Bootboy said:
I’m aware that they exist but their effectiveness and reliability are reportedly less than satisfactory…Stay tuned Click to expand…
Trip Report
Bootboy said:
I’m aware that they exist but their effectiveness and reliability are reportedly less than satisfactory…Stay tuned Click to expand…
ratagonia
How about this, for a “ghetto” Water Trap
Put a burly HEFTY brand Trash Compactor bag in a pack, and fill it with water. Place the pack near the edge of the drop, kinda standing up. Rap off the handle of the pack (if Imlay Pack) or put some slings around the pack to tie it off well. Tie the pull cord to a bottom side corner of the pack. Rappel off the pack, then pull on the pullcord, which topples the pack over, spilling the water out. Pull the pack down.
When you get home, order a new pack (you know, next spring).
Tom
Mountaineer
Ha, love it! And yes, we need some packs (hopefully sooner than spring).
John Diener
Just a few followup notes on a water-based anchor (not that I claim any expertise). Whatever it is should be easy to fill. The volume has to be pretty big (sand is about double the density of water). It needs to deal with the situation where the anchor pothole is rim full or close.
The emergency techniques you mention are interesting. I’ve thought about carrying a few “just-in-case” trash compactor bags a couple of times, but have never actually done so. The situation would have to be pretty dire, I think. Not sure on release mechanism – had been thinking something along the lines of a Tom J fiddlestick-based technique.
Mountaineer
Only if someone had a heart attack or similar, and needed medical aid to live.
The leaving people behind option was certainly a choice we discussed and decided on before placing a bolt.
Mountaineer
Can it be done without bolts? Yes. Glad I’ve never needed to place one.
The root reason was my lack of experience with the sand trap and pot shot anchors. This was my first time using them in practice. The bolt kit, while never to be touched, gave the group (team ask to bring), confidence and peace of mind to commit.
Would I bring it again? No, but I also have more confidence.
ratagonia
Good effort, I guess.
I’m a little saddened by a judgment choice, that seems to conflict with “I’m glad this canyon has not been modified, and it should be left that way.”
ie, Entering the canyon in admittedly ‘most difficult conditions’ with a bolt kit in case it was more difficult than you could deal with. I hope if you had placed a bolt that you would have gone in the next day and removed it and puttied it up; then jugged back out.
As an idea, if you had gotten ‘stuck’, you could leave one person behind as meat, then string ropes together from the top for them to jug out on, presumably the same day.
So why did you bring a bolt kit?
Tom
Blake Merrell
HAHA, so they could FRAME me with carrying the G-pick! thus black listing me from ever going canyoneering again with anyone else in the community!
I imagine the bolt kit was brought along for the same reasons that maybe even you use to bring along a bolt kit for. It is an excellent insurance policy. There is no shame is placing your life as a greater priority than placing a bolt in a bolt-less canyon. Having said this, it must be understood that we all agreed that we would rather BIVY overnight in that canyon before we ever placed a bolt. We also talked about leaving some “meat” behind and rescuing them from the top once the rest of the group completed the canyon. All in all, the bolt kit was brought along as an insurance policy. No harm in doing that. As noted previously, if someones life was in danger (medical condition, broken bone, etc) I would not hesitate to place a bolt (if the situation deemed it necessary) to speed up the process of getting someone to safety.
having said all of this, I am also aware that my opinions are malleable still. I am so new to the community and sport that my sense of canyoneering ethics is always evolving. I remember once arguing about bolts in a canyon and wondering why people hate them so bad. Now that I have done some canyons like No Kidding, I better understand why people ENJOY traveling through places without bolts. No kidding canyon is such an AMAZING place! ONe of the best canyons I have done in my short time canyoneering. Why? because it challenged me to think-to really really think! That challenge was what made that canyon so much fun! IF that canyon was bolted, it would only be a mediocre canyon at best.
John Diener
Nice job on the descent! Just thinking about those kind of canyons in those kind of conditions gives me the willies…
As to the Aguanchor, I’ve been fortunate to use it a half dozen times or so. Unfortunately it has always been “in the heat of battle” so there wasn’t time available to get a thorough understanding of all its workings. I couldn’t tell whether there was much chance of getting the pull (release) bound up. Certainly once release occurs, it is going to drain without much chance of problem. On the other side of the coin, obviously a pre-release would be catastrophic… but if the pull is in the hands of those at the bottom, and is carefully kept out of the last’s way, the chances are brought to near zero. Note that often very light 1/8″ Dyneema cord is used for the duty. Last, if you are in a canyon where you think you’ll need an Aguanchor, you are going to have a sandtrap or two – I like the paired system.
However, that being said, I think it is great people are thinking about it and moving the technology forward. Many years ago, apparently Steve Allen and crew used Dromedary water bags as anchors, flipping open the small spout just before the last started their rap. A little stressful for the LAPAR, I imagine. Now there is the Aguanchor… what will be next?
-john
Mountaineer
Hi John, thanks for chiming in. The canyon was a real treat. I hope it is respected and left “as is” for future generations to enjoy.
One thing I learned was that all 3 tools were needed: pot shots, sandtrap, and an aqua type anchor solution.
In a pinch, it seems a garbage bag with a couple of small holes would work (not ideal or safe as discussed). Or, placing a garbage bag in your pack then putting a sharp hook in there with another pull cord attached. The pack should keep the hook tightly in place, and with a hard yank rip the bag apart and release the water.
An improved system would be a pull valve. My scuba BCD has two, one is more expensive (at the bottom) that allows air (or water) to release if you become inverted. The bottom valve uses a pull cord. A robust/light bag, with a robust pull cord type valve, then placed inside your backpack for protection seems like a simple yet effective solution.
Mountaineer
Lots of ideas that need a toggle of some sort. I’m still a fan of the remote control concept.
Push the button, valve opens and releases all the water.
Pikan
OOOOOH, I like it! are you thinking some kind of solenoid actuation? I can help with THIS project!
Kuenn
Giving a whole new spin on “technical” canyoneering.
Mountaineer
Thanks Hank, I’m sure there are.
Being out in the field requires creativity and following best practices and tools. Coming up with ideas (although some not new) with each pro/con is a fun part of the experience.
Pikan
X2!
“(although some not new)” and I would add that some are not the best, I know that many of MY ideas are the best!
I liked the way that you and Tyler approached some of the situations in this canyon. You shared many ideas, some were obviously not the best, like, for example: to get past a tricky rappel, some ideas that were discussed were: leaving behind gear, leave someone at the rappel and come back with more gear options, or……..dare i say it?……..*gulp*……..leave bolts! *looks around suspiciously* (and we both know who we could blame and plant the incriminating evidence on!!!!! *wink* *wink * ) While we know that some solutions aren’t really what we want to do, these ideas can spark new and more plausible ideas all leading up to the most optimized solution to the problem that you can come up with in a reasonable amount of time with the available resources. Of course we shouldn’t over-think things on each and every rappel, pot-hole escape, or other obstacle , but this can be a process to go through when things aren’t clear-cut and easy….like getting to the middle of No Kidding and finding water at the top of a rappel. What do you think we would have had to come up with if we hadn’t had all those pot-shots? Who knows!!!
Kuenn
I think we’re on the same page here, but one other thought while we’re talking field testing and R&D.
I realize that sub-standard material has been used in emergency situations, i.e. shoe strings for prusiks, trash bag as heat tent, and so on. But when time and energy permits, the best material should be sought after, IMO. I would not be comfortable with a life/limb solution in the hands of “garbage bag” mfg’s quality control…just say’n.
Good luck in the pursuit for a better/quality solution.
Blake Merrell
What I really enjoy about Mountaineers idea is that it can be done in an emergency. I agree that it is not ideal, but thinking of ways to escape a canyon in undesirable conditions is VERY good. Imagine that you descend into a canyon that is typically done with speciality tools such as the Sand Trap and Pot Shots. However, after you commit and get into the meat of the technical section you find that there is water where there should be sand and your tools are now rendered useless? what do you do? This emergency Aquanchor intrigues me. Will i ever use it? probably not. But has it helped me think in a different way? yes! Would I descend into a canyon that is known to have potholes filled with water and plan to use a pack with a garbage sack as my anchor? probably not, I would do what I could to descend those kind of canyons with the right tools, BUT as i have stated before, these ideas have helped me to THINK about things differently. For that I am grateful
ratagonia
Any anchor works poorly when it is left in the car. Jenny’s Aquanchor is small and light, thus can be carried with only a small penalty, and gets carried a lot. The larger, heavier and more expensive the “water anchor” is, the more often it will be carried. Thus, we chose to put the Aquanchor inside a SandTrap (which is already being carried).
The Aquanchor also needs to survive a fall of 200 feet, and being pulled through slots. This is easier when it is inside the protective SandTrap.
But… still curious what you are coming up with. Those are the choices we made – curious as to what choices you will make.
Tom
Bootboy
As to durability, the body of mine will be made of 1000d cordura, and it will have an identically shaped bladder made of sealed lightweight waterproof material to line it. I’ve got the retrieval system pretty dialed, I’m just trying to improve the geometry. Adding, gussets, picking seams, sewing this and that, cutting, resewing… It’s a tedious, time and material intensive endeavor, but we’re getting there.
Deagol
same here….