hank moon said:
From what I have read about this accident, there is no way for us to know with 100% certainty the specifics about the anchor. It may have been a clove hitch. Or not. There is no definitive evidence one way or the other. Right? Click to expand…
Brian in SLC
Hard to separate the memorial aspect of these threads with the technical assessment of the details of the accident.
My thought is that it is a “rappelling fatality” thread, and, not “in memory of” thread.
No doubt some restraint because friends and family do search for any mention of a person and run across these types of threads. But, I think we’re here, and the initial thread was a call for, an analysis of what happened and not a memorial.
Plus, I tend to prefer waffles over french toast. Seems like every time I have french toast, I burn my my fingers and make a mess in my kitchen. Just seems that french toast causes me trouble.
How ’bout this for a bold statement…every canyoneering rappelling fatality has a commonality in that single rope rappel techniques were employed.
No one dies using double ropes to rappel in canyons.
You like that french toast crispy, or, a bit on the soggy side?
Tom Collins
Louis Cicotello
ratagonia
David Bryant.
Rapterman
There are two COMPLETELY separate discussions here.
One concerns the tragic loss of a young life, that we all regret.
The other separate discussion concerning the safest/best techniques for rigging/rappelling.
I hate to see the devastating emotions from the tragedy used as a ‘club’ to make points in a safety discussion.
It can tend to make one valid side of the discussion seem ‘heartless’.
Kuenn
Agreed, the best practices/techniques/critique discussion should be split off to a separate thread.
Brian in SLC
Does count as another fatality involving rappelling on a single, blocked line. Whatever the specific cause.
ratagonia
It does also count as yet ANOTHER fatality for someone who had French Toast for breakfast! When will people realize that French Toast is extremely dangerous, leads to the 10 am blood-sugar crash => lack of mental focus => mistakes!!!
ratagonia
Article: “The tragic incident, like the rappelling deaths of a Phoenix firefighter and a 15-year-old boy at Camelback Mountain last August, also could have been prevented by use of a secondary backup anchor, evidence indicates.”
I hate this…
The thesis is that, even though the evidence points to their lack of competence in rigging and/or tying simple knots, that IF they had tied another knot elsewhere, the accident would have been prevented. I disagree with this assessment.
When people demonstrate that they are unsuccessful at performing basic tasks, it seems unlikely that they would successfully perform a basic task if they did it again.
Similarly, the suggestion that they should (perhaps) of used a different knot, supposedly simple to tie, as opposed to the knot that they likely failed to tie correctly, a simple knot to tie correctly, is unlikely to be a solution to the problem.
The solution is for people who are using new techniques to be supervised by someone who knows what they are doing, or back up their rigging (etc.) using a technique they are proficient in.
Maybe the knot was tied wrong. Maybe the biner block slipped through the ring. Sufficient information is not provide to know exactly what went wrong. What we do know is that they rigged something wrong (which luckily held for two people) and their rigging failed. And that they were not supervised by someone who knew what they were doing.
Tom
Article referenced: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/poor-rappel-setup-led-to-asu-students-fatal-fall-7468789
AW~
Speaking about yourself?
Or against a person who paid the ultimate price?
Either way, its advocating the same arrogance.
The solution is if you know you can change an outcome like this, speak up.
That does not mean if she had used yet another unproven knot, rather than a tested hitch.
That does not mean if only she had tied it properly.
It means going through all the protocols of rappelling…and paying respect that they exist whether or not any one person knows all of them.
If that means people have to stop pretending they know it all so some beginner feels safe, then so be it.
And vice versa that the canyoneer of any level has to understand that canyoneering is complicated and not simple and not to try and make it simple as if only simplicity works.
But while we wish the person were still alive, we celebrate who they were….and we dont judge a dead person so we can feel better about our way of doing things. We know the pretenders that will sell 5 min, 3 step, packaged no need for questions, course on how to rappel win out if they exude arrogance. Liability waiver in pocket of course, while saying the new canyoneer is safe and certified. Theres very little demand selling humility/frailty by going thoroughly 20+ steps of rappelling(because the instructor knows maybe one of these, no matter how common sense on the scale, might be a weakness for someone). With the instructor saying you are now at best ready to make mistakes, with high risk swirling around you, unless you prove otherwise that you can get down safely.
Kuenn
X2
The question has often been asked, “So what is the most dangerous component of the technical on-rope experience?” Some may quickly chime in with, a little knowledge being the most dangerous thing. I actually think it goes deeper than that. The vertical community being on an extremely wide learning continuum, learning small or large, can be highly ambiguous. Knowledge, regardless of the measured quantity, is just fine when tempered with X – and lethal without X.
So what is X….? By my definition, it is a high or inordinate opinion of one’s own knowledge, unchecked by recognized limits. In its simplest form it’s, “wait, I’m not qualified to do this”. Which is judgement, incarnate. It can be alarming, when heard from the one considered to be in charge or more knowledgeable. However, it’s better verbalized than concealed; and vital when dealing in extreme activities.
No one should ever find fault with the person, leader or otherwise, who calls for a second opinion and/or willingly steps down from the podium. Even if you’re supposed to be the so-called “knowledge leader”. A little knowledge is NOT the most dangerous thing, but failing to admit it IS.
Rapterman
Yes,
You have to tie it properly, or it isn’t a knot…