I was out for a very nice trip through Double Play with the Gartners and a couple other AZ folks yesterday. Double Play is one of Ted & Connie’s recent explorations, described here http://gartneraz.com/DoublePlay.htm. While scrambling through the stream bed, I took a leaping step up onto a ledge with the outside of my right leg coming close to a boulder on my right side. Felt a major charlie-horse in my right thigh/hip. OUCH! Thought I must have slammed a carabiner hanging from my harness between the boulder and my leg. Looked down and saw that my lock-blade knife had somehow come open and the handle was sticking out of my leg, perpendicular to my leg, with the blade through my wetsuit and mostly in my leg. I thought to myself – no way, you have got to be kidding me. But it was true. Pulled out knife, told the group “you’re not going to believe this, but…”
On the bright side, it was a small knife, went in probably just shy of an inch. Bleeding obvious through the wetsuit, but not out of control. Leg injured, but still working well enough to continue gingerly at near normal pace. Still 2 raps, some wades/swims, and ~45 minutes of rock-hopping ahead until we would be ready to pack away wetsuits, so we decide to wait to clean and bandage at the canyon exit when we change. Although there was now a cut in my wetsuit, it seemed to help keep some of the dirt & algae out of the cut and possibly helped keep the bleeding down…hard to say for sure. When we got a look at the wound, stitches seemed in order, rinsed it with water, put on a band-aid and some medical tape. Superglue was discussed as possible home treatment, but I decided to go to urgent care instead to get a more thorough cleaning than I could do myself so as to avoid infection. They gave me nine stitches, antibiotics, pain killers. Thank goodness the open blade cut my leg and not the rope mid-rappel, or I might have needed much more extensive treatment.
I am certain that I did not leave the blade in the full open position because I saw the knife closed prior to the incident, so either the knife did not fully lock shut the last time I closed it, or it was in the fully closed and locked position but some scraping/rubbing managed to unlock the blade after which point it was snagged open or “fell” open. The knife has a rather large button on the side which dis-engages the lock on the blade…button too large? too easy to unlock? I posted a picture of the knife here – http://tinyurl.com/c8m5bn. I’m going to buy a different knife that is harder to unlock and doesn’t have this button on the side. I like to have my knife easily accessible, but will keep it inside a pocket from now on instead of dangling from my harness.
Interestingly, two of the four others on the trip had stories of either their knife or another partner’s knife coming open unintentionally at one time or another. Be careful with any assumptions that it will stay shut over the course of all the scraping and rubbing that can take place during a canyoneering (or rock climbing) outing. Now that I am among the select group of those who have impaled themselves with their own knife without either using their hands or falling down, hopefully you don’t have to be
Couple more lesson learned…don’t leave the first aid kit at home. On this particular day, I chose to leave my kit behind (thanks to Bill and Connie for the bandage and first aid tape used for the dressing). Bill also had the good suggestion that if you do carry your knife on your harness, keep it on the opposite side from your brake hand to keep it away from the rope while rappelling.
Lars
phatch
Kydex to the rescue. Kydex is a thermoplastic. Various grades are used for many things. On thing is for knife sheaths, including for folders. The bonus for folders is that it keeps the blade closed until you draw the knife. The kydex facilitates easy mounting in different locations and orientations and removal of the blade and is quite durable. It’s pretty easy to form and make a sheath on your own for a DIY project.
Various tutorials around the net including at instructables.com You can buy kydex in small sheets from places such as http://www.texasknife.com
Koen wrote: >> In running water, you’re absolutely right. In the usual CP canyon, pretty much anything that cuts will work. Since I’m old and fat, I like the super lightweigtht, minimal solution so I don’t have to carry extra weight. >
> Not only in running water, I’ve seen a few people fumble for their knife dangling off a (dry) rope with their head jammed sideways against their descender – hair caught – and in great pain. > All had a lot of trouble getting their knife out, which is perfectly understandable if you take into account that every mm lower on rope resulted in further scalping… so they had to avoid descending even the tiniest bit, grabbing the rope for dear life (and scalp) and at the same time getting their knife out and open with their neck twisted sideways and downwards.
But there are lightweight and compact fixed, sheated blades. Like this one: http://www.altrec.com/gerber/river-shorty-knife
Problem is… it doesn’t cut.
For me, a decent blade has to be able to cut through a stiff, used, 10mm static line held between two hands in one stroke. That way you’re certain that it’ll do the trick too with your weight on it – which makes it easier to cut. > The Gerber is pretty cool, but needs 3 or 4 strokes…
In my opinion sturdy and dependable always wins out on lightweight and probably-will-do in a canyon environment. Which is pretty hard on equimpent.
Koen
>
Koen
In running water, you’re absolutely right. In the usual CP canyon, pretty much anything that cuts will work. Since I’m old and fat, I like the super lightweigtht, minimal solution so I don’t have to carry extra weight. >
Not only in running water, I’ve seen a few people fumble for their knife dangling off a (dry) rope with their head jammed sideways against their descender – hair caught – and in great pain. All had a lot of trouble getting their knife out, which is perfectly understandable if you take into account that every mm lower on rope resulted in further scalping… so they had to avoid descending even the tiniest bit, grabbing the rope for dear life (and scalp) and at the same time getting their knife out and open with their neck twisted sideways and downwards.
But there are lightweight and compact fixed, sheated blades. Like this one: http://www.altrec.com/gerber/river-shorty-knife Problem is… it doesn’t cut.
For me, a decent blade has to be able to cut through a stiff, used, 10mm static line held between two hands in one stroke. That way you’re certain that it’ll do the trick too with your weight on it – which makes it easier to cut. The Gerber is pretty cool, but needs 3 or 4 strokes…
In my opinion sturdy and dependable always wins out on lightweight and probably-will-do in a canyon environment. Which is pretty hard on equimpent.
Koen
gajslk
In running water, you’re absolutely right. In the usual CP canyon, pretty much anything that cuts will work. Since I’m old and fat, I like the super lightweigtht, minimal solution so I don’t have to carry extra weight. Brian makes a good point about the ergos on the Russell I like. I’ve got small hands and it works ok, but if you’ve got big mitts you might find it a bit hard to hold comfortably.
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
A good knife setup would include:
– a knife that can be pulled with numb, cold fingers, blind(ed) and in a panic. This leaves most, if not all folding knives. It’s ok to flip one open over beers to impress your buddies, but not in real life emergencies. > – blunt tip. See the reason at the start of this topic (hope it heals well). > – some kind of retainer device to keep your knife sheated. Standard push buttons aren’t enough.
My setup is as follows: a decent fixed blade (this one for instance, but there are others http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SCHWR1). The webbing of my right leg loop is threaded through theplastic sheat (not slid on). I don’t use the webbing sheat. > I’ve attached a very strong rubber band to the hole in the handle. The rubber band is just long enough to firmly loop down over the tip of the sheat. Effectively locking the knife in the sheat.
When drawing, I slip my hand inside the rubber loop, thus unhooking the band from over the tip of the sheat. Giving a firm tug on the handle frees the knife, no need to worry with the button on the sheat. > The added advantage of this setup is that after drawing, the knife is secured around your wrist with the rubber loop. Can’t loose or drop it when drawn.
Works like a charm, even when half-drowning under water…
I once switched to a Petzl Spatha and had “one of those moments” (somebody else in trouble this time ). A Spatha, nor any othe rfolding knife won’t come near my belt ever again, too difficult to open and handle in real emergencies.
Koen >
Koen
A good knife setup would include:
– a knife that can be pulled with numb, cold fingers, blind(ed) and in a panic. This leaves most, if not all folding knives. It’s ok to flip one open over beers to impress your buddies, but not in real life emergencies. – blunt tip. See the reason at the start of this topic (hope it heals well). – some kind of retainer device to keep your knife sheated. Standard push buttons aren’t enough.
My setup is as follows: a decent fixed blade (this one for instance, but there are others http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SCHWR1). The webbing of my right leg loop is threaded through theplastic sheat (not slid on). I don’t use the webbing sheat. I’ve attached a very strong rubber band to the hole in the handle. The rubber band is just long enough to firmly loop down over the tip of the sheat. Effectively locking the knife in the sheat.
When drawing, I slip my hand inside the rubber loop, thus unhooking the band from over the tip of the sheat. Giving a firm tug on the handle frees the knife, no need to worry with the button on the sheat. The added advantage of this setup is that after drawing, the knife is secured around your wrist with the rubber loop. Can’t loose or drop it when drawn.
Works like a charm, even when half-drowning under water…
I once switched to a Petzl Spatha and had “one of those moments” (somebody else in trouble this time ). A Spatha, nor any othe rfolding knife won’t come near my belt ever again, too difficult to open and handle in real emergencies.
Koen
Tom Jones
I also have a “Rescue Knife” mounted on my life jacket. Might bring it if doing high-water Class C canyons. For ordinary stuff, one-hand opening not required.
T
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
That Gerber is a nice looking knife. I think a blunt tip makes a bunch of sense for a “rescue” type knife.
Although, if you needed to use it in an emergency, and one-handed, that keeper cord arrangement might make it tough to deploy in a pinch. Of course, clipped on one side of a harness might not be optimal either.
Can’t believe how small that Buck was, and, that it became open. Yikes! Thought when I read the post title that it would have been a much bigger knife.
Not sure its optimal, but, I wear my knife (a small Spyderco Jester) on a lanyard and tuck it into the front of my wetsuit, below the neck. The lanyard is one of those ones that releases if you pull on it. I can easily get to it one handed and quickly.
Seen and heard of folks wearing knives in a number of places for quick deployment. The hard shell sheath on the forearm is kinda interesting. Too “in-the-way” for me. Also see the fixed blade sheath on packs, harnesses, etc.
That small AG Russel bird knife in the hard plastic holder is “ok” (I have one). I just don’t think its both secure enough and easy enough to deploy. I also don’t find the knife very “ergo”. Hmmm…
-Brian in SLC
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
I recently added a knife to my pack and my store that, modified, deals with this issue of the surprisingly-open knife. Plus a blunt tip. Serendipitously, this Gerber knife had no metal in the way of my drill hole, so I was able to put in a “blade holder” with the cord. Might work on other knives.
http://tinyurl.com/c5bcct
> Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “larsmpeterson” wrote:
I was out for a very nice trip through Double Play with the Gartners and a couple other AZ folks yesterday. Double Play is one of Ted & Connie’s recent explorations, described here http://gartneraz.com/DoublePlay.htm. While scrambling through the stream bed, I took a leaping step up onto a ledge with the outside of my right leg coming close to a boulder on my right side. Felt a major charlie-horse in my right thigh/hip. OUCH! Thought I must have slammed a carabiner hanging from my harness between the boulder and my leg. Looked down and saw that my lock-blade knife had somehow come open and the handle was sticking out of my leg, perpendicular to my leg, with the blade through my wetsuit and mostly in my leg. I thought to myself – no way, you have got to be kidding me. But it was true. Pulled out knife, told the group “you’re not going to believe this, but…” >
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ron Graham” wrote:
This one fits nicely on a biner, the handle offers great leverage, it’s big enough to quickly find on a crowded rack, it cuts rope and webbing with ease, and it NEVER seems to open unless you want it to:
http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Petzl/idesc/Spatha+Serrated+Knife+-+Small/Store/MG/item/640110/N/0
Yeah, I carry that one too: http://tinyurl.com/cqbbb2
And have carried it on my harness for about a year. It gets dull quickly, becomes difficult to open, and yet, still tends to open up while you are walking (thus I put a fat rubber band around it). And, while it has a carabiner hole, it does not really fit on most carabiners well, needs a Petzl William or an Attach (I like using a smaller biner for my knife). This last easily fixed by putting a short sling on the carabiner hole.
Tom
Ron Graham
This one fits nicely on a biner, the handle offers great leverage, it’s big enough to quickly find on a crowded rack, it cuts rope and webbing with ease, and it NEVER seems to open unless you want it to:
http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Petzl/idesc/Spatha+Serrated+Knife+-+Small/Store/MG/item/640110/N/0
larsmpeterson
Ah – c’mon, we wanted the picture of the knife sticking out of your leg!!!
Tom >
Sorry…but that picture would have had to been taken *very* quickly, before the implement was immediately yanked out, so the moment was not fully documented
Lars
larsmpeterson
> Can’t believe how small that Buck was, and, that it became open. Yikes! Thought when I read the post title that it would have been a much bigger knife.
Yeah, thank goodness it wasn’t much bigger! I added one more photo to the same album ( http://tinyurl.com/c8m5bn ) which shows the knife in the closed position. This picture more clearly shows how the circular release button is the highest point on the side of the knife, making it easy to inadvertently push. Also, there is texture made into the metal of the blade that protrudes out when the blade is closed. This wavey texture is meant serve as a grip for your finger to make the knife easy to open with the stroke of your finger. Pulling your finger over those little ribs very easy opens the knife; in fact it opens much easier this way than by grabbing the back of the blade in the more conventional style of opening a lock-blade knife with two hands. Rubbing on those two points is I think how it got opened up. How it slammed against my leg at the very moment it was pointing perpendicularly at it is a whole nother coincidence
The blunt tip in Tom’s link does look like a very nice feature! Probably would have made the difference in my case.
Lars
beadysee
That Gerber is a nice looking knife. I think a blunt tip makes a bunch of sense for a “rescue” type knife.
Although, if you needed to use it in an emergency, and one-handed, that keeper cord arrangement might make it tough to deploy in a pinch. Of course, clipped on one side of a harness might not be optimal either.
Can’t believe how small that Buck was, and, that it became open. Yikes! Thought when I read the post title that it would have been a much bigger knife.
Not sure its optimal, but, I wear my knife (a small Spyderco Jester) on a lanyard and tuck it into the front of my wetsuit, below the neck. The lanyard is one of those ones that releases if you pull on it. I can easily get to it one handed and quickly.
Seen and heard of folks wearing knives in a number of places for quick deployment. The hard shell sheath on the forearm is kinda interesting. Too “in-the-way” for me. Also see the fixed blade sheath on packs, harnesses, etc.
That small AG Russel bird knife in the hard plastic holder is “ok” (I have one). I just don’t think its both secure enough and easy enough to deploy. I also don’t find the knife very “ergo”. Hmmm…
-Brian in SLC
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
I recently added a knife to my pack and my store that, modified, deals with this issue of the surprisingly-open knife. Plus a blunt tip. Serendipitously, this Gerber knife had no metal in the way of my drill hole, so I was able to put in a “blade holder” with the cord. Might work on other knives.
http://tinyurl.com/c5bcct
> Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “larsmpeterson” wrote:
I was out for a very nice trip through Double Play with the Gartners and a couple other AZ folks yesterday. Double Play is one of Ted & Connie’s recent explorations, described here http://gartneraz.com/DoublePlay.htm. While scrambling through the stream bed, I took a leaping step up onto a ledge with the outside of my right leg coming close to a boulder on my right side. Felt a major charlie-horse in my right thigh/hip. OUCH! Thought I must have slammed a carabiner hanging from my harness between the boulder and my leg. Looked down and saw that my lock-blade knife had somehow come open and the handle was sticking out of my leg, perpendicular to my leg, with the blade through my wetsuit and mostly in my leg. I thought to myself – no way, you have got to be kidding me. But it was true. Pulled out knife, told the group “you’re not going to believe this, but…”
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “larsmpeterson” wrote:
> Your link wouldn’t work for me.
The period got included. This should work
http://tinyurl.com/c8m5bn
Ah – c’mon, we wanted the picture of the knife sticking out of your leg!!!
Tom
Tom Jones
I recently added a knife to my pack and my store that, modified, deals with this issue of the surprisingly-open knife. Plus a blunt tip. Serendipitously, this Gerber knife had no metal in the way of my drill hole, so I was able to put in a “blade holder” with the cord. Might work on other knives.
http://tinyurl.com/c5bcct
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “larsmpeterson” wrote:
I was out for a very nice trip through Double Play with the Gartners and a couple other AZ folks yesterday. Double Play is one of Ted & Connie’s recent explorations, described here http://gartneraz.com/DoublePlay.htm. While scrambling through the stream bed, I took a leaping step up onto a ledge with the outside of my right leg coming close to a boulder on my right side. Felt a major charlie-horse in my right thigh/hip. OUCH! Thought I must have slammed a carabiner hanging from my harness between the boulder and my leg. Looked down and saw that my lock-blade knife had somehow come open and the handle was sticking out of my leg, perpendicular to my leg, with the blade through my wetsuit and mostly in my leg. I thought to myself – no way, you have got to be kidding me. But it was true. Pulled out knife, told the group “you’re not going to believe this, but…”
On the bright side, it was a small knife, went in probably just shy of an inch. Bleeding obvious through the wetsuit, but not out of control. Leg injured, but still working well enough to continue gingerly at near normal pace. Still 2 raps, some wades/swims, and ~45 minutes of rock-hopping ahead until we would be ready to pack away wetsuits, so we decide to wait to clean and bandage at the canyon exit when we change. Although there was now a cut in my wetsuit, it seemed to help keep some of the dirt & algae out of the cut and possibly helped keep the bleeding down…hard to say for sure. When we got a look at the wound, stitches seemed in order, rinsed it with water, put on a band-aid and some medical tape. Superglue was discussed as possible home treatment, but I decided to go to urgent care instead to get a more thorough cleaning than I could do myself so as to avoid infection. They gave me nine stitches, antibiotics, pain killers. Thank goodness the open blade cut my leg and not the rope mid-rappel, or I might have needed much more extensive treatment.
I am certain that I did not leave the blade in the full open position because I saw the knife closed prior to the incident, so either the knife did not fully lock shut the last time I closed it, or it was in the fully closed and locked position but some scraping/rubbing managed to unlock the blade after which point it was snagged open or “fell” open. The knife has a rather large button on the side which dis-engages the lock on the blade…button too large? too easy to unlock? I posted a picture of the knife here – http://tinyurl.com/c8m5bn. I’m going to buy a different knife that is harder to unlock and doesn’t have this button on the side. I like to have my knife easily accessible, but will keep it inside a pocket from now on instead of dangling from my harness.
Interestingly, two of the four others on the trip had stories of either their knife or another partner’s knife coming open unintentionally at one time or another. Be careful with any assumptions that it will stay shut over the course of all the scraping and rubbing that can take place during a canyoneering (or rock climbing) outing. Now that I am among the select group of those who have impaled themselves with their own knife without either using their hands or falling down, hopefully you don’t have to be
Couple more lesson learned…don’t leave the first aid kit at home. On this particular day, I chose to leave my kit behind (thanks to Bill and Connie for the bandage and first aid tape used for the dressing). Bill also had the good suggestion that if you do carry your knife on your harness, keep it on the opposite side from your brake hand to keep it away from the rope while rappelling.
Lars >
gajslk
Interesting. The other knife I’ve seen open up like that was also a Buck, also with the can-opener type clip point on the end of the handle. Dave’s was a larger model. Very similar, though. Scary.
I think I’d have to consider these to be time bombs in canyons.
One hand operation is nice, but I’ve never really needed more than a Swiss Army knife, which I carry anyway …
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “larsmpeterson” wrote:
> Your link wouldn’t work for me.
The period got included. This should work
http://tinyurl.com/c8m5bn
larsmpeterson
Your link wouldn’t work for me.
The period got included. This should work
http://tinyurl.com/c8m5bn
gajslk
Your link wouldn’t work for me. The best knife I’ve found for canyons is this one:
http://www.agrussell.com/product.asp?pn=RU-T914-10A
It’s incredibly small and light. I tie it to my harness with a loop of 3mm cord and a tiny quick-link. Since it’s dangling, and the button is in-line with the blade and sheath, it’s hard for the button to get pushed accidentally. I’ve never had it come loose. I have lost other knives and have had them come unclipped from my harness while downclimbing. Since this one is a fixed blade, you do away with all of the problems that folders have. The sheath is bombproof.
I’m a bit of a knife-nut and have tried a half-dozen different knives in canyons and this one is numero uno.
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “larsmpeterson” wrote:
I was out for a very nice trip through Double Play with the Gartners and a couple other AZ folks yesterday. Double Play is one of Ted & Connie’s recent explorations, described here http://gartneraz.com/DoublePlay.htm. While scrambling through the stream bed, I took a leaping step up onto a ledge with the outside of my right leg coming close to a boulder on my right side. Felt a major charlie-horse in my right thigh/hip. OUCH! Thought I must have slammed a carabiner hanging from my harness between the boulder and my leg. Looked down and saw that my lock-blade knife had somehow come open and the handle was sticking out of my leg, perpendicular to my leg, with the blade through my wetsuit and mostly in my leg. I thought to myself – no way, you have got to be kidding me. But it was true. Pulled out knife, told the group “you’re not going to believe this, but…”
On the bright side, it was a small knife, went in probably just shy of an inch. Bleeding obvious through the wetsuit, but not out of control. Leg injured, but still working well enough to continue gingerly at near normal pace. Still 2 raps, some wades/swims, and ~45 minutes of rock-hopping ahead until we would be ready to pack away wetsuits, so we decide to wait to clean and bandage at the canyon exit when we change. Although there was now a cut in my wetsuit, it seemed to help keep some of the dirt & algae out of the cut and possibly helped keep the bleeding down…hard to say for sure. When we got a look at the wound, stitches seemed in order, rinsed it with water, put on a band-aid and some medical tape. Superglue was discussed as possible home treatment, but I decided to go to urgent care instead to get a more thorough cleaning than I could do myself so as to avoid infection. They gave me nine stitches, antibiotics, pain killers. Thank goodness the open blade cut my leg and not the rope mid-rappel, or I might have needed much more extensive treatment.
I am certain that I did not leave the blade in the full open position because I saw the knife closed prior to the incident, so either the knife did not fully lock shut the last time I closed it, or it was in the fully closed and locked position but some scraping/rubbing managed to unlock the blade after which point it was snagged open or “fell” open. The knife has a rather large button on the side which dis-engages the lock on the blade…button too large? too easy to unlock? I posted a picture of the knife here – http://tinyurl.com/c8m5bn. I’m going to buy a different knife that is harder to unlock and doesn’t have this button on the side. I like to have my knife easily accessible, but will keep it inside a pocket from now on instead of dangling from my harness.
Interestingly, two of the four others on the trip had stories of either their knife or another partner’s knife coming open unintentionally at one time or another. Be careful with any assumptions that it will stay shut over the course of all the scraping and rubbing that can take place during a canyoneering (or rock climbing) outing. Now that I am among the select group of those who have impaled themselves with their own knife without either using their hands or falling down, hopefully you don’t have to be
Couple more lesson learned…don’t leave the first aid kit at home. On this particular day, I chose to leave my kit behind (thanks to Bill and Connie for the bandage and first aid tape used for the dressing). Bill also had the good suggestion that if you do carry your knife on your harness, keep it on the opposite side from your brake hand to keep it away from the rope while rappelling.
Lars >