Neil, how much experience do you have using dynamic half ropes in canyons? I’ve used ’em quite a bit and there is really no problem PROVIDED you know the limitations of the rope. It’s like any other piece of gear – really. How many folks use 9/16″ webbing in canyons? Is that OK, or is 1″ tube the minimum standard? How about natural anchors? Tied webbing harnesses? Bicyle helmets? No-one is saying that half ropes perform as well as purpose-built canyoneering rope in all situations. That would be absurd. But…equally absurd would be to claim the converse. You have been a big proponent of Canyon Pro in the past. Does that work for every contingency? What if you were forced to escape a canyon using lead climbing techniques? Want the sharp end of a Canyon Pro? ;-)
hank
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beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Buzz Burrell wrote: > Really long report on our trip by Bill:
Great read!
“I even forgot to tell you about the hangnail I had; wicked.”
Classic.
Only feel I have for this is a climb of the Mace with Opie (amend that to, got dragged up the Mace by Opie) and he gave his and Bill’s speed ascent time. Yikes. I think we were number 16 for Greg. Still, no approach…
Fun stuff, thanks Buzz.
Brian in SLC ps: check out http://www.door5.com. Some fun speed stuff in there. Was a video of a speed ascent of a local rock climb here in SLC called Steorts Ridge on the Dead Snag Arete. Sure, it ain’t the third flatiron, but… Yee haa.
Buzz Burrell
I think Hank addressed this well, and then Tom summarized the issue brilliantly with:
> So yeah, what someone else said. Apply with discretion. Be smart.
My purely personal additional comments and then an example:
1. Ropes almost never break 2. People almost always make mistakes
When one understands the difference between these two, I think one will be a lot safer. The equipment isn’t the weak link, we are. This is notoriously true of rappelling, which is much of what canyoneering is. Case in point:
Last weekend we were doing a speed climb of Zoroaster Temple in the Grand Canyon. Since this is usually done in 3 days and we were going for one day, and it opens with a 4,800′ run down from the South Rim carrying full climbing gear, then carrying all the water one needs for the day climbs 4th and 5th class ledges for 4,200′ just to get to the bottom of the climb, we were using the original-message-question 1/2 rope as our single lead rope. Even though it was 5 pitches rated 5.9, we felt comfy leading on our 8.2 mm.
Everything went great, the summit was splendid, the raps off the tower were spectacular. 12 hours into it we were hauling ass out of there, trying to make time thru the incredibly intricate traverses and downclimbs of the GC Redwall. We came to a set of fixed ropes we hadn’t seen on the way up, which we were very happy to make use of. My partner clipped in to one (rapping doubled ropes is too slow), and leaned back, ready to zip down.
“Whoa, Bill”, our other ropemate said. “These puppies aren’t fixed.”
Yikes. Bill has climbed the Nose in a day, and just led the 5.9 off-width airy finish to our climb on one well-used 8.2 mm double, but almost cratered because he presumed the two ropes not rigged to pull down, but instead were fixed, because they appeared to be left there for that purpose. He didn’t check the anchor. Very basic, very nearly fatal mistake by an expert.
(After we posted our report to GCclimbing, we got a lot of responses about our 18 hr trip, including one from the party who left those ropes – they went 3 weeks previous, they took 25 hours r/t from just Phantom Ranch, it was 3 AM when they set that rappel, they never intended to fix it, they simply were too exhausted to get ’em down, abandoning them to the cause).
So … yeah, your rope’s probably OK; we’re the part that’s most likely to malfunction.
Buzz Boulder CO
Nice Outside Magazine article that got us on the case, called “Temple of Zoomâ€: http://outside.away.com/outside/adventure/200106/200106hardway.html Really long report on our trip by Bill: http://www.wwwright.com/climbing/tripreports/2005/ZoroasterBrahma.htm
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “W.B.” wrote: > Do you really think that constructing a haul system would happen more often than small amounts of lead climbing in canyoneering?
Read any glacier travel or crevasse rescue type book.
I’ve done way more rigging for hauling on a skinny dynamic rope in the glaciated mountains than in any canyon situation.
Commonly done.
Very uncommon to rig a raise or haul in a canyon (not that I’d care to with a skinny cord, dynamic or static!). Especially compared to glacier travel scenarios. And, those are most common with skinny dynamic ropes.
I’d guess most climbers come into learning about hauling, Z, Z by C, etc, from practicing glacier travel and crevasse rescue especially on a skinny cord.
-Brian in SLC
Rich Carlson
True, Bill, but if you read between the lines, you’d know I meant to give them to a left wing radical student, so when they fail, the world would not suffer a serious loss.
Testing your sense of humor.
> Rich advised Paul to get a new rope because he can afford it. That’s > decent advice since he didn’t try to overly put down using dynamic > ropes in canyons. He stuck to the facts that he knew to be true and > didn’t try to put down others with attacks on what they didn’t say. > Interestingly, he gave even less warnings that I did. He not only > said half ropes would work, he implicitly endorsed giving them to > someone poor to use for canyoneering.
W.B.
On May 9, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Neil wrote:
> I’ve never been forced to do a lot of things until I was forced to. > My buddy did Chop in a shortie last June and almost keeled over from > heat becasue he was working so hard. I wonder what his off the cuff > recommendation for wetsuits in chop would have been? YMMV
And your point is? That any person should use wetsuits (or not) appropriate to the conditions? I would hope that goes without saying but it’s often warned on these lists that conditions change. Neil, this is a “sport” that can kill you from objective and subjective dangers. A certain basic level of knowledge is often required to keep yourself alive, although sometimes blind luck seems to keep people safe. These boards are open forums for the exchange of information about canyoneering. As such, they can provide just enough information to kill oneself, or they can help people exchange information with others who may know valuable information that will keep others alive and safe.
When a question is asked and I feel I have information to contribute that is valid, and I have the time and desire to reply I contribute my point of view. What do you think should have been said to Paul? Tell him not to use the ropes at all? They’ve been used safely by many people here and elsewhere. Amazingly, many people here and especially in Europe retreat (and climb and fall from in the first place) from climbs rappelling using those same half or twin ropes with rocks that have more sharp edges that you’ll find in most water- smoothed canyons. These lists are open forums and a great place to ask these kind of questions because bad advice will likely be quickly disputed. Everyone here who’s spoken up who has actually used half ropes in canyons has said they’re OK with a few caveats just like I said.
Rich advised Paul to get a new rope because he can afford it. That’s decent advice since he didn’t try to overly put down using dynamic ropes in canyons. He stuck to the facts that he knew to be true and didn’t try to put down others with attacks on what they didn’t say. Interestingly, he gave even less warnings that I did. He not only said half ropes would work, he implicitly endorsed giving them to someone poor to use for canyoneering.
-Quote follows (edited): -snip
Given the fact that we have to choose between static and dynamic, static is the better choice for canyoneering. Of course dynamic will work, but it is not ideal. It is definitely more prone to abrasion while rappelling.
Paul, I know you. I’ve been to your awesome home. You can afford a new rope. Go out and buy some Canyon Pro and donate your old 1/2 ropes to some starving college kids who can’t afford to buy their own Canyon Pro.
-End quote
Why aren’t you attacking his position? Rich basically is telling a climber to pass off his old half ropes to someone who may not be a climber, presumably is younger and less experienced, may not be familiar with the shortcomings of half ropes and to use them for canyoneering. Just how is that better than what I’m saying? By your own standards Rich’s advice was at best inappropriate. You seem to have a different standard for what’s said based on whether Rich or anyone else says it vs. myself.
Are you disagreeing with my specific warnings? What about my warnings wasn’t “thoughtful” just like Hank’s posts? You are still attacking me on the “right” tool, jeez man, read my posts. Did you see all the warnings? How can you possibly construe that as “the right tool”? What tortuous logic do you use to go from “less preferred” to “the right tool”? Is there any substantive difference in this context between “better choice” and “less preferred”? It seems to me you are either deliberately distorting my point of view for your own reasons or you did not read my posts throughly.
Yes, I and others will continue to happily use our half ropes since we don’t have to pay more for them, or they’re the right size, length and weight, or we aren’t bothered if they’re lost or damaged or cut up for anchor sling or a variety of other reasons. And we don’t have any problem saying so in public. Happily using something because it saves some money, weight or space is far from claiming it’s the right tool.
Do you really think that constructing a haul system would happen more often than small amounts of lead climbing in canyoneering? In any case, if you anticipate as a likely consequence then you should bring a fat static, your responsibility not mine, I only recommended half ropes for single person rap loads. Plan for the expected and the likely unexpected. Put me down on the list for never needing a haul system yet but lead climbing lots of times. A good case could be made that having a dynamic rope around (even an old half rope) could be far better than having a static rope in the most likely emergency situations. I gave plenty of valid warnings about the shortcomings of half ropes for canyoneering. Kindly give people some credit for intelligence in understanding the advice they’ve been given.
We just had the thread about reverse sandbagging ratings. Your position appears to be similar, overly sell any difficulties and dangers so we’re not responsible for people misunderstanding anything and hurting themselves as a consequence. That is bad advice in my opinion. If you keep accurate information from people, especially when they ask in an appropriate forum they will have a hard time forming correct judgments. Treat adults like children, give them only what you think they should know, and you shouldn’t be surprised when there are undesirable consequences because they didn’t know and understand the full story. And you will bear moral responsibility in that case because you kept them from learning even though they tried to learn more in an appropriate fashion. Deliberately keeping someone ignorant when they are trying to learn at the very least isn’t polite.
Valid and complete answers to technical questions are appropriate for the Canyoneer group and I assume until notified that they are OK for the Canyons group too.
-Bill
Tom Jones
I have some 8mm ice climbing retired type ropes that I have used for a lot of canyoneering. Stretchy, absorb water, prone to core shots – check. The pieces keep getting shorter and shorter, but I still use them for:
Canyons with one or just a few rappels, generally short.
Why? well, I would not take them for Imlay (20 raps) because they are too likely to get dinged up, then I would be stuck 10 raps from the end with a dinged up rope.
I do take them because they were free, they seem to work well, and I have them in a variety of lengths (or did, getting shorter) that could be matched to the canyon. Lightweight, especially when dry.
So yeah, what someone else said. Apply with discretion. Be smart.
Tom
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote:
This is not a shell game. I said, your retired half-ropes are the wrong tool for canyoneering.
They are “a” tool. Not right or wrong. Not optimal, but, not “wrong” per se.
Canyoneering is primarily rappelling. Folks who climb with half ropes…don’t take an extra set of ropes to rappel on. That’d be silly. These ropes work fine in the alpine climbing arena. My guess is the risk of rope damage might be higher in the mountains than in a smooth sandstone canyon, if the environment that the rope sees is the only factor.
Pilot error is a bigger issue. How’s that go? Ain’t the size of the tool but the man who uses it? Er something…
> Your public seal of approval on carrying something that is so easily moved outside it’s intended use in a canyon environment is irresponsible in my mind.
Canyon Pro better for the “general public”? I’ll bet a rappel is a bunch easier to control on an old fuzzy 9mm half rope than a slick 8mm Canyon Pro. Which has the higher probability of an accident? Losing control on a slippery 8mm Canyon Pro, or, whatever might happen to a fuzzy old ice climbing rope (sheath tear)? I’ll bet user data supports rappelling pilot error with a skinny static is a much higher probability of accident.
That said, beginner canyoneers who have never rappelled prior to learning to canyoneer would of course be better off using a 10mm static line. But, its not the static v dynamic as much as the rope diameter, IMHO.
Folks blow rappels way way way more than they cut a rope over an edge to the point of failure.
Experienced climbers (which is of itself pretty subjective) asking about whether an old half rope would be usable for canyoneering is different than the general public asking. If you’ve worn out a climbing rope, I’d hope you have the skills necessary to rappel by that time.
Way more “irresponsible” to hawk 8mm Canyon Pro as appropriate for “general public” use than an old, fuzzy ice climbing half rope that a climber is wondering about. Methinks.
Yada yada.
Brian in SLC Sometimes helmet-less user of ATC’s, Mammut 8mm slings and 9/16″ webbing for canyoneering.
neil wilkinson
LOL, that would be so you!
Hank Moon hmoon@petzl.com> wrote: I might develop a boilerplate “tech info disclaimer” to append to every tech post. Wouldn’t that be oh-so-Yanqui?
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Hank Moon
Paul, I know you. I’ve been to your awesome home. You can afford a new rope. Go out and buy some Canyon Pro and donate your old 1/2 ropes to some starving college kids who can’t afford to buy their own Canyon Pro.
**** But only if you’re a real “pro”…and don’t ever need to lead climb out of a canyon…and want to spend a ton of dough on an overrated rope! Ropes with “mixed” properties already exist, such as Beal Spelenium. Not sure how good it’d be for canyoneering.
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Hank Moon
So, this discussion really has nothing to do with the appropriateness of half ropes for canyoneering; rather, the question seems to be about the exercise of good judgment when making tech recommendations to the public. How much info is enough? Is the warning sufficient, etc. A simple “YMMV” not good enough? You may have a point. I might develop a boilerplate “tech info disclaimer” to append to every tech post. Wouldn’t that be oh-so-Yanqui?
As to half ropes being the “wrong” tool for canyoneering, that’s totally subjective. It is easy to imagine scenarios where half ropes would be a liability and others in which they could be an asset. That said, it’s safe to say that in most typical canyoneering situations, a purpose-built canyoneering rope is a better choice than a half rope.
hank
________________________________
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of neil wilkinson Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 9:09 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group; canyoneer@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] RE: [canyoneer] Re: any use for 1/2 ropes in canyoneering
I have to confess to only using dynamic half-ropes while climbing. I spent 8 hours and eight pitches tied to two of them Saturday. So, my canyoneering experience using these ropes is limited. I have however, seen them damage (core shot) by abuse most of my static lines would tend to shake off. If you have experienced people using them in the appropriate setting you will be able to slide down them just fine.
You are spot on about using them and understanding their limitations. My point had very little to do with canyoneering with half-ropes. I still think lending legitimacy to the use of such gear in public without the thoughtful warning you saw fit to include is irresponsible. While there are situations where they will serve you outside of climbing they are and will remain the ‘wrong’ tool for canyoneering. May I conclude that to save money I will stop buying static ropes and just move to using my old 8.5mm lead ropes? Is this a practice we should endorse?
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neil wilkinson
Bill,
This is not a shell game. I said, your retired half-ropes are the wrong tool for canyoneering.
You said, “Stretchy yes, but I think the “wrong tool” is rather strong. Hey, don’t get me wrong, personally I hope you convince Paul that they are the “wrong tool” and I will have yet another set of ropes to use, ahem, “test”. Paul, listen to Neil, I need more ropes for free.”
So they stretch, big deal, set them up with care which you should be doing anyway unless you want to ruin ropes. So they won’t last, well, they’re retired climbing ropes and any extra life you get out of them is a bonus. … A static rope would be the “wrong tool” to use for climbing and leader falls, a dynamic rope is just less preferable for canyoneering.”
So, you don’t think half-ropes are not the ‘wrong’ tool, well, are they wrong or right? It’s hard to distort your position, Bill.
You clearly implied, if you don’t want ’em send ’em to me, I’ll use them. It is very clear to me that you think retired half-ropes are fine to canyoneer with as long as you are ‘careful’!? Being able to get yourself out of what you get your self into and going home is priority #1. Your public seal of approval on carrying something that is so easily moved outside it’s intended use in a canyon environment is irresponsible in my mind. Canyoneer with your old half-ropes fine, if it all turns to sh** that day remember what Shane said in his first post, ‘don’t blame me!’.
Neil
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Rich Carlson
The perfect rope for canyoneering has yet to be invented. It should be static on demand for the majority of canyoneering activities — rappelling, ascending, and an occasional haul system. But also dynamic on demand for those occasions when lead climbing might be necessary or when shock loading marginal anchors should be minimized.
Given the fact that we have to choose between static and dynamic, static is the better choice for canyoneering. Of course dynamic will work, but it is not ideal. It is definitely more prone to abrasion while rappelling.
Paul, I know you. I’ve been to your awesome home. You can afford a new rope. Go out and buy some Canyon Pro and donate your old 1/2 ropes to some starving college kids who can’t afford to buy their own Canyon Pro.
neil wilkinson
I have to confess to only using dynamic half-ropes while climbing. I spent 8 hours and eight pitches tied to two of them Saturday. So, my canyoneering experience using these ropes is limited. I have however, seen them damage (core shot) by abuse most of my static lines would tend to shake off. If you have experienced people using them in the appropriate setting you will be able to slide down them just fine.
You are spot on about using them and understanding their limitations. My point had very little to do with canyoneering with half-ropes. I still think lending legitimacy to the use of such gear in public without the thoughtful warning you saw fit to include is irresponsible. While there are situations where they will serve you outside of climbing they are and will remain the ‘wrong’ tool for canyoneering. May I conclude that to save money I will stop buying static ropes and just move to using my old 8.5mm lead ropes? Is this a practice we should endorse?
Neil
Hank Moon hmoon@petzl.com> wrote:
Neil, how much experience do you have using dynamic half ropes in canyons? I’ve used ’em quite a bit and there is really no problem PROVIDED you know the limitations of the rope. It’s like any other piece of gear – really. How many folks use 9/16″ webbing in canyons? Is that OK, or is 1″ tube the minimum standard? How about natural anchors? Tied webbing harnesses? Bicyle helmets? No-one is saying that half ropes perform as well as purpose-built canyoneering rope in all situations. That would be absurd. But…equally absurd would be to claim the converse. You have been a big proponent of Canyon Pro in the past. Does that work for every contingency? What if you were forced to escape a canyon using lead climbing techniques? Want the sharp end of a Canyon Pro? 😉
hank
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W.B.
On May 8, 2005, at 9:14 PM, Neil wrote:
> You kill me Bill. You heard it here first from the pros @ > ecanyoneer. Old climbing 1/2 ropes are the RIGHT tool for > canyoneering. Okay, I give up, enjoy.
Neil
No need for anyone to die Neil. Did someone say half ropes were the right tool for canyoneering? Who? Language matters. Kindly do not distort what I say and impute that I said it.
If you have a specific dispute with something I said regarding this kindly raise the issue and I will discuss or correct it, but I would appreciate if you do not distort my statements and then imply I said something I never did.
You said dynamic ropes are the wrong tool, I disagreed and said that’s not like using static ropes for lead climbing, that would be the wrong tool, dynamic ropes are just less preferred for canyoneering. I further qualified the statement by saying that it would be unwise to purchase (dynamic) half ropes for canyoneering and warned about the specific disadvantages associated with using these retired climbing ropes. I further warned about my recommendations only applying to single-person rappel loads. On the Canyons list you raised the issue of constructing a haul system. This falls outside of the recommendations I made and to use your half rope in this way would be something I specifically warned against. I am not responsible if you or others do not understand the plain meaning of what I say here. You cannot get out of that that I recommend dynamic ropes as the right tool for canyoneering unless you simply persist in misunderstanding the words I wrote.
Do you disagree with what I actually said? You are free to disagree with my statement and offer your opinion, reasoned or not but please do not distort my argument and imply I said something I did not.
-Bill