Scott Patterson said:
According to the post though, they only had a 200′ rope and a 300′ pull cord. They didn’t have another 100′ rope. I don’t think I’d lower anyone on a pull cord tied to a rope. Click to expand…
Trip Report
Scott Patterson said:
According to the post though, they only had a 200′ rope and a 300′ pull cord. They didn’t have another 100′ rope. I don’t think I’d lower anyone on a pull cord tied to a rope. Click to expand…
Kuenn
may also explain why there are so few OTs these days.
Incident thoughts: An unintentional invert while on rappel can be a scary thing for the individual and the team. Happens at the most inopportune times, often to the least qualified or the TOTALLY fatigued, or Both. Poor center of gravity in one’s rigging, natural body proportion challenges (sometimes referred to as chicken legged and barrel chested), failing to tether a heavy pack, just to name a few more. Add to that mental fatigue, throwing caution to the wind with the often repeated mantra of “I’m just going to bust through this and get it over with”. The get it over with potentially being the most disastrous notion.
Not suggesting that any of which was causation here; the setup was right, though.
But what really intrigues me about this event are two things:
The quick response by this woman to take charge and grab the belay (perplexed why there wasn’t somebody already there – or was it the first team member down, which makes it even more perplexing – but totally awesome that it was a female that grabbed the belay – and NO, I’m not sexist). Two: The friction setting was obviously adequate to allow a controlled descent. Successful end of story. Rest of team is now T-ottaly alert, adrenaline pumping.
Only thing left is the retrospective and knowledge transfer.
ucla56
How does the Fireman belayer lower someone? Just by reducing their pressure? I can’t imagine that is smooth
Kuenn
Yes pressure, and not as much as you might think, if friction is right. It can actually be quite smooth, and in some cases as good or even a better ride than the on-roper can manage, given fatigue, etc. Environmental factors will also apply.
Brian in SLC
Ditto that. Good thing to practise. Can be quite smooth and controlled. Still a brake hand, just at a distance.
Rapterman
Sorry about gruff reply…
financially speaking the graphic you posted should be of me on a slab with pennies on my eyes…
CRITRs are still a non-income but joy-inducing hobby
Best
Todd
hank moon
I know…that’s why I thought it was funny!
Rapterman
Whoaaaaa Hank
I have very strong opinions about rap devices having tried and nearly succeeded in killing myself on other devices, including the ATS.
Agree that the ATS is more “versatile” than the PIRANA or ATC
BUT a modern device OUGHT to be able to vary friction mid-rappel (without the rope popping off of the ‘hyper-horns”)
and have a simple, positive lock -off that is easy to perform.
I think the SQWUREL is excellent and am reccomending it along with our device.
And what do you rappel on?
$$
hank moon
Hi Todd, nothing serious implied there – was supposed to be fun but my jokes tend to have a pretty high failure rate, so…FAIL!
To answer your question, I rap on various doodads, depending on the situation: CRITR, SQWUREL, ATC-XP mostly. Have more than one Pirana collecting dust in the garage…
spinesnaper
Craig
Someone suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect would never even look up the Dunning-Kruger effect to know that they might be having a metacognative break with reality. Most compulsive canyoneers are going have a knot in their stomach reading about the details of heaps for the first (or 40th) time and are going to be darn sure they have the skills to safely navigate the canyon or the alternative prudently find a more experienced canyoneer to accompany them to make success more than highly probable. Progressive experience and exposure to other canyoneers is how one learns what one does not know. The Dunning-Kruger effect would apply to the canyoneer who assumes their limited skill set is more than adequate to take on Heaps after say Key Hole, Pine Creek, Behunin, Mystery, and Das Boot. These are the people who take a 4/3 wetsuit in a cold May because they were warm doing Spry last August without a wetsuit. They completely understand the mechanics of lowering a team mate to the emerald pools even if they have never actually practice lowering someone. They have a magical concept of what a 50% probability of precipitation means. Does anyone remember the you tube video of a young man explaining how to rappel off of a railroad bridge? Not a single thing he confidently demonstrated in the video was correct. These are dangerous souls and natural selection is not kind to them. What is scary is that otherwise careful individuals misunderstand the basis for their confidence and get sucked into their misadventure. Epics and worse always seem to find them. We can debate if this applied to a young Aron Ralston. It is one thing if you are 19 years old provided you survive. It is another if you are old enough to know better.
Ken
Craig
“So what is it that separates me from anyone else with that same mentality and confidence in a given situation where I pass through safely and they end up dead?”
Maybe the Dunning-Kruger effect has something to do with this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect).
David Dunning said, “What’s curious is that, in many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.”
I’m sure we have all interacted with a person that is incompetent and oblivious to their short comings. I’m also sure we have all been that person.
What behaviors can we practice that will help us recognize when we might be suffering from this cognitive bias?
townsend
I can understand not using a Pirana w/o boosters, or an ATC (w/o boosters), for that final rappel in Heaps.
Per post #8 above, why rule out an ATS? It has four legs or feet (facilitating +/- friction on rappel), and one can even set it up initially for more friction depending on the concave/convex orientation — thus there are multiple friction options. I’m not saying it is on par with CTITR or SQWRL, but it is more versatile than either Pirana or ATC.
Bootboy
My second time through Heaps we carried no 300′ rope. While likely viewed as reckless, there we only two of us and we were fully prepared to rap and lower, then pass the knot with a 120′ and a 200′ and use a fiddle stick and a 300′ pull cord to retrieve it.
By chance, there was a 300′ rope that was rigged and waiting at the last rappel so we didn’t have to use plan A, but we were fully prepared to.
I certainly do not recommend this method to anyone because it would be irresponsible of me.
Bootboy
Here’s the thing Jim,
Information must be tailored to the least common denominator. Even though there was no heaps Veteran in my group my first time through, it doesn’t mean that I don’t recommend it.
It wouldn’t have made a difference for my group, but for other groups, it would have meant saving a life.
I struggle to figure out and articulate why I felt my group was ready and that it reflected reality and why groups that get someone killed feel the same way.
Clearly there are many factors at work but life has taught me that it can’t all be luck.
Canyon wise, I took a pretty fast track to the serious stuff and it has all been without incident. And I don’t think it’s all luck. Or maybe it is luck and good fortune that MY confidence gets to grounded in and aligned with reality. I’ve always been cautious and calculated when it comes to taking risks. Was I just lucky to be born this way?
So what is it that separates me from anyone else with that same mentality and confidence in a given situation where I pass through safely and they end up dead?
It’s true that you don’t know what you don’t know. So take someone that may know what YOU don’t.
Brian in SLC
I did the same thing on my first trip through Heaps in ’96. 2nd to last rap from the tree to the bird perch. Just didn’t look that steep to me. We carried 2 50m climbing ropes and a fat Bluewater static II 300 footer, and, the 300 footer had got wet from a leak in my dry bag. My pack musta weighed 60+ pounds. Ugh…scary.
Single dry strand of thin rope for nearly 300 feet of free air? No Pirana for me, thanks. Give me two ATC’s stacked one above the other. Smooth and no twisting in the wind. A figure eight style rappel device (like a Pirana, etc) is a foolish tool to use on that long a free air rappel, IMHO. A friend nearly passed out from spinning so much before thankfully touching down.
Folks were lucky there was a saavy group to help them out on the ground with that last rappel. Could have just as easily been a fatality. Scary business.
Jman
Perhaps our warnings about these canyons need to be more prominent?? I’m sure most do that, especially beta writers, but perhaps there needs to be more emphasis on this?
Also, to those who make videos of heaps and Imlay (even Kolob) – please put a warning at the beginning and ending of your video saying these are difficult canyons. Don’t use the word “expert” as every canyoneer, especially noobs, think they are experts.
Especially the ones that transition from rock-climbing to canyoneering. “Im a master at off-width climbing so therefore…I must be an expert in canyoneering!”
We met once a group in Imlay at the last rap that said this was their 2nd technical canyon! And that this was day 2 (unplanned bivy, of course) of the sneak route for them. Yikes!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Scott Patterson
I can’t say that we were smart when we did Imlay, but how about this group that (apparently?) had no experience and almost no gear?
http://www.climb-utah.com/Zion/germantourists.htm
Alphasteve42
My buddy and I were in the canyon at the same time as both of these groups. We passed the 3 guys having issues at the first long rappell into the valley. I think they said they are all SAR guys somewhere. Then we passed the second group right before the 3rd Narrows. ZION SAR called us right as they found em Sunday afternoon. His buddy was asking us about them at the pools on Sat at 330pm. 24hrs before they made it through. Glad they made it through okay. I am curious if the second group also planned on overnighting?
Rapterman
Canyonero, my friend.
I am on the soap box about bringing a veteran because we had this conversation
with some tough, young canyoneers in Vegas last year.
They did not follow advice, and went into Heaps without a vet.
One died.