Hi Hank,
I don’t have much experience with bottom belays on big raps, but it seems we should beware. I would think that even with static line, a 300′ rap will have enough stretch to make the bottom belay less effective. Depends on rap device, too.
Matt
> BTW, typical (southeastern U.S.) caver practice is is for first guy down > to get out of rockfall zone and give bottom a belay.
hank
BobShear@twcny.rr.com
— In canyons@y…, beadysee@f… wrote: > Second 300 footer? I’m thinkin’ you just volunteered to bring and > carry it….
….
— In canyons@y…, “Richard A Shear” wrote:
Hank & Tom: >….
The upcoming San Rafael Swell reportedly has a 300 ft rap. Would a > second line be advisable here or is this a given?
Don’t worry, bro. If Tom Jones shows up with 300 shoelaces, I’ll definitely help you carry that nice long Sterling bad boy.
Bob
hmoon@petzl.com
Richard The hitch found at http://www.ffme.fr/fiches.technique/corde/noeud/autobloquant/machardt.htm is a version of the valdotain. The version I learned is not made from a tied loop as in the link above. Rather, it is fashioned from a 2m length of 11 mm climbing rope, from which two core strands have been removed, ends melted and sealed. Tightened overhand loops (loops just big enough to accept a ‘biner) in the ends complete the setup, ready for wrapping, braiding, and rapping. As DB has pointed out, this hitch is also useful for passing a knot. To make the valdotain, wrap one end of the sling around the standing rope 4 times, forming a nice stack of 4 loops around the rope. The sling ends should be of unequal length (such that the end loops even up horizontally when pulled “down” or in line with the rope) before completing as follows: braid the ends around the standing part, crossing each over the other at least 4 times. Clip both end loops into a locking carabiner and enjoy this sloppy wonder. Note: number of wraps and braids varies with body weight, rope diameter, etc. Test using overkill wraps before committing! Disclaimer: The “valdotain” and any other knots, hitches or information of any kind presented herein are presented for entertainment/educational purposes only. Do not use this information in any situation whereby the safety of a living creature can be viewed as dependent thereon. hank “now THAT’s entertainment” moon “Richard A Shear” 03/12/01 10:13 AM Please respond to canyons To: cc: Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel Hank & Tom: You got my attention once again and once again thanks. Where can I see an illustration of the “valdotain” ? Perhaps more food for thought. I received some training from Zion Adventures where we rapped down a very long single rope and later ascended this same rope. I found it very comforting that the instructor had two ropes side by side. One was for me, the other was for the instructor. The instructor’s line could be used for everything from side by side technique instructions to rescue. The upcoming San Rafael Swell reportedly has a 300 ft rap. Would a second line be advisable here or is this a given? I suppose my second question should be directed to Tom, but your input is appreciated. Regards, —– Original Message —– From: hmoon@petzl.com To: canyons@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel The “valdotain” (which I believe is identical to the French braid) is the knot taught to guides by the CEC and ACA for improvised rappelling on WET ropes (wet valdotain as well). Its chief use is in rescue, where it can be used to descend a loaded line. hank >No duh. Anyone who used a French Braid to do a rappel >would be a total putz, and there was no implication >that a French Braid should be used for a rappel. It’s Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association http://www.canyoneering.net Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options. DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of Service. Groups Sponsor Click here for Classmates.com Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association http://www.canyoneering.net Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options. DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of Service.
beadysee@freewebcity.com
Second 300 footer? I’m thinkin’ you just volunteered to bring and carry it….
I wouldn’t think it is a “given”. Might just be you and the rope…
Is a “french braid” ala valdotain just the two ends of a cord (with loops) wrapped a bunch of times around a rope? Hmmm….is load releasable due to the wraps bearing the weight instead of the clipped in ends? Can’t find either description on any of the knot websites. If any one has a reference, that’d be nice…
Brian in SLC
— In canyons@y…, “Richard A Shear” wrote: > Hank & Tom: > You got my attention once again and once again thanks. Where can I see an illustration of the “valdotain” ? > Perhaps more food for thought. I received some training from Zion Adventures where we rapped down a very long single rope and later ascended this same rope. I found it very comforting that the instructor had two ropes side by side. One was for me, the other was for the instructor. The instructor’s line could be used for everything from side by side technique instructions to rescue. > The upcoming San Rafael Swell reportedly has a 300 ft rap. Would a second line be advisable here or is this a given? > I suppose my second question should be directed to Tom, but your input is appreciated. > Regards,
—– Original Message —– > From: hmoon@p… > To: canyons@y… > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:55 AM > Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel
The “valdotain” (which I believe is identical to the French braid) is the knot taught to guides by the CEC and ACA for improvised rappelling on WET ropes (wet valdotain as well). Its chief use is in rescue, where it can be used to descend a loaded line.
hank
> >No duh. Anyone who used a French Braid to do a rappel > >would be a total putz, and there was no implication > >that a French Braid should be used for a rappel. It’s
Erik Salo
I’ve never seen one, but found a very comprehensive discussion of the valdotain knot at the following link (it’s not a joke even though the title is weird):
http://www.collegetermpapers.com/TermPapers/Science/The_Study_of_Cow_Shit.shtml
Best Regards;
Erik
icegydbuk@yahoo.com 03/12/2001 10:28 AM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group@Internet cc: (bcc: Erik Salo/Americas/NSC) Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel
Thanks for the data, Hank. I agree its main purpose is rescue. I learned the French Braid (valdotain)fourteen years ago in the AMGA guides rescue course where it was taught strictly as a load-releasing variation of a prusik ratchet in a haul. I’m one of those folks who doesn’t self-belay (back up) my own rappels with any knots or devices because they’re just another thing to deal with (I’m a minimalist at heart). For others of you reading this, I’m not talking about “load-releasing” your way down a rope with a valdotain instead of a rappel device…I’m talking about using it as a backup. My personal choise is to not use backups, and if I need to stop and hang I’ll wrap my leg or do something else. But if you’re going to use a back-up, a braid is certainly a viable alternative to a prusik or ascender. Braids are a bit messy (i.e. fall out of shape much more easily than prusik backups). But if it works for you then I’m all for it. The idea of using it on a wet rope makes some sense, too. In my case I’ve found the braid very satisfactory for simply passing a knot.
DB
— hmoon@petzl.com wrote: > The “valdotain” (which I believe is identical to the > French braid) is the > knot taught to guides by the CEC and ACA for > improvised rappelling on WET > ropes (wet valdotain as well). Its chief use is in > rescue, where it can be > used to descend a loaded line.
hank
No duh. Anyone who used a French Braid to do a > rappel
would be a total putz, and there was no implication
that a French Braid should be used for a rappel. It’s
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llana kanka
Thanks for the data, Hank. I agree its main purpose is rescue. I learned the French Braid (valdotain)fourteen years ago in the AMGA guides rescue course where it was taught strictly as a load-releasing variation of a prusik ratchet in a haul. I’m one of those folks who doesn’t self-belay (back up) my own rappels with any knots or devices because they’re just another thing to deal with (I’m a minimalist at heart). For others of you reading this, I’m not talking about “load-releasing” your way down a rope with a valdotain instead of a rappel device…I’m talking about using it as a backup. My personal choise is to not use backups, and if I need to stop and hang I’ll wrap my leg or do something else. But if you’re going to use a back-up, a braid is certainly a viable alternative to a prusik or ascender. Braids are a bit messy (i.e. fall out of shape much more easily than prusik backups). But if it works for you then I’m all for it. The idea of using it on a wet rope makes some sense, too. In my case I’ve found the braid very satisfactory for simply passing a knot.
DB
— hmoon@petzl.com wrote: > The “valdotain” (which I believe is identical to the > French braid) is the > knot taught to guides by the CEC and ACA for > improvised rappelling on WET > ropes (wet valdotain as well). Its chief use is in > rescue, where it can be > used to descend a loaded line.
hank
No duh. Anyone who used a French Braid to do a > rappel
would be a total putz, and there was no implication
that a French Braid should be used for a rappel. It’s
Auctions – Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Richard A Shear
Hank & Tom: You got my attention once again and once again thanks. Where can I see an illustration of the “valdotain” ? Perhaps more food for thought. I received some training from Zion Adventures where we rapped down a very long single rope and later ascended this same rope. I found it very comforting that the instructor had two ropes side by side. One was for me, the other was for the instructor. The instructor’s line could be used for everything from side by side technique instructions to rescue. The upcoming San Rafael Swell reportedly has a 300 ft rap. Would a second line be advisable here or is this a given? I suppose my second question should be directed to Tom, but your input is appreciated. Regards, —– Original Message —– From: hmoon@petzl.com To: canyons@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel
The “valdotain” (which I believe is identical to the French braid) is the knot taught to guides by the CEC and ACA for improvised rappelling on WET ropes (wet valdotain as well). Its chief use is in rescue, where it can be used to descend a loaded line.
hank
>No duh. Anyone who used a French Braid to do a rappel
>would be a total putz, and there was no implication
>that a French Braid should be used for a rappel. It’s
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hmoon@petzl.com
The “valdotain” (which I believe is identical to the French braid) is the knot taught to guides by the CEC and ACA for improvised rappelling on WET ropes (wet valdotain as well). Its chief use is in rescue, where it can be used to descend a loaded line. hank >No duh. Anyone who used a French Braid to do a rappel >would be a total putz, and there was no implication >that a French Braid should be used for a rappel. It’s
Roberto.Schenone@lia.it
Just to keep on wigging out (what does it means????), I have a mpeg of a 300′ feet rappel in Reunion, it’s 1.2. Mb… if someone wants to get it just ask me.
Ciao
Skeno
Please respond to Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group cc:
Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel
Hoooey. A little 300′ free rappel on a 6mm single strand and everybody gets all wigged out? C’mon, pace yourselves, still 8 weeks to go.
Tom
PS: And, Bob, we’ll have none of that Free Fall Rappelling on my trip….
On Fri, 09 March 2001, matt@deserthighlights.com wrote:
> Hi Hank,
I don’t have much experience with bottom belays on big raps, but it > seems we should beware. I would think that even with static line, a > 300′ rap will have enough stretch to make the bottom belay less > effective. Depends on rap device, too.
Matt
BTW, typical (southeastern U.S.) caver practice is is for first guy > down
to get out of rockfall zone and give bottom a belay.
hank
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
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llana kanka
Lee,
No duh. Anyone who used a French Braid to do a rappel would be a total putz, and there was no implication that a French Braid should be used for a rappel. It’s just fine to use it to pass a knot and I defy you to show me how a couple of six inch slips on the braid are going to melt through anyone’s sheath. When using a braid to pass a knot, it doesn’t matter if you’re on a two foot rope or a 600 foot rope, the amount of heat generated is the same.You have to know what to use it for and how to use it, and read e-mails in the context they’re written in.
Ugh!
DB
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localfocus@zeta.org.au
French Prussik is not recommended for rappels over ~100ft as it can easily start to melt due to all the braking friction going into the thin cord. We all know how hot gloves & friction devices get on long abseils, just imagine all that heat going directly into a thin nylon/etc cord… SSSmokin! Regards from Downunder. Lee
— In canyons@y…, llana kanka wrote:
You can do the same thing with a “French Braid”, a > prussic variation that releases as needed under load, > costs a buck or two at most to make, and weighs nothing.
> > Get email at your own domain with Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Erik Salo
Hi All;
I’m thinking that 300 feet of rope weighs so darn much that you’ll probably have to push the rope through you ATC to make downward progress. Not to worry.
Best Regards;
Erik
matt@deserthighlights.com 03/09/2001 08:31 PM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group@Internet cc: (bcc: Erik Salo/Americas/NSC) Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel
Hi Hank,
I don’t have much experience with bottom belays on big raps, but it seems we should beware. I would think that even with static line, a 300′ rap will have enough stretch to make the bottom belay less effective. Depends on rap device, too.
Matt
> BTW, typical (southeastern U.S.) caver practice is is for first guy down > to get out of rockfall zone and give bottom a belay.
hank
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Tom Jones
Hoooey. A little 300′ free rappel on a 6mm single strand and everybody gets all wigged out? C’mon, pace yourselves, still 8 weeks to go.
Tom
PS: And, Bob, we’ll have none of that Free Fall Rappelling on my trip….
On Fri, 09 March 2001, matt@deserthighlights.com wrote:
> Hi Hank,
I don’t have much experience with bottom belays on big raps, but it > seems we should beware. I would think that even with static line, a > 300′ rap will have enough stretch to make the bottom belay less > effective. Depends on rap device, too.
Matt
BTW, typical (southeastern U.S.) caver practice is is for first guy > down
to get out of rockfall zone and give bottom a belay.
hank
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
> Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options.
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
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> Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/