Rom, you might want to read this one too
Yesterday I received several e-mails from a 5 Mile veteran. he has made one trip through the canyon with another fellow, both talented and well known in our little community. Nat, Stevie and I were stating our opinion that 5 Mile can be descended sans tech gear, but that having a rope, harness and webbing along is still what we do, whether we use it or not. The fellow expressed the strongest objections to our beta. Such quotes as “the WORST beta ever heard,” “Normally has 3 raps to 30′ for EXPERIENCED canyoneers”, 90% of your audience can’t downclimb that canyon without considerable risk,” “you guys are idiots for telling folks they don’t need a rope “and he implied that our beta was a set up that could cause another “Choprock.”
While I found his delivery insulting and condescending, the issues were important and I felt a reexamination was called for. This fellow and his partners are exceptional downclimbers. I consider both of them to be better than I am, so I was puzzled by the huge difference in assessment of the canyons difficulties.
Several things came to mind. 1-They may have experienced more difficult conditions than I have….but I have done the canyon 15 times in the last 28 years and experienced what I imagine, a full spectrum of conditions. 2- I only saw the first and biggest rap once and that was on my first trip, 28 years ago and I really don’t remember any details of the area. Nat and Tyson discussed that one. 3- having done the canyon so many times (I do like sharing this variation with my friends), that I have all of the moves wired, so the canyon seems easier to me, creating my misjudgment
I shared with the fella that my wife and son had downclimbed it, as well as many other folks and that perhaps he had an off day in there? Now it was his turn to feel insulted. I know I have off days, but….Anyway we cleared up the “insult” issue, agreeing one can never hear or feel the tone of ones meaning through e-mail.
He pointed out that you have to make sure you ratchet up the difficulty when giving out beta. This is correct and I agree, but just feel the canyon, while full of water and having many downclimbs, simply doesn’t have any real dangerous climbing, at least below that top rap. He said that I probably did a fair share of coaching in there, with my groups. I am OK at that, and that statement would be fair. I suggested that we should go back there together, that he would then see what I am talking about. We are both so busy, I don’t see that happening………….so……where to now? He still feels the post was irresponsible. I still feel the canyon is way easier than he thinks. First, I am posting about this interaction, because the fellas opinion needs to be out where the public can consider it, many value and follow his advise. Second to point out how two folks who agree in assessment on a ton of canyons and other canyoneering issues, can have such a large difference of opinion about this one. Buyer beware and that grain of salt thing, I guess. Third, I have scheduled a return engagement. I get back to Vegas, from the Mexico rendezvous on May 16th, 8PM and have to be on Powell early May 18th. I will drive from Vegas as far as I can, do the rest in the early AM and do me Cotten/5 Mile loop on the 17th. I hope Steve Cole, my partner for this day won’t mind me inviting a few other folks, who might be willing to make an independent evaluation. I hope the fella comes too. Ping me sideband, if interested. I know several of you who have done this canyon with me,are on the group. Feel free to jump in and share your opinion. Ultimately, as we have seen already during this year of storms and change, err on the side of caution. Safe passage Ram
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote: > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “nat_smale” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> He pointed out that you have to make sure you ratchet up the
> difficulty when giving out beta. This is correct and I agree,
Nat, Hank and the other fella all diasagree with this statement. I do > to and apologize for its wording. Nat and Hank had much better and > accurate explanations. > Thanx > Ram
Ditto. Tell it like you saw it. Folks should consider the source (!). Sandbagging included. Internet BS should always be taken with a grain of sand.
Overstating difficulties is much worse, IMHO. Unless its a Rum Doodle type thing.
No need to coddle.
Brian in SLC
nat_smale
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tnunemac” wrote: > Good points, thanks.
I guess I consider myself a pretty cautious, experienced-novice sort > of canyoneer, so when I relate my experiences in a canyon on this > group, I tend to assume I’m relating them to folks who are:
Thanks for your excellent thoughtful post, Tyson. I should say that I feel a bit sheepish about my original post on this; probably what started it all. Instead of making the unqualified statement: “there are no raps in 5-mile”, I should have said something on the order of: “I found that one could downclimb the drops in 5-mile, but still, it’s a good idea to bring a short rope”. That said, I still agree that the Box Elder Narrows drop is really pretty straightforward, and most reasonable scramblers should be able to do it without a rope.
Nat
tnunemac
Good points, thanks.
I guess I consider myself a pretty cautious, experienced-novice sort of canyoneer, so when I relate my experiences in a canyon on this group, I tend to assume I’m relating them to folks who are:
1.) Better climbers than me 2.) In better shape than me 3.) Less acrophobic than me
Given this (mis?)perception, it doesn’t often occur to me to ratchet up the difficulty rating.
I also tend to assume that everyone who canyoneers knows that there’s a big asterisk with any beta, that being the fact that canyon conditions change violently and suddenly. That doesn’t mean you always need to go armed for bear, assuming the worst in every canyon you visit. But you ought to get as a recent a report as you can on conditions from a source you consider reputable. I’ve done well with Tom Jones and Shane Burrows beta, and this RAM dude has been spot on with every recommendation I’ve taken to heart. Ditto Mike Dallin. I figure chances are excellent I won’t screw myself too terribly with beta from these guys and a realistic evaluation of my own skills — and how beta from these guys, their lingo and implied attitudes toward both risk and discomfort, applies to my skills and tolerance for risk and discomfort.
So, back to 5-mile. I can’t imagine where one would find 3 30′ rappels. Then again, I’ve only been through 5-mile once, and I freely admit that canyons change violently and suddenly. The 1 potential 30′ rap that I saw, and the 1 30′ rap mentioned by anyone who’s given me beta on 5-mile seemed like a fairly enduring feature of the canyon. When I saw it, it featured a dryfall with what appeared to be a huge and foothold-rich series of ledges, breaking it into 3 distinct 10′-ish sections which I would have had no problems DCing. You don’t know what sort of down-climber I am, of course, but I’m a scrambling hiker, not a rock climber, who doesn’t care much for exposure, so there’s a good chance you’re better at it than I am. Last fall, there was a huge tree, a box elder in fact, right at the top of the trop. We rigged off of it. This tree could be gone now, but I think chances are great it’s still there — just a gut feeling. YMMV? I can easily imagine the 12′ drop in the second set of narrows changing. It’s formed by a chockstone, as so many 12′ drops in canyons seem to be, and chockstones move (hopefully not while you’re climbing on them). But if it’s been there for 28 years (see RAM), there’s an excellent chance it’ll be there the next time you go, it seems to me. Again, YMMV?
In any case, next time *I* go, and I do hope to go through this splendid canyon again sometime the next couple years, *I* will take my chances and leave my harness behind, and I’ll once again bring along a far more skilled partner who can coach me out of unexpectedly sticky situations, thereby diminishing the risk even further. He can also carry a short length of rope for me.
Fortunately, I don’t write guidebooks for the masses — I just post to a friendly egroup where more experienced folks can correct any misconceptions I may inadvertantly perpetuate — so I don’t feel undue responsibility for folks who use my beta. I post what little beta I can because my canyoneering life has been enriched by similar posts from other people, and I want to “pay it forward” as best I can. I’m not really sure about ratcheting up the difficulty level or playing to the lowest common denominator. Maybe it’s better simply to clearly communicate my experience and skill level, so you can judge the quality of my beta and relate it to your own experience and skill level, while factoring in whatever’s a comfortable level of risk tolerance for you?
What I like about this group is that the spray from people I’ve come to “know” through their e-personas has been more valuable than any more formal beta I’ve read in a book. Of course, that’s not a fair comparison, given some of the folks writing the books…
-Tyson
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “onkaluna” wrote: > Facts, advice…all part of the beta.
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “nat_smale” wrote: > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> He pointed out that you have to make sure you ratchet up the
difficulty when giving out beta. This is correct and I agree,
Nat, Hank and the other fella all diasagree with this statement. I do to and apologize for its wording. Nat and Hank had much better and accurate explanations. Thanx Ram
onkaluna
Facts, advice…all part of the beta. Facts about Fivemile: for many years, there has been a ~12′ drop in the canyon at or near the beginning of the “technical” section. The bottom of the drop can be wet or dry. This drop can be downclimbed by certain people. Others may want to rappel this drop depending on conditions, ability, “not feeling oats”, etc. Note that “facts” can change in canyons via floods, rockfall, etc.
Example of advice for Fivemile: It’s a good idea to have rope and harnesses for this canyon.
Example of (fictitious) spray for Fivemile: “We did it car to car in 3.5 hours and never used a rope.” While this may actually be a fact, it is mostly useless as public beta. Spray should not be considered beta except among close partners or friends who are familiar with each others’ abilities. Even then, keep the sandbag antenna up!
Agree with Nate that the beta should be communicated as clearly and objectively as possible w/o overstating. But, agree with “ratcheting up” in terms of time estimates, equipment needed, etc. – especially if the beta-giver has not done the canyon multiple times with varied partners, conditions, etc. Without that perspective, the beta autor should incorporate a responsible beta-buffer, just as engineers specify safety factors for structures, systems, etc.
hank
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “nat_smale” wrote: > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> He pointed out that you have to make sure you ratchet up the
difficulty when giving out beta. This is correct and I agree,
I guess I disagree with this. I think that beta should be as accurate
nat_smale
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> He pointed out that you have to make sure you ratchet up the > difficulty when giving out beta. This is correct and I agree,
I guess I disagree with this. I think that beta should be as accurate as possible. “Ratcheting up the difficulty” is only going to mislead people and could be dangerous. If someone descends a canyon that really has some 5.4 climbing and is R in risk, and the beta has “ratched up ” to state that it is 5.8 X, they could get a seriously wrong impression of their capabilities, and attempt something later that is too hard for them. I am not saying that difficulties should be minimized in beta, and certainly sandbagging has no place in canyoneering. I just think that it is a mistake to overate canyons and climbs as a way to warn people. Make it as accurate as possible.
Nat