Not completely sure what you mean by an “optional add on training certification.” Please explain further. But persoanlly, I’d avoid any government, state, local or federal, stepping in on certifications of any kind. Almost every time a climber in Colorado gets killed, there are those who want the govt. to step in and regulate, register, issue permits to “qualified” people, etc. This will always result in limiting personal freedoms.
Trip Report
MikeDallin
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MikeDallin
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MikeDallin
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Deagol
I can see where you are coming from with this perception, but it’s not always true (though it may be true more times than not ??).
I use a Gopro but don’t post videos online to get attention or praise (but many clearly do). I use it to share with family/friends or to re-live a small part of the experience myself. Most of what I film isn’t really adrenaline at all. Too much adrenaline probably means that something went wrong.
But, I totally see where you are coming from.
There seems to be a cycle: people go on a trip, come home, post video to online forum (oftentimes put to music that emphasizes the action over the scenery), people comment, tell the poster how “awesome” the video is, decide to “add that location to their list”, location gets more attention, more people post their own videos, bad things (damage, overuse, accidents, etc) may happen, cycle repeats…. That’s one reason I decided to never post a trip report/video (unless there was some unusual reason to do so, like maybe a safety concern that people need to be made aware of, or something like that)..
But not all Gopro users are in it for the adrenaline..
Bootboy
I hate to say it, but I get frustrated by people making films about canyoneering. Yeah, I know I sound very selfish, but I’m just trying to protect the things I love from stupid people who will inevitably screw it up for everyone. You have to realize that when you show a film about something like this that there will always be people who are going to be complete idiots and get the bright idea to try it for themselves. I personally have nothing to gain by making a film about the activities I enjoy and spraying it to a general audience.
Making a film about it can be likened to advertising, except with most advertising, there is something to be gained. Why advertise when there is only something to be lost?
If you say “awareness”, you are full of shit. As it sits, or at least as it has, these places have been off pretty much anybody’s radar, we draw attention to it and all of the sudden, everyone and their dogs are “aware” and they promptly go out and break their legs. What good has been accomplished by “awareness”?
I realize that there are certain places that have benefitted from “awareness” in as much as it pertains to access issues but those seem to be the exception to the rule.
“Hey look everyone, I know of this secret place that is amazingly beautiful, where solitude can be sought, where you can have a magical wilderness experience.” How can you expect the masses not to flock?
I hate to sound accusatory, and I’ll probably get flamed for this post, but showing off and, dare I say it? Ego, is about the biggest reason I can truly see for people to make a film. What is to be gained for the greater canyon community? Restricted access? Fees? Crowds? Damaged resources?
There is only personal gain by way of self promotion or money to be gained by the film maker.
I know that people are responsible for their own actions, but you have to anticipate certain aspects of human nature when provided with certain stimuli.
To be honest people that ask me about canyoneering usually get little more than an unexciting and brief explanation from me and usually only after I have determined whether or not that person has any business in a canyon. Subjective, you say? Sure. My prerogative? Absolutely.
Downward Bound
Are guidebooks posted online by Tom, Shane and others any less part of the problem?
gajslk
My first reaction is to say no. But the reality is a bit more nuanced and depends on the judgement of the writer/publisher. If beta is provided for fairly straightforward, well-known canyons, damage and risk is likely minimized. Traffic will get funneled into those canyons. Of course, some online dick is bound to sneer at you and tell you that all you’ve done are rap and swim kiddie canyons. And there is beta out there for things that aren’t straightforward. The internet isn’t evil, but when it comes to spraying beta, it’s darned effective. Gone are the days when you could size up another person face to face and try to gauge their ethics before providing beta.
Whining about the good old days won’t change anything. Pandora’s Box has been opened and can’t be shut again. We’re going to have to live with reality. Since the “community” isn’t the group causing most of the problems, there isn’t much we can do except try to help SAR be ready.
I could even make the argument that training and classes will make things worse, not better, by sending even more people into canyons who can then tell their friends “Hey, it’s easy. Skip that class and come with me.” or who’s not so good friends can say “If that doofus can do it, so can we, and we don’t need no stinking class.” It’s not clear at all to me that classes are a net loss, but that argument is strong enough that it’s not at all clear to me that they are a net gain either. A personal example. When I was learning to climb back in the early 80s, we occasionally ran into the Colorado Mountain Club. We regarded them as a bunch of hyper-conservative old farts. The minimum group size for any CMC outing was four. One to get hurt, one to stay with the victim, and two to go for help. We called groups of four or more “swarms” and really looked down on the CMC as a bunch of pussies. Dumb? Sure. But that’s what testosterone-charged kids do. That’s life, and denying reality won’t change it.
Gordon
Deagol
This is something I pretty much agree with, regardless of the fact it will not be a popular position to take. The negative affects of mainstream popularity is the elephant in the room, IMO
Mountaineer
I don’t think any of us want more regulation. Although I do believe that more is coming, sooner or later. Especially given the increased interest and number of accidents. Hopefully we can come up with solutions to avoid the “sooner”.
There really isn’t much in the way of certifications today in canyoneering, although I still believe something someday will happen. If nothing else, it forces more awareness to the masses that additional skill is needed. I can still find ways to scuba dive without showing/proving I have a scuba certification. Although the awareness that there is such thing as a scuba cert indicates to everyone that training is needed. It exists.
Back to topic. My thought was more simple, cert was a poor word: maybe having different type of cards, colors, or labels; to indicate what training or experience you have rather than the level of donation. Self proclaimed of course.
MikeDallin
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ratagonia
I would further venture that those three alternatives a), b) and c) are exceedingly unlikely.
If you want a good alternative, it is that people start respecting the consequences of canyoneering, get over the “it’s easy!” atti-dhude! and learn some skills – and that learning some skills becomes part of the sport, kinda like scuba (though not that far).
Tom
gajslk
Folks taking responsibility for themselves and their own actions? How quaint. LOL How often do you see that happening anywhere these days? Why should canyoneering be any different?
Gordon
Mountaineer
How many SAR events and/or deaths will it take before things close and trespassing is illegal?
gajslk
How many more deaths in car accidents before cars are illegalized? How many more heroin overdoses before heroin is made illegal? How many more police shootings before cops are illegal? Suicide is illegal. How many more deaths before the penalty is increased? More laws and regulation is clearly the answer. Not.
Lack of personal responsibility leads to a nanny state, which then attempts to codify behavior in law. That works about as well as anything else the government does … badly. But it’s really expensive.
Climbing has avoided such nonsense. Why? Perhaps a similar model might work. You sure don’t see rangers at the crags asking if you’ve got an orange certification before allowing you onto a 5.10, or a purple card before letting you jump on a 5.11. One problem with canyoneering is that it’s much less difficult than climbing, the dangers aren’t nearly as obvious, and retreat is usually far more difficult. That’s a bad combination, yes, but if you think you can fix it with rules, regulations, and laws, you’re dreaming.
Gordon
Mountaineer
Not advocating extremes. I’m glad it is illegal to drive without a license, for example, even though some drive without one. And even though some who drive with one still cause accidents, die.
Very key between the two activities quoted you point out, and perhaps one underlying reason there is an increase of people in canyoneering.
I hope you are right. Maybe by doing nothing, canyons everywhere will stay open to all forever.
Mountaineer
Rather than policy/regulation/burden (ugh), how about awareness. Here are some ideas, you all may have better ones:
* Continue/improve by placing warnings and recommendations at trailheads of popular canyon routes
* Continue/improve on canyoneering training programs that are nationally/worldwide recognized
* Continue publicizing accidents/near misses/lessons learned (in hopes that some will read and thus prepare more first)
* Improve on the canyon classification rating scale
* Continue/improve on SAR support, fundraising, and service
– Additional thoughts or support on the SAR contribution card idea?
gajslk
How will this help? The folks about to epic got beta off the internet. They’re happy that this is going to be dangerous and difficult. Until they aren’t.
Dude, those things are expensive. Here, I’ll show you what you need to know. My brother-in-law showed me once when we were drunk. It’s easy. What? A class? You some kind of pussy? And they’re off …
That will help attract people who want to be seen as daring and out there. It would be hard to publicize an accident more than Aaron Ralston’s. That did a lot to keep people out of the canyons, right?. I’ve had enough people get all bug eyed that I’m off to do that insane canyoneering that now I usually just tell people that I’m going hiking. Were I young and single, I could really milk it at parties.
No scale, no matter how good, can equal well written route descriptions. And no scale handles changing conditions well. If you rate the hardest condition, you give people who go in easy conditions a false sense of confidence. If you rate the easy or average conditions, you set false expectations. If you give the range, the rating is useless for many canyons. Knowing that it’s somewhere between really easy and really hard isn’t much help. I’d be happier if canyon ratings disappeared altogether.
There’s an idea that I can get behind.
Gordon
Deagol
This ^^^ oh, and Meetup groups.
It’s becoming too popular for it’s own good. Also more people want to make films/documentaries (even if they are good) thereby gaining even more and more attention for this pursuit.
gajslk
Life is full of tradeoffs. Free resources tend to get way over used. If the alternatives are closing all slot canyons or not providing any rescues at all, I’d say that letting a few fools die by their own choice is better. Better doesn’t mean good. But I’d say it’s a lesser of evils.
Gordon