Thanks gajslk. Agree.
I believe, however, more can always be done. And it can make a difference. With any activity. Perhaps I am the minority in that belief. But you are right gajslk, all accidents can’t be prevented.
As I mentioned, a lot has already been done with canyoneering and I’m appreciative to those that have made that effort.
Likewise, I’m sure there are many people who are grateful that more was done after 1980 about drunk driving. Many believed at that time there was enough education and information. Since then, MADD claims they have cut drunk driving in half. It was started by Candice Lightner after her 13 year old was killed. More was done there, and one person made a difference .
Cristina
mhhh
you guys do not have any idea the reality of accidents that happen out there any single given weekends.
Only the one that result in death get the news.
my girlfriend saw the simul rap accident and she said froom the start the group ( was behind hers) looks not having a single clues of what rappelling was!!!
every weekend people go “canyoneering” with an ego bigger than the ocean and skills equals to a 2 years old.
any way to reduce accidents ?no! usually after the accidents those people blame in the order: the people before them ,websites, God,or the canyon but never once themselves.
i met a guy that every weekend he goes he ended up in trouble:near death in costrichnine, ipothermia and bailing in fry!!!!, 13 hr to finish black hole 9 no in May at 100F)
when talking he still the “experience one” come on he paid for classes!
the sad part is that he keeps taking lot of people risking their lives impressing them as “experience ”
I will not let him tight a shoe laces!
but again the elites does canyons by themselves and post beautiful pictures, the masses want to go and do not want to spend the $$$ for guides ,so they resort to their neighbour friend whoever and cross fingers!
no faults on the elite nor in the masses, just how life goes and personal responsabilities in each person to decide who trust or not to trust.
this lady put the trust of her life on somebody that probably did not deserve it.
her fault in doing that .
there are few people that i will trust completely but still the last decision or action is always on me!
like checking my equipment or the anchorrope i am going down on.
i rapped on ropes retrieved in canyons, but if is more than 10 feet i will not allow others to do the same!
but i am ready for landing and my weight and my rappeling style allow me more room for risk.
and never had an accident for now
i actually bailed after a long slog up to the entrance of squeeze because I did not like the rain that start pouring!
was hard to do ,but the canyon will be there another time and my life will be there too!
slow friday at work!
Mountaineer
Great call. And many times hard to do, especially when you’ve committed so much time and resources into it. But you hiked all that way!
When I’m on scuba trips, sometimes things just don’t come together right (like having a head cold), so you abandon the dive. Hard to do when you’ve planned the trip for a year. Live to dive another day. Plan the dive, dive the plan,…uh hum…plan the canyon, canyon the plan?
Kuenn
or spin it — Live to di v e another day. Looks like cousin Bill S. may be having some influence. Be extra careful with that cave diving, if that’s your pleasure. Those guys are a vanishing breed – in every sense of the word.
Kudos for having the mettle to do the xtreme while packing a finite air supply. I’m sure glad the same consequences do not apply as strictly to hiking and water supply.
Is certainly true when you’ve built experience reserves.
Unfortunately, there are many doing this today who don’t have that and need someone to cover their back.
Kuenn
GOOD – Providing information, advice, challenging questions/answers, public servants, etc.
BAD – Intrusive, jamming/cramming down, in-yo-face, hand-wringing do-gooders, etc.
Points I think we can all agree on and are well taken….but there are limits and boundaries at which point the “gloves come off”.
Take the drinking argument: The boundary is crossed when the “three sheets” friend, associate or complete stranger blows off the offer for a ride home, ignorant or just plain arrogant of his current state, determined to drive himself.
Equally true is the on-rope argument: If you are a/the leader (implicit or by appointment) and you recognize unsafe or unskilled practice jeopardizing life and limb of a participant, team or self – just as literally in the previous example a boundary has been crossed. Or even one-up that (in my circle), you are required to prove yourself (sober/competent) before the training wheels (belays and safety checks) come off.
In either of these cases, do the right thing regardless if it’s good form or open to derision. If it means you have to get – intrusive, in-your-face, this ain’t happen’n here – then be bold and do it!
Worst thing, they walk away (cursing you) and don’t want to play with you anymore…at least they’re walking.
gajslk
Intrusive is telling someone what they can and can’t do, or when they can do it or when they can’t, or how they can do it. See Zion permit system for an example. People just BSing on the internet is not intrusive, you have to seek it out to even find it. I may be offensive here, but I’m certainly not intrusive. Intrusive is in your face, unavoidable, not an option.
I have no problem with providing information. I think it’s a public service and is laudable. I’m happy to help. I balk at jamming things down someone’s throat for their own good. Inevitably, that’s the result when the hand-wringing “we have to do something” crowd gets it’s way …
Gordon
gajslk
But there’s always a cost. A canyoneering example. You personally could prevent 99.999% of all rappelling accidents at the drop in Birch where the recent fatality occurred. All you have to do is to post yourself at the drop every day from dawn until dark and make sure everyone rigs properly and gets a fireman’s belay. You could probably even take January off. That’s a pretty high cost versus the number of lives saved. Are you willing to pay it? Would you be willing to pay $300 for a permit in Zion to pay the salary of the ranger who would accompany you through the canyon to make sure you don’t do anything stupid? Think of how many injuries would be averted, lives saved, etc.
My point is that talk is cheap but effective action is not. I’m a firm believer in personal responsibility and freedom. If you want to do something dangerous, go for it. If you choose to educate yourself first, great. If you’re risk seeking and actually enjoy the excitement of getting in way over your head, fine. Like I said, the information you need to be safe is widely available. Doing more than that is intrusive and offensive to many.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Trying to figure out inventive ways to make him drink is, for me, a complete waste of time. But if you enjoy the mental exercise, knock yourself out. But saying that we, as a community, need to do something is silly. Do it yourself. No one is stopping you. You’re all grown up and everything.
Gordon
Mountaineer
No argument on your points. I’m sure MADD also understood costs vs. benefit, I pointed it out as their process was proven to benefit. They most likely started with a few simple steps. They may have come across as intrusive to some?
This forum, for example, I believe has helped many. I would say that your participation on asking questions, providing advice, and challenging ideas help others. I believe, gajslk, that you make a difference even when you were faced at the possibility of being perceived intrusive and offensive to many. You are speaking out.
Sharing our experiences, posting up the difficulties and challenges we face, and providing ideas all can help that silent web beginner before they descend that canyon…Certainly a start. Has benefit. Hard to measure.