FIRST TIMERS:
On my Heaps and Imlay trips, it was the first time through for all the members of our group. I don’t see this as being a problem if your group is experienced and has the physical conditioning. Imlay was in keeper mode, Heaps was full. I found both to be long, but not that difficult. Of course “difficult” is relative. Plus personally it is less desirable to go through a canyon following someone who has already been though and pointing out all the aspects. I want to figure things out for myself and problem solve. YMMV. If I am taking someone through a canyon I have been through before I let them take the point and experience it for themselves.
CLIMBERS:
I know many climbers that could easily tackle Heaps or Imlay. I think it is a generalization to insinuate that climbers do not have the skills to canyoneer and a bit elitist. I am mainly referring to trad or big wall climbers, not the sport (climb and lower) climber. I know there are canyon specific skills that make things safer/easier/more efficient/etc, but most the safety/rescue skills are similar.
DEVICES:
I am not going to deny I love my advanced devices and I they are more versatile, but again I know many people who are comfortable and skilled enough to do the last rap in Heaps on an ATC or even a Muunter (if needed) for that matter. Again, it all “DEPENDS” on ones experience level and knowing what works for them.
Rapterman
Pink-
Wow, I am slow
After recovering from shock realized it was a c—fight!
good one
Stevee B
Levin, Roger Briggs, Nat, Rick Green… I’m hardly fit to whiff their farts from upcanyon. What a treat it’s been to share some slots with them.
I tend to think in the Heaps equation it’s less about being a good climber as it is about being a good learner and a good problem solver. Lots of good climbers are both of those things but not all.
*Two* 300′ 8mm ropes stashed at the Emerald Pool is the way to go. Lower Ram on the Munter/mule 200’/100′ and everyone else gets to take the plush ride. Amazing how much prettier that view is when you don’t feel like you’re hanging from a single strand of spaghetti.
Brian in SLC
Ah, yeeaah. Double strand, baby.
pynkchink
As I sip on my morning coffee reading this banter in the boiling Vegas heat, I think this picture describes what I have learnt from the thread.
Mike Zampino
Classic! Too funny
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Brian in SLC
Aha! I knew it…
Hmmm…Nat S….seem to recall he mighta done some…uhhh…what’s it called…ummm….climbing?
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/nats-traverse/105734816
A traverse? Maybe he was practicing for canyoneering…ha ha!
(That Stevee B is no slouch, either, and, I’ve seen Spidey climb…hmm…most all climbers….hmm….we see how you roll….).
Ram
I keep good company for sure. Nat has perhaps the largest X canyon resume. The others,Stevee and Spidey have done the hardest stuff we know of. Lucky I was not more than a rim guy on those. Lots of others Denali Mike, Big John, Luke, Landon, Brejcha, Rick Green and many more. How about this one too. I wanted to get Aaron thru Heaps when he turned 14 Who did I recruit? Steve Levin and Mike Munger. Check their credentials on Google. They were around doing two grade 4 walls a day. Took the time to come along. Later on, Levin brought Roger Briggs out with us. He of over 100 Long’s Peak Diamond ascents and much more. The dust in the canyon aggravated some asthma, but hey, they did some visionary stuff too. Don’t forget our own Charley Oliver as having an impressive resume in both sports……..
I ain’t dissing all very good to great climbers. They are an impressive lot, you included. Mr Cabe has many first ascents and an impressive Alaska resume too….But for every superstar climber story, there is a tale like this 😉
https://awclimbingadventures.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/the-epic-sandthrax-debacle/
Canyonero
I prefer my CRITR to an ATC for rappelling. No doubt about it.
I also prefer carrying one 8 mm rope and a 3 mm pull cord to two 8-10 mm ropes.
I also agree with Ram that many climbers do not have the climbing skills needed to navigate difficult slot canyons. Although if you can do 5.9 squeeze chimney competently, that goes a long way. 5.12 face doesn’t mean 5.9 chimney, and most 5.12 is face. That said, I prefer having a 5.12 climber along to a 5.6 climber, all else being equal.
Brian in SLC
Geez…pickin’ on those poor, poor 5.12 climbers… Well, let’s look at the data and the claim that most 5.12’s are these so-called face climbs. Starting with areas that are known for canyons, so, similar terrain for these weak sauce 5.12 climbers:
Moab: 5.12 around Moab? According to the ‘proj database, 37 sport routes (which usually implies face climbing). 206 trad. The majority probably at Indian Creek. So, crack, off fingers, off width, not an easy grade in the desert. I’m sure these folks would suffer mightily in an R-rated 5.8 silo traverse.
Zion? Has 16 routes at the 5.12 level. One is a sport route (that famous one in the Kolob area). That’s one sport route. Is all.
The Swell? 14 5.12’s. 1 sport route.
Lake Powell? Well, the kids have kept that area quiet. Only 4 routes, all trad, in the Mtnproj database. Rumor has the fellers who climb 5.12 down there solo Sandthrax on their rest days, and, think its only 5.8. But, that’s just a rumor. Speakin’ of North Wash…
https://vimeo.com/channels/500578/16246041
Ok, let’s go to an area which has canyons, is in the desert, and, has a fair amount of climbing…
Red Rocks. Ok, now we’re talkin’. 170 routes at the 5.12 level. Only a paltry 39 trad routes. The rest are those clip up face climbs. Ahh…I see where this face climbing being limited to 5.12 terrain comes from now. Whew.
Climbers that don’t have climbing skills…heavy sigh. What IS the world coming to.
Poor gal…would probably poop herself on an unprotected traverse in a canyon…
Fun stuff…
Ram
OK, I will come clean. The last 5.12 climber I went with Stevee B. brought. He was slow on the stemming, but my real PEEve with him was this….We were in Bishop about to do the easier X part, not the insane stuff later done by Spidey and Rick Green. Nat S. and I go and drop a rope over near an escape. When I come back, I prepare by for the stemming, this hot May day by dunking my armor in the one pothole around. The armor is a shorty wet suit. I put it on and I notice that people are looking away from me and each other. They have embarrassed smiles and look like they want to bust…..then it hits me……our new to the desert 5.12 climber must have used this small pothole as a urinal. I KNEW it was him. I looked at everyone and said…..”He peed in there, didn’t he?” The laughter exploded.
I wore the damn thing anyway and with tongue firmly in cheek, I declare that I have had little use for 5.12 climbers, in slots, ever since….there…I said it!
spinesnaper
No, I don’t think this was suspension trauma.
Mike Zampino
He seemed to have very little friction even at the top. Then it looked like he had to fix a tangled rope? At which point he lost control. Yikes!!!
Brian in SLC
I’d argue he lost control after about 5 feet in. You can tell he was either inexperienced or had learned very poor technique right after he launched. Nearly no control. Not smooth and constant feed. Bouncin’ around like a sports rappeller.
Look at his hand position when he starts out…eeek.
Rapterman
Mike and Canyonero
Like you and many on this forum, I am an old climber- type turned canyoneer.
Us climber types use what we know: our trusty ATCs.
But they were not designed for, and do not work especially well on, long drops, single line on 8mm static rope.
While I have rappelled several vertical miles this way, I did not relish the experience.
The trouble with friction is, if you do not quite have enough of it, control of the descent can run away from you
very quickly.
If all you know or have is an ATC then a canyoneer will be stuck with trying to rap DRT (even when it is not efficient to do so).
And hammering nails with a wrench
opening paint cans with a screw driver
cleaning your ears with a tooth pick
etc
Near death experience, ATC on 8mm, Englestead:
Be safe out there
Todd
Scott Patterson
It is still a mystery to me why canyoneers insist on doing long single line rappels on 8mm rope, regardless of the device used.
Most climbers I know are horrified that canyoneers insist on doing this.
Anyway, when I started canyoneering, the latest and greatest thing was the Figure 8 that had a square “bottom”. I used that until someone said “new Figure 8’s are larger and have a round bottom; you must get one of those”. So I did. Then it was “what are you doing using that? It twist the rope. Get an ATC”. So I did. A little while later it was “Why are you using that? There are variable speed ATC’s out”. So I got one of those. Then someone says “those are no good, you must buy a CRTR”. So I did. Now it’s the Squirrel or whatever the he** that thing is. Maybe canyoneers should just stop insisting on doing single line thin rope rappels all the time and then we can use whatever [fill in the blank] rappel device we want.
Brian in SLC
I still find the ATC trusty, especially on long, single strand drops. I might use two, or, I might rig with 2 or 3 biners, a biner on a leg loop, one above the device, etc, but, the friction is predictably reliable, they feed smooth, and they hardly twist the rope. Only better device might be a rappel rack that cavers use.
Plus, with an ATC, you can rappel double or single strand and the strands stay separate (each gets it own slot).
All other devices built on the frame of a figure eight add horns and friction, but, they’re still a figure eight at their core and put a bunch more twist in a rope.
Never consided a single strand, slick, 8mm with a Pirana…for 300 feet. Too fussy.
IMHO.
Canyonero
For sure. I did both Heaps and Imlay with an ATC using DRT on all but the final Heaps drop. I Z-rigged the final Heaps drop (should have done the second one too.) Real trad climbing skills go a long way and the vertical aspects of big wall climbing, canyoneering, and probably caving have tremendous overlap.
Ram
While true, I still cringe when told….”don’t worry, my friend is a big wall climber.”…..or…. “Don’t worry, he is a 5.12 trad leader.”
It may not be as big a deal in Zion with the rap and swim canyons, but I have had my share of issues with excellent climbers and technicians on canyons that have even solid R stemming.
The word “gaper” was invented by one such fella, who has dozens of big wall accomplishments including Zion. It is one thing to be tied in with huge exposure and another to cross gaps, even small ones, without any pro. I told the guy, that is NOT a silo! He called it a gaper, a mini silo and balked. Great climber and technician. He is also the only one I know who had this issue and then evolved into a solid X canyoneer, but it took him a few years to grow into it.
Another time…actually a few times….”he is a 5.12 climber,” translated into someone who had the head and dealt but were dreadfully slow. They were new to lateral route finding and took a good deal of time becoming proficient with that part of it. Personally? I need to get after it! Waiting in the stem game makes me tentative. Too much time to think. I dread the expression…”Don’t worry, he is a 5.12 climber.:
YMMV