As the facilitator for a few Pine Creek sojourns, I’ve attempted to make it safe to get on rappel by putting myself on a safety sling around the arch and then having others use me as their safety while connecting to the sling. I’ve also strung a safety line which we anchored somewhere back up that narrow break in the rock. Either of these methods works and seems like that is what the more experienced are supposed to do – assist those with less experience in the canyons. >
I have been through Pine Creek several times now, and the above description is what I have done. While rigging the rope through the rap station, I have been clipped in to a partner who is anchored in. That is for safety and security while doing that exposed “reach out” to the webbing and rings.
Typically an experienced person in the group stays on station clipped in and helps all others. The clipped in person usually helps pull the rope up to the next awaiting rappeller to hook up on a secure spot, then the rappeller edges themseves over and begins.
While an extra bolt and hanger in a secure spot away from the edge may be helpful, I think you can safety off from the arch or from higher up with a long peice of webbing.
Kerry
Matt Maxon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “cilantro1313” wrote:
One puzzling issue for me:
Why was the most “experienced” person in the group going down that rap > first?
Well the issue here IMO is what was the “inexperienced” person wanted help with and what the “experienced” person felt was needed
> Wouldn’t it have been better to put the inexperienced friend on > an autoblock and sent her down first so the experienced canyoneer > could ensure the rig was right and help get the newbie over the edge? > (And I know there are so many assumptions here, such as if the > experienced person doesn’t know how to rig in right, how would they > know if the newb rigged in right, etc….) >
IMO it is “best” when taking a newbie through a canyon to have “at least” 2 experienced people along to address this situation.
Since there was only one a determination had to be made
I did pine creek as a newbie and that rappel freaked me out. It still > freaks me out a certain degree and I hope it always does so I am > always really careful. >
Good, I have a healthly respect for these dangerous situations, and canyons in general
>But the idea of being a newb and having to rig > in (especially on a more complex rig like a biner-block) and go over > the edge without a second pair of eyes to look over my rig… I > understand the desire for a fireman’s belay at the bottom, but it > seems like there are **a lot** of unsafe things that could happen at > the top that would justify having the experienced canyoneer come down > last. In our groups, we always sandwich newbs in the middle, the most > experienced comes down last, another experienced person goes first for > a belay, making sure the rap is clean, or ascending, if necessary. >
All those are good points, and prophetic. In this situation most of the legs of safety where gone, crippled, or simply nonexistent .
“If” I was going to be the only experienced person along I’d have more rope and top rope belay the newbies down. But there was only one rope.
This is the crux of the errors made here. There where no canyoneers with enough experience to take newbies through a canyon.
> Also, it seems like there has been a discussion in here of rapping off > different diameter rope, but what is the danger in this situation of > rigging both the rap line and the recovery line through the rappel > device, assuming the recovery line isn’t multiple lines knotted > together. Even if you rigged wrong, I would rather take my chances on > the recovery line than no line at all. (Again, assume here that this > is the last person to go over and that the first people down went down > the block that had been made safe at the anchor with a knot.). >
In my experience the different diameter ropes have unpredictable rappelling characteristics. too fast, too slow, jamming etc. It is not something I’d care to test out there.
It is generally wise to test if the rope can bear your weight before unclipping your safety tether .
You get onrope []
You think you are ready to go [:-/]
great! test it…. weighting the rope without the tether is a very poor way to find out if you are in control. []
Cheers Matt
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” koen@ wrote:
IF she put the block the wrong side that may be (part of) the answer
of why she survived: the retrieving end of the rope would have whizzed
through the anchor point and slowed her down a bit depending on how
they intertwined.
We’ve been experimenting with such setups for emergency uses in cases
you have only one ropelength the height of the drop: hang the rope
double, mounted through a descender fixed at the anchor, or a munter
hitch. Attach yourself to one end and lower yourself with the other
until you run out of rope, hopefully near the bottom . In the worst
case halfway…
Let go of the rope’s end and hope that the friction brake mounted on
top will slow you down enough to let you safely descend on the other
end… >
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “cilantro1313” wrote:
One puzzling issue for me:
Why was
You make some valid points, Marlan. but, probably better to discuss these points in the abstract, rather than second/third/fourth- guessing our unfortunate/fortunate friend in Pine Creek. It CAN be fun second-guessing, especially in cases where death was averted, and the supply of facts is especially slim.
From my point of view, the two most important suggestions for beginners are:
1. Don’t be a beginner, led by a beginner. 2. If you are a beginner, don’t lead canyons.
While canyoneering is ‘pretty easy’, it is also serious, in that even small mistakes can result in death or serious injury. There are inobvious things to understand, and though many people have just wandered in figured it out (and survived), a few have not. May we suggest that beginners who are interested in starting canyoneering get training AND travel with people who know what they are doing.
The flipside of this is, people who do know what they are doing – please open your trips to a few people who are interested and just getting started.
Tom
cilantro1313
One puzzling issue for me:
Why was the most “experienced” person in the group going down that rap first? Wouldn’t it have been better to put the inexperienced friend on an autoblock and sent her down first so the experienced canyoneer could ensure the rig was right and help get the newbie over the edge? (And I know there are so many assumptions here, such as if the experienced person doesn’t know how to rig in right, how would they know if the newb rigged in right, etc….)
I did pine creek as a newbie and that rappel freaked me out. It still freaks me out a certain degree and I hope it always does so I am always really careful. But the idea of being a newb and having to rig in (especially on a more complex rig like a biner-block) and go over the edge without a second pair of eyes to look over my rig… I understand the desire for a fireman’s belay at the bottom, but it seems like there are **a lot** of unsafe things that could happen at the top that would justify having the experienced canyoneer come down last. In our groups, we always sandwich newbs in the middle, the most experienced comes down last, another experienced person goes first for a belay, making sure the rap is clean, or ascending, if necessary.
Also, it seems like there has been a discussion in here of rapping off different diameter rope, but what is the danger in this situation of rigging both the rap line and the recovery line through the rappel device, assuming the recovery line isn’t multiple lines knotted together. Even if you rigged wrong, I would rather take my chances on the recovery line than no line at all. (Again, assume here that this is the last person to go over and that the first people down went down the block that had been made safe at the anchor with a knot.).
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > IF she put the block the wrong side that may be (part of) the answer > of why she survived: the retrieving end of the rope would have whizzed > through the anchor point and slowed her down a bit depending on how > they intertwined. > We’ve been experimenting with such setups for emergency uses in cases > you have only one ropelength the height of the drop: hang the rope > double, mounted through a descender fixed at the anchor, or a munter > hitch. Attach yourself to one end and lower yourself with the other > until you run out of rope, hopefully near the bottom . In the worst > case halfway… > Let go of the rope’s end and hope that the friction brake mounted on > top will slow you down enough to let you safely descend on the other > end…
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> That said, rope blocks are a dangerous matter for newbies !!! The > ones who thaught her should think about this… first-timers you > show the basics: proper management of safety tethers, installation > of thick, double rope, no or a minimum of knots, concentrate on > rigging the descender, weighing of descender without unclipping the > safety tether… THOSE are the basics, NOT learning to rig a single > rope with a block on top and a retrieval line not fit for rappelling.
Koen > That’s an interesting take-away, Koen. But here is a simpler one:
People who have been taken down one canyon, and have no training, should not lead trips down technical canyons.
Tom
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > IF she put the block the wrong side that may be (part of) the answer > of why she survived: the retrieving end of the rope would have whizzed> through the anchor point and slowed her down a bit depending on how> they intertwined.
Seems likely. Add that there is a few feet of water at the bottom and much of the major injuries were to pelvis, one can envision a certain type of landing better than most one could think of. Remarkable nevertheless.
> That said, rope blocks are a dangerous matter for newbies !!! The ones> who taught her should think about this… first-timers you show the> basics: proper management of safety tethers, installation of thick,> double rope, no or a minimum of knots, concentrate on rigging the> descender, weighing of descender without unclipping the safety > tether… THOSE are the basics, NOT learning to rig a single rope with> a block on top and a retrieval line not fit for rappelling.
Regardless of how the accident occurred, I am in complete agreement. The arguments Koen and Brian made several months back swayed me in this direction. Thanx guys. That said, I think back, 7 years, to my 7 year old daughter on a double rope rap, stuck mid way down, hair in the device, right to her scalp….I guess the answer is an extra rope then. We were lucky that she was right at the height that a climb up the spring into the alcove behind accessed her. While still in love with single rope technique personally, I use it a bit less of the time now. And people say that the arguments on the board, on technique, anchors, etc. don’t ever shift opinions or change peoples minds! R
Koen
> I wonder though: What rope size and length; and what rap devices did > she and her friend AnnaMarie have that day? And how, does she fall > 100 ft. when legions of others, that have fallen 50, 30, or less ft. > had “lights out” results. It’s almost a twilight zone, attempting to > understand her survival and apparent healing. Best wishes to her and > her family. >
IF she put the block the wrong side that may be (part of) the answer of why she survived: the retrieving end of the rope would have whizzed through the anchor point and slowed her down a bit depending on how they intertwined. We’ve been experimenting with such setups for emergency uses in cases you have only one ropelength the height of the drop: hang the rope double, mounted through a descender fixed at the anchor, or a munter hitch. Attach yourself to one end and lower yourself with the other until you run out of rope, hopefully near the bottom . In the worst case halfway… Let go of the rope’s end and hope that the friction brake mounted on top will slow you down enough to let you safely descend on the other end…
DO NOT try this at home , or with a bomber anchor, dynamic rope and lots of deep water below. I hope I don’t need to draw a picture what would happen if the ascending rope would whiplash and block your semi-controlled fall on a rigid, thin rope like the canyon pro from Bluewater… either your back, the anchor or the rope would snap.
But unless someone saw her fall we might never know why she survived such a drop, let’s hope she’ll recover.
That said, rope blocks are a dangerous matter for newbies !!! The ones who thaught her should think about this… first-timers you show the bascis: proper management of safety tethers, installation of thick, double rope, no or a minimum of knots, concentrate on rigging the descender, weighing of descender without unclipping the safety tether… THOSE are the basics, NOT learning to rig a single rope with a block on top and a retrieval line not fit for rappelling.
I once saw a newbie fall 20 ft: her able companions (not me ) had rigged all previous rappels single rope with a block. The 4th rappel they had just put the rope double without any blocks and went on. Pretty obvious setup, but not for a newbie who was used to rigging her descender on one rope only… she “just” dislocated her elbow, (also ?) slowed down by the other end of the rope.
Koen
flutedwalls
I met Kaitlyn June 23, 08 and rode in her car for some 10-15 minutes – she was with her sister and another friend. She told me that she had arrived in Zion second week in June and had done “some technical canyons” and really enjoyed the experience. She planned on doing Das Boot “in a few days” and to do more canyons in July. As of July 30, had she done a technical canyon other than Pine Creek? I don’t know; her report may have included something like Keyhole or Orderville?
I wonder though: What rope size and length; and what rap devices did she and her friend AnnaMarie have that day? And how, does she fall 100 ft. when legions of others, that have fallen 50, 30, or less ft. had “lights out” results. It’s almost a twilight zone, attempting to understand her survival and apparent healing. Best wishes to her and her family.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
Certainly. And they will produce an accident report, usually quite carefully, when they have completed their investigation. Informal reports are that she set the block on the wrong side of the ring; and that perhaps this was only her second real technical canyon.
> Tom
Tom Jones
Certainly. And they will produce an accident report, usually quite carefully, when they have completed their investigation. Informal reports are that she set the block on the wrong side of the ring; and that perhaps this was only her second real technical canyon.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “David Campen” wrote:
So she thought that she was securely attached to the line. It would be > interesting to know what failed. Do the rangers try to preserve any > evidence when they respond to an accident?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “millcreek3640” wrote:
(from the caringbridge.org site; re Kaitlyn Bohlin)
…
The very last repel at Pine Creek is a hundred foot free hang repel
that takes you into a sandy alcove. The rope that we happened to be
using that day was a length required a single line repel, which I
had completed successfully and felt confident about this time
around. It was thus with minimal concern that I secured two safety
devices and got on the line to repel down. But, the next thing I
knew, I was on the ground incapable of moving like I had just woken
up from a dream, in fact it felt like a nightmare. It took me several
moments before I realized that this was reality, I had somehow fallen
the entire 100 foot length of this repel with nothing to stop me.
>
David Campen
So she thought that she was securely attached to the line. It would be interesting to know what failed. Do the rangers try to preserve any evidence when they respond to an accident?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “millcreek3640” wrote:
(from the caringbridge.org site; re Kaitlyn Bohlin) > … > The very last repel at Pine Creek is a hundred foot free hang repel > that takes you into a sandy alcove. The rope that we happened to be > using that day was a length required a single line repel, which I > had completed successfully and felt confident about this time > around. It was thus with minimal concern that I secured two safety > devices and got on the line to repel down. But, the next thing I > knew, I was on the ground incapable of moving like I had just woken > up from a dream, in fact it felt like a nightmare. It took me several > moments before I realized that this was reality, I had somehow fallen > the entire 100 foot length of this repel with nothing to stop me. >
millcreek3640
(from the caringbridge.org site; re Kaitlyn Bohlin)
The following was dictated by Kaitlyn (from her hospital bed) over the course of a few nights. These are her words, unedited.
Dear friends and family Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Hands down this has been the most amazing and impactful week of my life. Let me tell you a story about God’s perfect hand of faithfulness. My dear friend AnnaMalia came out to visit me in Zion this last week for good times and relaxation. Just as we were finding ourselves in the thralls of such enjoyment our trip and our lives reached a turning point. I had invited Anna to go through Pine Creek, a more basic but indeed challenging and exciting canyon here at Zion. The trip was enjoyable, but cold and smelly, as is often the case with canyons but we pressed on to two beautiful views. At times Anna was visibly nervous but she’s a trooper and I figured we could fight through it. The very last repel at Pine Creek is a hundred foot free hang repel that takes you into a sandy alcove. The rope that we happened to be using that day was a length required a single line repel, which I had completed successfully and felt confident about this time around. It was thus with minimal concern that I secured two safety devices and got on the line to repel down. But, the next thing I knew, I was on the ground incapable of moving like I had just woken up from a dream, in fact it felt like a nightmare. It took me several moments before I realized that this was reality, I had somehow fallen the entire 100 foot length of this repel with nothing to stop me. This was the most terrifying moment of my life. Theres no doubt that I could have and should have died and it’s still too much to ask how it is that I am dictating this…
___________ Tonite, No comment re canyon novices and hoped for dues. The more relevant, at least to me; that this young lady is recovering and and with us; a miracle really.
adkramoo
hank moon > Sent: Wednesday, 06 August 2008 11.59 > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Accident in Pine Creek
> Hello all > The following kindly provided by Ray O’Neil at Zion NP: > I think that cards, flowers, or posts to the website that her friends> and family created would be appreciated and would help with her> recovery. > Kaitlyn Bohlin > c/o University Medical Center > TICU Room 802 > 1800 West Charleston Blvd > Las Vegas, NV 89102 > http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/KaitlynBohlin
Amazing! http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/viewJournal.do?method=executeInit
W Reid White
Thanks Hank!
_____
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of hank moon Sent: Wednesday, 06 August 2008 11.59 To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Accident in Pine Creek
Hello all
The following kindly provided by Ray O’Neil at Zion NP:
I think that cards, flowers, or posts to the website that her friends and family created would be appreciated and would help with her recovery.
Kaitlyn Bohlin c/o University Medical Center TICU Room 802 1800 West Charleston Blvd Las Vegas, NV 89102
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/KaitlynBohlin
hank moon
Hello all
The following kindly provided by Ray O’Neil at Zion NP:
I think that cards, flowers, or posts to the website that her friends and family created would be appreciated and would help with her recovery.
Kaitlyn Bohlin c/o University Medical Center TICU Room 802 1800 West Charleston Blvd Las Vegas, NV 89102
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/KaitlynBohlin
adkramoo
-A little new info from the NPS AM report. Maintained consciousness? This is one tough gal!
Zion National Park (UT) Update On Rescue Of Injured Park Volunteer
On Wednesday, July 30th, Kaitlyn Bohlin, 23, a backcountry volunteer in Zion (not an SCA as was originally reported), was canyoneering with a friend on her day off in Pine Creek Canyon, a popular route that she had completed in the past. As she attempted the route’s final 100 foot rappel, Bohlin fell the entire distance of the rappel. Bohlin’s canyoneering companion immediately contacted park dispatch using Bohlin’s park radio, which had been left at the top of the rappel. Responding paramedic rangers Lisa Hendy and Brandon Torres from the Grand Canyon rappelled from a window in the Zion Tunnel to reach Bohlin, where they found her being cared for by another canyoneering group who had not seen but had heard the fall. Bohlin was able to talk to her rescuers, but was severely injured and could not recall exactly what had happened. The paramedic rangers provided advanced life support treatment while additional rescuers rappelled into the canyon. Bohlin was packaged, placed in a litter, and carried about a quarter mile to an area in the canyon where an Air Force Blackhawk helicopter could safely lift her and Air Force medics into the hovering craft. She was then transported via helicopter directly to the University Medical Center in Las Vegas. Bohlin remains in intensive care in critical condition with multiple severe traumatic injuries, but is showing signs of improvement. In addition to Zion and Grand Canyon personnel, rescuers and responders included personnel from Yellowstone, Glacier Bay, Guadalupe Mountains, and the US Secret Service who were all attending a US Secret Service Dignitary Protection training class that was being hosted by the park. An investigation into the cause of the accident is continuing. [Submitted by Bonnie Schwartz, Chief Ranger]
adkramoo
Unreal. Thanx for digging this up Steve. WOW!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “flutedwalls” wrote:
Note: What follows are 2 “responding posts” shown on the web page of > the St. George UT “Spectrum”, re the Kaitlyn Bohlin Pine Creek > accident. The first is an “alleged” report from her sister dated Aug > 3; the second on Aug 1,is “possibly” from our esteemed…(last rap > in Pine Ck. 65ft. vs. 100); one can drop into the pocket alcove via > an alternative rap which may be close to 65 ft.? Otherwise, > the “normal” last rap is what? Nearly 100 ft.with my ropes. Anyway, > on the positive side – Kaitlyns condition: Encouraging! Amazing! A > miracle! I hope her health and spirit continue to heal – more > prayers coming! > _____________ > Fishertrap – Kaitlyn is my sister. Thank you so much for posting > information regarding the rescue. Kaitlyn is making remarkable > progress. As of today, she is breathing without a respirator and was > asking for cookies and hamburgers. We are all shocked and feel so > blessed that she is alive and making such headway. The doctors are > extremely positive, and we could not be more grateful for all the > prayers and love that has been pointed in our direction. Tell your > brother that Kaitlyn remembers the boyscouts and smiles. While she > was still on the respirator she gave the boyscouts a thumbs-up and > one of the few smiles I saw while the tubes were still in. Thank you > to everyone out there who helped save my little sister’s life. She > is so precious to us, and we are unspeakably grateful she is still > with us. > 8/3/2008 9:07:43 PM
ratagonia 8/1/2008 8:49:02 PM Replying to LiberalView:. > Pine Creek Narrows is a stretch beginning at the east end of the > tunnel. The narrows section is 1/3 mile long. The last rappel is > actually about 65 feet and only for very well trained pros, not an > amatuer! The stream cascades over a huge boulder field for another > half mile which seems like two due to all the climbing over the > rocks. Carrying a victim out would be extremely difficult and very > risky for victim and crew. >
flutedwalls
Note: What follows are 2 “responding posts” shown on the web page of the St. George UT “Spectrum”, re the Kaitlyn Bohlin Pine Creek accident. The first is an “alleged” report from her sister dated Aug 3; the second on Aug 1,is “possibly” from our esteemed…(last rap in Pine Ck. 65ft. vs. 100); one can drop into the pocket alcove via an alternative rap which may be close to 65 ft.? Otherwise, the “normal” last rap is what? Nearly 100 ft.with my ropes. Anyway, on the positive side – Kaitlyns condition: Encouraging! Amazing! A miracle! I hope her health and spirit continue to heal – more prayers coming! _____________ Fishertrap – Kaitlyn is my sister. Thank you so much for posting information regarding the rescue. Kaitlyn is making remarkable progress. As of today, she is breathing without a respirator and was asking for cookies and hamburgers. We are all shocked and feel so blessed that she is alive and making such headway. The doctors are extremely positive, and we could not be more grateful for all the prayers and love that has been pointed in our direction. Tell your brother that Kaitlyn remembers the boyscouts and smiles. While she was still on the respirator she gave the boyscouts a thumbs-up and one of the few smiles I saw while the tubes were still in. Thank you to everyone out there who helped save my little sister’s life. She is so precious to us, and we are unspeakably grateful she is still with us. 8/3/2008 9:07:43 PM
ratagonia 8/1/2008 8:49:02 PM Replying to LiberalView:. Pine Creek Narrows is a stretch beginning at the east end of the tunnel. The narrows section is 1/3 mile long. The last rappel is actually about 65 feet and only for very well trained pros, not an amatuer! The stream cascades over a huge boulder field for another half mile which seems like two due to all the climbing over the rocks. Carrying a victim out would be extremely difficult and very risky for victim and crew.
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
It’s a safer more fun place wherever Ryan is, as long > as your not rappelling on core shot ropes! > Ryan is indeed a great guy. Unfortunately, I heard > from someone who was on the trip that he fell over 35 > this weekend feet due to a snapped rope!
He called from the road and expressed a desire to keep the incident and the players low key until such a time as the rope can be tested for the how and why. Apparently the rope was getting core shots all over the place on this trip. It had a long history without a problem, then a whole bunch of problems on this day. Tom and Hank have already been consulted and theories are out there. More later.
> I intend to call him today after work. He’s OK from > what I heard. More shaken up than anything, but he did > suffer some injuries, including his wrist. I hope > nothing is broken!
He is fine. It was an 80 foot rap and it was less than vertical, then under an overhang and then vertical in the lower section, where it broke, 35 feet above the edge of a pool. Ryan contacted rock that was sloped at 60+ degrees, took a glancing blow and right into the water. He came up to the surface, quite amazed to be alive. Took inventory of himself, found soreness on his hip and wrist, but nothing broken or debilitating to his continuing out the bottom. This occurred about 7 PM in the middle of the Lower Jump, just before they camped for the night. Scary, scary movie. Ryan always goes gentle on raps, being such a big boy. With pack, he weighed in at 280 pounds for the trip.
larsmpeterson
One would hope…
A desire to recover their rope?
T >
Randi
It’s a safer more fun place wherever Ryan is, as long as your not rappelling on core shot ropes!
Ryan is indeed a great guy. Unfortunately, I heard from someone who was on the trip that he fell over 35 this weekend feet due to a snapped rope!
I intend to call him today after work. He’s OK from what I heard. More shaken up than anything, but he did suffer some injuries, including his wrist. I hope nothing is broken!
The accident occurred in Lower Jump yesterday.
Be safe out there guys, and keep an eye on those ropes. It’s your life line for god’s sake. I hate it when sh*t like this happens. From what I heard, the “soft spot” WAS noticed by a newbie, but I didn’t get the story on why it wasn’t tied out of the equation or a different rope used.
~Randi
— jef levin jeflevin@yahoo.com> wrote:
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, ” > adkramoo@aol.com…> wrote:
I agree. The less “stuff” out there the better. The > less confusion the > better. BTW Jef, thank you for pointing my friend > and partner Ryan > Hull toward Michelle and the Upper and Lower Jump > combo they are doing > this weekend as an overnight. If you get the chance > to get out with > Ryan, I strongly recommend it. The world is a safer > and more fun place > wherever Ryan is. > Cheers > Ram
Different Ryan (we have at least 3 Ryans out this > way). I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting Ryan > Hull yet. I sent her a complete newbie (to > canyoneering, although a strong caver) instead. > Haven’t heard yet, but I’m sure he got hooked with > that combo.. > You ought to come out here yourself and check out > some of our canyons – lots of good new stuff getting > discovered! > – Jef > – Jef