Brian in SLC said:
I’ve always preferred this type of contingency over a munter/mule. Smooth lower. Easy to rig. Except when you don’t…
I’ve been in the habit of having me and mine double check that rappel rig prior to launch. Load it up, inspect, then unclip when you’re sure everything is good to go. Had he done that, he’d have fallen to the end of his tether (or, loaded his hand/arm if he was on terrain that he could just hang onto the anchor…a risky practice but still might avoid the train wreck). Click to expand…
Brian in SLC
Red webbing was in place. Sits back enough from the edge that its not view-able from below. The older (?) anchor under her left hip is the one that has gouged out the rock and is a bit of a cluster.
I also belayed her out to that spot as well. No one perishes on my watch! (knock on wood)…
I’ve seen that method employed in Europe with a single guide and a small family. Austrian guide and Italian family…four of them, all stacked up in a row and all rigged to rappel. Guide went first…then, one at a time, the family. Easy.
Makes me nervous to go first unless I know my people are rigged correctly. Otherwise, I’d top belay them down.
ratagonia
BDC – if you set her up single strand, you could get all you get this way, PLUS give her both a bottom belay and a contingency set up with the gear you have at the same time.
In my mind/training, I would never (ie, almost never, maybe actually never) have a client start a rappel above me. If I had to go down for some reason, I would need to go back up to be with the client when they start. Except maybe in a class. Late in the class. And of course, SO =/= client.
Tom
Brian in SLC
Well…bottom belay is a given for me.
On steep, multi pitch anchors with a single guide (you) and a client (or beginner), how do you manage their clipping into a steeply situation anchor? I’d rather go first, rig that next anchor (or clip into it), and, manage them coming into that station.
How could I rig contingency and manage that from the bottom?
ratagonia
You are thinking rock climbing. I am thinking guidable canyons, where that is not a problem.
You might give her a bit of a rap extension next time, so she is not quite so trapped. BUT, gotta make sure the biners not loaded funny.
T
ratagonia
Interesting perspective. Red webbing, ugh! Certainly one way to do it, when the anchor is in a good place.
Tom
Brian in SLC
Interesting thread drift.
Depends on the individual.
I take folks I treat as beginners fairly regularly. I’ve been around guides a fair bit (in Europe mostly) and have been guided in a canyon and with guides in canyons in South America and Europe. Some expose the clients to enormous risk.
Which is why Tom mentioned “high level of professionalism” I’d bet. Matters in some cases for sure.
How much formal training have I had? Very little. How ’bout John? Probably similar. John?
From what little I know about the situation in Soap Canyon, I’d have approached that first rappel in a very different manner. But, I’m overly conservative especially with less experienced friends/relations. Last rappel in Behunin as an example…note she’s on rappel…and…I’m rappelling off her…she ain’t goin’ no where until I’m off rappel, and, she certainly can’t rig her rappel incorrectly. OMG…double strand….we’re goin’ a die! Ha ha.
Rapterman
Curious to know how much training you provide prior to the canyon and how you manage rappels-
Same or different than John Diener?
ratagonia
I think you would have to come on a trip. Or just come up to Zion (in a bit) and let me show you my NEW canyon, and we can cover that.
Different. I am a professional, trained by a company that holds a high level of professionalism.
Tom
Rapterman
The gentleman in the video says he is demonstrating a ‘standard’ figure eight block.
Standard? That is not how I rig it, and I always ‘safety’ it off with an extra biner.
To several good points made above:
There is no way to ‘safely’ guide rank beginner(s) through technical canyons such as this one with just one guide.
ratagonia
Uh, well, IS TOO. Now, admittedly, I only have 200 guiding days under my belt, more than 50% where I was the only guide, with absolute beginners. Not mistake-free by any means. One ER visit (client lost balance in talus and cut her knee). No near misses.
So IS TOO. It takes care and training, plus skill. Can be done and IS done on a regular basis all over the world by technical guides pretty much everywhere.
John Diener
I think the one ‘guide’, one ‘beginner’ scenario can be kept fairly safe, although it is certainly more work. A strategy I have used, when out with just one of my daughters, is a combination of top belay, contingency anchor, and carrying 3X the largest drop in rope. So, for example, 300′ of rope for Pine Creek. Feels like this covers most of typical problems that crop up, but I am always interested in other thoughts and ideas.
-john
ratagonia
Just to be clear, this was NOT a guided trip. Recreational.
T
Added: Then again, it does not REALLY matter, except in the legal sense. The moral imperative is still there, as is, before a Utah jury with a kid in a wheelchair, the duty of care.
AW~
Good to hear. What was the condition of his helmet?
wisconnyjohnny
Yeah love the GC. This is the first rappel. 20 yards between the landing of this rap and the next 40 ft dry fall you would need at least a 120 rope. one rap after these two, at about 30 ft makes it a no brainer for 3 raps and a shorter rope. 1st rap about 60 ft
2nd rappel 20 yards down canyon about 40 ft and third rappel about 20-30 ft
we walked from a big rock with a pull off and is about 20 minutes to first rap from road. My pics from that day are time stamped. Maybe i oughta do a trip report. lolz. I lived at cliff dwellers so Knew soap creek well. It changes alot
wisconnyjohnny
3rd rap
Krampus
Anyone have a good link for this Figure 8 block? I’ve never used it and curious how it works.
UPDATE: I think this link explains it.
Mountaineer
For one, BSA (boy scouts) use it as their defacto standard. When done properly, it is very safe and useful. I’ve led a couple of group outings where hair was caught, and this technique, like others, can be quickly converted to a lower system.
Easy, effective, safe.
Side note, the error in this accident was not rooted to the block rigging.
My preferred “guide” block is the Jester. Each of us have our favorite. I only use the figure 8 with the optional twist lock, then biner clip in, for BSA….
Maybe splinter this thread, or dig up an old one on blocks is in order.
Mountaineer
Glad he is OK. And you all are making great points. This started before a rigging error.
When it comes to a life, critical that best practices are always followed.
Read, refresh, practice and internalize again. Time to get out and experience the next one…
Brian in SLC
So…given that his partner was a beginner…
Why did he rig contingency and not plan on staying at the anchor? Or, did he slip? It appeared from the interviews and commentary that his intent was to rappel. What good is an unmanned contingency anchor?
His partner is a beginner…and…had to negotiate under an exposed chockstone position to the anchor, then put himself on rappel, then rappel?
I wouldn’t let a beginner do any of that without being belayed and managed through the whole process, most likely from above.
And, this guy is an experienced guide?
I note that his company logo has “rappell” spelled wrong…ha ha. I’m assuming he has a valid permit for guiding on public land?
Hmmm.