:52 pm the Northern Arizona 911 reception center received a cell phone call from an individual who identified himself as a member of the hiking party that included the victim who was the subject of the activated PLB device. The caller advised that the victim was located in the area of the confluence of West Fork. According to the caller the victim suffered a broken leg at approximately 11:00 am that day and members of his party were not able to access cell phone service from the victim’s location. The caller hiked out of the canyon to a location where he could access cell phone service.
By 5:20 pm the CCSO resident deputy in Oak Creek Canyon and a Sedona firefighter were at the Call of the Canyon which is the trail head for West Fork. Two Sedona Fire Department Technical Rescue Teams were deployed into the West Fork of Oak Creek Canyon on foot in an attempt to locate the victim. DPS Rescue Helicopter was not able to assist on Saturday due to active thunderstorms in the area. By 7:50 pm two CCSO SAR teams were at the top of the rim and established an Incident Command Post (ICP) off of Woody Mountain Road. Because of the weather and inability to launch a heli-rescue, the victim and others in the party were asked to shelter in place. Rescue crews on the ground also staged at the ICP overnight, camping in the rain and thunder storms.
At about 6:00 am on Sunday morning rescuers received a break in the storm activity. The DPS helicopter with a CCSO SAR technical rescue operator on board flew the area and located the party of six including the victim. Two SFD technical rescue operators were inserted into the canyon via a helicopter rappel from the DPS aircraft. A CCSO SAR technical rescue ground team was staged at the rim. The DPS Ranger helicopter extracted the victim and a SFD rescuer using the Short Haul method during which the rescuer and victim are suspended on a line underneath the helicopter and flown to a safe area in this case the parking lot of the West Fork of Oak Creek trail head. Sedona Fire transported the victim to the Flagstaff Medical Level One Trauma Center via ground ambulance. Two HH 60 Pave Hawk helicopters from the USAF 55th Air Rescue Squadron extracted the remaining 5 members of the victim’s party by hoisting them from the ground into the hoovering helicopters.
Mike Zampino
Opps – that’s not reassuring to PLB users. It’s news story so I only expect them to get maybe 20% of the story accurate. lol
Mike Zampino
http://www.12news.com/story/news/lo…s-continue-search-missing-oak-creek/30381393/
MrAdam
I guess the GPS signal from the PLB pegged them at the big rap in Insomnia, when they were actually in Illusions.
MrAdam
I am facebook friends with a couple of the people that were involved and have seen a few posts from them today, so this is a bit of second hand info but……
One of the crew broke his lower leg/ankle on the corkscrew downclmb/slide midway thru the canyon when his leg was trapped at a weird angle between him and the rock. The crew was able to stabalize the injured’s ankle and the injured was able to complete a couple more rappels to get to the open area between the big rappels. After they realized they would be there for the night, a couple of the crew used the sneak route to get back to the vehilces for supplies. They returned to the injured set up camp only to have to move to higher ground when the canyon flashed during the night.
I believe Mike was correct with the timeline for the rescue the next day. I will see if I can get one of the crew to post the full story here.