pics and story up on The Rave
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/
enjoy.
Discuss?
Tom
Yahoo Canyons Group
pics and story up on The Rave
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/
enjoy.
Discuss?
Tom
RAM
Finally caught up on the posts…Gordon…as engineers have know forever….it is really hard to make things foolproof…because fools are so ingenious. I resemble that remark 😉
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Gordon” wrote:
Given how many people with very little skill do the Subway every year, I think that the effort to make it more fool proof is well spent.
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
pics and story up on The Rave
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/
> enjoy.
Discuss?
Tom
>
aj.outdoors
Agree.
While I usually side with Tim (don’t like adding new bolts anywhere), I think the Subway is a special case that sees lots of traffic, many of them beginners; and feel that this is one place where we should do what we can to easily show safe passage (and reduce rope scars like your first anchor did.) Appreciate your efforts Tom!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Gordon” wrote:
Given how many people with very little skill do the Subway every year, I think that the effort to make it more fool proof is well spent.
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
pics and story up on The Rave
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/
> enjoy.
Discuss?
Tom
>
uberadventures
Installing thoughtful bolts to assist rookies and intermediates in a newbie canyon … outrageous! The comments from the Housewives of the Colorado Plateau … priceless! Klaus
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@… wrote:
People installed ladders on the tallest mountain in the world. Why not canyons?
> Really? More bolts in a canyon that didn’t need any to begin with?
I > don’t know – I have mixed feelings about this. I know this is a popular > canyon for newbies, but at what point do we stop catering to beginners? > Are installed ladders the next step? Instruction boards at each > obstacle?
—– Original Message —– > From: Tim Hoover Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Anchor work in the Subway
Replyer > Reply to group Start a New TopicMessages in this topic > (2)
cent Activity:New Members1New Photos1Visit Your Group
>
rging@q.com
People installed ladders on the tallest mountain in the world. Why not canyons?
Really? More bolts in a canyon that didn’t need any to begin with?
I don’t know – I have mixed feelings about this. I know this is a popular canyon for newbies, but at what point do we stop catering to beginners? Are installed ladders the next step? Instruction boards at each obstacle?
—– Original Message —– From: Tim Hoover frisbeedog02@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 16:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Anchor work in the Subway
Replyer Reply to group Start a New TopicMessages in this topic (2)
cent Activity:New Members1New Photos1Visit Your Group
Buzz Burrell
Good job Tom, and thank you for recognizing beginners and big groups like to handline rather than rappel, and the anchors should be placed accordingly.
Anchor replacement initiatives are a big and highly respected aspect of climbing, and since most canyoneering is largely nothing but using anchors, it is even more important in this sport. We want to learn, grow, challenge ourselves, and have fun, and dying because a little piece of nylon or steel is inadequate is stupid, not brave.
But the bigger reason on trade routes like the Subway I think, is environmental preservation. Thousands of people are going thru there, so rather than multiple variations festooned with tat, establishing a very clear and safe route will reduce impact.
The best example is here above Boulder – about 30 years ago a sequence of massive (5/8″?) eyebolts was placed marching up the Third Flatiron. The rappel routes have a two of the same, with flat rings around them stamped with directions on which way to go and how long the rap is. The impact of this was: nothing. And that’s the point – since then, everyone follows the bolts, doesn’t mess up the beautiful rock trying to place gear, and don’t end up at the end of their rope 40′ off the ground requiring messy rescues.
The environment benefits from this clean and safe system, while the majority of climbers go elsewhere because they want more of a sense of challenge and adventure. Which just like in canyoneering, can be readily found.
BB
Wayne Burns
I’m not sure how I view the general concept of changing bolt locations/adding bolts, but based upon my experience of early career efforts rappelling down the first obstacle (giant boulder) from the pinch on canyon right (and the annoying rope pull that came with it) bolts farther down the face of the boulder seem like an option worth considering (especially because there are bolts there anyway). Is the crossing of the flow above the “waterfall room”/log anchor truly that difficult or distressing? I have always simply hopped across, except for the one time (2007) when I rappelled from the logs. I didn’t remember thinking it was very tough to cross, but perhaps I have an inflated sense of self-confidence. I must admit that the technique Kip showed me for descending that last drop on our full left fork last september was much more fun than a handline… Thanks for engaging on this topic & for opening yourself to criticism; I surely do not feel confident enough in any of my views to criticize, but I know many folks anonymously descending the canyon will appreciate that someone engaged in anchor maintenance. Are you concerned that changing the location of the final rappel anchor to the other side of the canyon will be something that folks with older beta will fail to be aware of? Cheers, Wayne
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: ratagonia@gmail.com Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 18:57:44 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Anchor work in the Subway
pics and story up on The Rave
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/
enjoy.
Discuss?
Tom
Gordon
Given how many people with very little skill do the Subway every year, I think that the effort to make it more fool proof is well spent.
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
pics and story up on The Rave
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/
> enjoy.
Discuss?
Tom >
Tim Hoover
Really? More bolts in a canyon that didn’t need any to begin with? Â I don’t know – I have mixed feelings about this. I know this is a popular canyon for newbies, but at what point do we stop catering to beginners? Are installed ladders the next step? Instruction boards at each obstacle? Â I know a guy died there recently, but at some point people are going to die no matter what. Will making Subway even simpler lead to greater safety, or lesser? By giving people a false sense of confidence are we encouraging them to get in over their heads in other places? Will this practice spread to other areas? (Answer: Yes, absolutely. It already has.) I’m sure that as more and more people die and/or need to be rescued the park will place more and more restrictions on canyoneering activities. I worry that by encouraging people with fewer and fewer skills, we are contributing to the problem.
I could be wrong – but I doubt it. Sorry Tom, no love on this one. Â Tim
________________________________ From: TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 11:57 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Anchor work in the Subway
pics and story up on The Rave
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/zion-national-park-subway-anchor-work-sept-2012/
enjoy.
Discuss?
Tom
—
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