300” Knotted Rope rappel

Hi Shane;

I was thinking that single strand means “not double strand” (e.g. not two strands through your brake) as opposed to “single rope” which would mean no knots. Unless you double back the rope, you wouldn’t be able to pull the rope after the rap. Also, if you have a way to pull the rope after such a significant rappell that means that you really have a total of 600 feet of rope since you’ll need to double back the rope (the second 300′ could be skinny line).

However, this all seems pretty complicated. It would be much easier if someone would just carry a full 600 foot 11mm line. That way you have a nice rappell on two fat strands that you can pull when you’re done. Any volunteers? I do think that someone should carry that person’s water bottle in consideration for the slight extra weight of the rope.

Best Regards;

Erik

edg78@compuse rve.com To: Yahoo Canyons Group@Internet cc: (bcc: Erik Salo/Americas/NSC) 03/09/2001 Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel 11:26 AM

Thanks Erik,

I already own Tibloc’s but have never tried passing a knot while hanging 150′ in the air, sounds scarrrry. However, the description states a “single strand rappel” Which I assume means NO knot. My next question was going to be who is going to haul the 300′ rope. Just want to know what I am signing up for.

Shane Burrows

—– Original Message —– From: Erik Salo Erik.Salo@nsc.com> To: Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel

> Hi Shane;

The problem with a 300 foot rap is that most climbers do not own/carry a 300 foot rope. You will almost always tie two ropes together to achieve the required length. This is great until you rap down to the knot. This is a common problem for cavers since they frequently do rappels longer than 150/200 feet. Most people want to have two things connecting them to the rope at all times while switching to below the knot. That’s where the tiblocs (inexpensive and light) or ascendors (expensive and big) or shunts (expensive and heavy) or prussiks (very inexpensive but hard to use) come into play.

I hook two tiblocs to above the knot and hang on the top one using the lower one for safety backup. I then dis-asssemble the brake (ATC), move it below the knot and re-thread. I lock off the brake and remove one of the tiblocs and attach it below the knot to a sling connected to both my harness and to my foot. I then step up on the lower tiblock which unweights the upper tiblock. The upper tiblock can be removed. Unweight the lower tiblock putting the pressure back on the brake. Remove the lower tiblock and you’re below the knot and can rappell the remainder of the rope. Two tiblocs are very lightweight and only cost about $20 each. You also need a few extra biners and slings. You could do exactly the same thing with purssiks, ascenders or shunts. I’ve tried it with all four and prefer the tiblocs.

Try to do this while hanging in a waist harness and you’ll know why a double length sling converted into a chest harness is a good idea. It can certainly be done with just a waist harness but is pretty uncomfortable.

I’d recommend practicing someplace warm and dry a few times since it takes a little getting used to.

I think that a last comment is that if you go down a rope, you should always have the gear needed to go back up in case something unexpected happens. Tibloc’s or prussics are both inexpensive and lightweight forms of insurance.

Best Regards;

Erik

edg78@compuse > rve.com To: Yahoo Canyons Group@Internet > cc: (bcc: Erik Salo/Americas/NSC) > 03/09/2001 Subject: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel > 10:29 AM

Tom,

I took a gander at the Swell Rendezvous page > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/group/swell.htm and have a question about the > 300′ rap at the end of Knotted Rope (Miners Hollow for Kelsey > fans….hehehe).

The equipment list says something about “shunt, tiblocs or an ascendor, plus > a chest harness or slings to make one”. If this is to be a single strand > rappel what is with all the gear? Since I have never done a rappel this > long what am I missing?

Shane Burrows

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Hi Dick;

Thanks for the kind words. My impression is that the autoblock has not caught on in America. I have noticed significantly different rap backup techniques in most places that I’ve climbed.

In the Alps (Chamonix and Zermatt areas), pretty much everyone uses the autoblock knot tied to a leg loop to back up rappells. I remember passing up a Swiss guide and his American clients on the Matterhorn where the guide was yelling (in true Zermatt guide form), “noo I meaant an auutooblk, what do you meen you doont know what and autoblk is, you said you were climbers, that is a pruusik, here I will tie it for you.”

In the tetons, most rappels are done LAMAR (e.g. Last MAn at Risk, where all but the last person is also belayed with a munter hitch from the top with another rope). I ran into an EXUM guide at the top of the Grand Teton last summer and he told me that all of the guide services in the area use the technique for insurance reasons. In Boulder where I learned to climb (not to imply that I actually know how to climb) most use a prussik above the brake. The one time that I was in the Yosemite Valley I noticed several people using Petzl Shunts.

I don’t have any idea which method is better. I’ve used the prussik the most (because it’s cheap and light) but you’re in trouble if you weight it at all during the descent (another thing that you should practice in warm dry conditions close to the ground). If I don’t have a long approach sometimes I’ll bring the shunt, but it usually gets left in the car purely for weight reasons.

Best Regards;

Erik

pem@lvcm.com To: Yahoo Canyons Group@Internet 03/09/2001 cc: (bcc: Erik Salo/Americas/NSC) 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel

Eric: Kudos. That was one of the best explanations of passing a knot, I have read. I favor the chest harness over the converted sling, if possible. The sling tends to ride up behind my neck and is scary in addition to being uncomfortable. I am curious about autoblocks. The canyoneering community seems to avoid their use. Do you know why or am I misinformed? Regards, Dick Shear, Las Vegas

—– Original Message —– From: Erik Salo To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel

Hi Shane;

The problem with a 300 foot rap is that most climbers do not own/carry a 300 foot rope. You will almost always tie two ropes together to achieve the required length. This is great until you rap down to the knot. This is a common problem for cavers since they frequently do rappels longer than 150/200 feet. Most people want to have two things connecting them to the rope at all times while switching to below the knot. That’s where the tiblocs (inexpensive and light) or ascendors (expensive and big) or shunts (expensive and heavy) or prussiks (very inexpensive but hard to use) come into play.

I hook two tiblocs to above the knot and hang on the top one using the lower one for safety backup. I then dis-asssemble the brake (ATC), move it below the knot and re-thread. I lock off the brake and remove one of the tiblocs and attach it below the knot to a sling connected to both my harness and to my foot. I then step up on the lower tiblock which unweights the upper tiblock. The upper tiblock can be removed. Unweight the lower tiblock putting the pressure back on the brake. Remove the lower tiblock and you’re below the knot and can rappell the remainder of the rope. Two tiblocs are very lightweight and only cost about $20 each. You also need a few extra biners and slings. You could do exactly the same thing with purssiks, ascenders or shunts. I’ve tried it with all four and prefer the tiblocs.

Try to do this while hanging in a waist harness and you’ll know why a double length sling converted into a chest harness is a good idea. It can certainly be done with just a waist harness but is pretty uncomfortable.

I’d recommend practicing someplace warm and dry a few times since it takes a little getting used to.

I think that a last comment is that if you go down a rope, you should always have the gear needed to go back up in case something unexpected happens. Tibloc’s or prussics are both inexpensive and lightweight forms of insurance.

Best Regards;

Erik

edg78@compuse rve.com To: Yahoo Canyons Group@Internet cc: (bcc: Erik Salo/Americas/NSC) 03/09/2001 Subject: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel 10:29 AM

Tom,

I took a gander at the Swell Rendezvous page http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/group/swell.htm and have a question about the 300′ rap at the end of Knotted Rope (Miners Hollow for Kelsey fans….hehehe).

The equipment list says something about “shunt, tiblocs or an ascendor, plus a chest harness or slings to make one”. If this is to be a single strand rappel what is with all the gear? Since I have never done a rappel this long what am I missing?

Shane Burrows

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Hi Shane;

The problem with a 300 foot rap is that most climbers do not own/carry a 300 foot rope. You will almost always tie two ropes together to achieve the required length. This is great until you rap down to the knot. This is a common problem for cavers since they frequently do rappels longer than 150/200 feet. Most people want to have two things connecting them to the rope at all times while switching to below the knot. That’s where the tiblocs (inexpensive and light) or ascendors (expensive and big) or shunts (expensive and heavy) or prussiks (very inexpensive but hard to use) come into play.

I hook two tiblocs to above the knot and hang on the top one using the lower one for safety backup. I then dis-asssemble the brake (ATC), move it below the knot and re-thread. I lock off the brake and remove one of the tiblocs and attach it below the knot to a sling connected to both my harness and to my foot. I then step up on the lower tiblock which unweights the upper tiblock. The upper tiblock can be removed. Unweight the lower tiblock putting the pressure back on the brake. Remove the lower tiblock and you’re below the knot and can rappell the remainder of the rope. Two tiblocs are very lightweight and only cost about $20 each. You also need a few extra biners and slings. You could do exactly the same thing with purssiks, ascenders or shunts. I’ve tried it with all four and prefer the tiblocs.

Try to do this while hanging in a waist harness and you’ll know why a double length sling converted into a chest harness is a good idea. It can certainly be done with just a waist harness but is pretty uncomfortable.

I’d recommend practicing someplace warm and dry a few times since it takes a little getting used to.

I think that a last comment is that if you go down a rope, you should always have the gear needed to go back up in case something unexpected happens. Tibloc’s or prussics are both inexpensive and lightweight forms of insurance.

Best Regards;

Erik

edg78@compuse rve.com To: Yahoo Canyons Group@Internet cc: (bcc: Erik Salo/Americas/NSC) 03/09/2001 Subject: [canyons group] 300′ Knotted Rope rappel 10:29 AM

Tom,

I took a gander at the Swell Rendezvous page http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/group/swell.htm and have a question about the 300′ rap at the end of Knotted Rope (Miners Hollow for Kelsey fans….hehehe).

The equipment list says something about “shunt, tiblocs or an ascendor, plus a chest harness or slings to make one”. If this is to be a single strand rappel what is with all the gear? Since I have never done a rappel this long what am I missing?

Shane Burrows

Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association http://www.canyoneering.net

Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options.

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