I hope all on Canyons and the Bog will indulge me posting this on the new canyoneering Association board of American Canyoneers and linking all to it. I think it is an interesting post and posting it there this time honors a dozen folks who are working hard toward Access, Conservation, education and safety goals for all.; Please feel free to cross post content from the established boards over on american Canyoneers too. It is not ibn competion with the blogs and belongs to us all
here is a photo collection of the application of the Auganchor
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WatertrapAnchorApplied?authkey=Gv1sRgCN_67-GPlraAyAE
Then a demo
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterBagVideo#5477484498946189938
What the spot looked like in lower water 5 months earlier. This picture and the next 7 https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/Rhapsody42412#5737372194377659874
Jenny the inventor of the Auganchor and her visual how to build one, picture book http://www.flickr.com/photos/carverat297/sets/72157628062414488/
aj.outdoors
For the rap and pull line protection, I’ve used a piece of cloth or a piece of nylon with a cord tied through a grommet. I use a small biner on the cord, attached in place with a clove hitch. This way, you can wrap the cord around the pull cord (rarely, but sometimes the rope) and the biner a couple times and it becomes very similar to a Bachmann knot, but the piece of fabric is suspended in place, and can protect the rope and pull cord on a rappel.
The person rappelling just needs to make sure they put the rope on the protective cloth / nylon when they rap past it.
You can do it on the main line, but then each person needs to move / remove it; and the last person has to bring it down with him. It’s easier if you just put it on the pull cord side, as then when you pull the line, it comes down with the line…
Hope that helps, A.J.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan wrote:
Yup that’s about all I could think of. Placing a hose or webbing on a standard pull likely wouldn’t work so well.
Go Smooth. > Luke
Sent from my phone
rickinlo wrote:
>Okay, so this is specific to retrievable anchors right?
Any ideas on how it could be done with a typical anchor, say an inconveniently placed tree or set of bolts you wanted to rappel off of?
I suppose you could just go ahead and use a fiddle stick off of something like that, and then avoid making the rope grooves… Probably the easy answer.
>
Luke Galyan
Yup that’s about all I could think of. Placing a hose or webbing on a standard pull likely wouldn’t work so well.
Go Smooth. Luke
Sent from my phone
rickinlo rickinlo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Okay, so this is specific to retrievable anchors right?
Any ideas on how it could be done with a typical anchor, say an inconveniently placed tree or set of bolts you wanted to rappel off of?
I suppose you could just go ahead and use a fiddle stick off of something like that, and then avoid making the rope grooves… Probably the easy answer. >
RAM
It can and is used on the rap line when applicable. People just slide it up toward the anchor, get on rap, bring hose along with guide hand and place it as you go over the lip. Yes the fiddlestick is wonderful for preventing rope grooves and can be used on established anchors. Eliminating pulling rope through rings on edges?? Yup, good stuff!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
Okay, so this is specific to retrievable anchors right?
Any ideas on how it could be done with a typical anchor, say an inconveniently placed tree or set of bolts you wanted to rappel off of?
I suppose you could just go ahead and use a fiddle stick off of something like that, and then avoid making the rope grooves… Probably the easy answer. >
rickinlo
Okay, so this is specific to retrievable anchors right?
Any ideas on how it could be done with a typical anchor, say an inconveniently placed tree or set of bolts you wanted to rappel off of?
I suppose you could just go ahead and use a fiddle stick off of something like that, and then avoid making the rope grooves… Probably the easy answer.
RAM
Having some difficulty finding the ideal picture. In this one you see the rap line deployed and the pull line, complete with the hose ready for the lip placement when the last person starts off. When the pull starts, the hose will be on the lip and the pull rope will slide thru the hose and then presto…over the lip the whole thing goes. What really helps make it work is that most, lets say 50 foot raps, have to pull over 50 feet over the lip. With the retrievable aspect here, only a very limited number of feet of rope need to go over the edge and is protected by the hose. I doubt the hose would stay for any length of rope pulling, say 20 feet, but works fine for these short distances
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/MerryMurrayMenAndAssociates?authkey=Gv1sRgCN-pxLe2ruOuKA#5655960255397601634
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Jenny” wrote:
> Hi Rick, > I could try to ‘splain it to you. However, a photo is worth a thousand words (a million in Jenny Speak). Ram? Tom? Do you have photos of the system?
On a different note; thanks for all the good work you are doing out there, Rick. > Jenny > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
Jenny,
Can you explain your system for using the hose to protect against rope grooves to me? I’ve been trying to think this through, and I can only come up with systems that protect your rope against edges, but pretty much come off the rock as soon as you start your pull. Do you have a way to leave the hose against the rock until the rope is essentially through the anchor?
-Rick
>
Luke Galyan
Rick the rap rope stays with the trap as it is pulled. The rap rope isn’t really the rope groove culprit. The grooves are caused from the pull cord.
The system I use is to attach a pull line permanently to the sandtrap with a loop tied at the end. Over the pull line I have thread two peices of webbing about 2 feet long each. So the pull line is threaded through the two peices of webbing. I find this packs a lot easier than a hose and just stays on the trap set up rather it is needed or not.
When the trap is set you can slide the webbing to where rope grooving is an issue. I use two peices incase there is more than one spot that will be an issue. When the pull line is pulled it slides through the webbing so it isn’t grooving the rock. Unlike the hose the webbing just bunches up if the trap is pulled into it.
Fyi if you are worried about the spots where things might get hung up on the pull, it is a good idea to pull the rap line at the same time as the pull line to keep it clean. When pulling the rap line you are NOT trying to pull the trap, the pull cord does ALL the work. What you are aiming to do is keep slack out of the rap line so it doesn’t fall into things it shouldn’t. Ask Jenny how I know this.
Hope that helps. Luke
Sent from my phone
rickinlo rickinlo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jenny,
Can you explain your system for using the hose to protect against rope grooves to me? I’ve been trying to think this through, and I can only come up with systems that protect your rope against edges, but pretty much come off the rock as soon as you start your pull. Do you have a way to leave the hose against the rock until the rope is essentially through the anchor?
-Rick >
Jenny
Hi Rick, I could try to ‘splain it to you. However, a photo is worth a thousand words (a million in Jenny Speak). Ram? Tom? Do you have photos of the system?
On a different note; thanks for all the good work you are doing out there, Rick. Jenny — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
Jenny,
Can you explain your system for using the hose to protect against rope grooves to me? I’ve been trying to think this through, and I can only come up with systems that protect your rope against edges, but pretty much come off the rock as soon as you start your pull. Do you have a way to leave the hose against the rock until the rope is essentially through the anchor?
-Rick >
rickinlo
Jenny,
Can you explain your system for using the hose to protect against rope grooves to me? I’ve been trying to think this through, and I can only come up with systems that protect your rope against edges, but pretty much come off the rock as soon as you start your pull. Do you have a way to leave the hose against the rock until the rope is essentially through the anchor?
-Rick
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
> We normally carry both the sandtrap and the aguanchor in one potshot. Fits inside quite nicely and packs. For kicks, I added the fiddlestick to the package and weighed it. Including the rapides attached to the anchors that make it “ready for use,” it came in at about 3 lb 6 ozs. for everything including the potshot.>>
In addition to the Ghosting Tool Kit that Ram describes above, the potshot often contains a 10-15′ length of rope that is treaded inside a length of garden hose with attached carabiner. This is to protect the rock from grooves. When I remember, I also tuck in a swath of rawhide as groove protection for those awkward starts where the hose isn’t practical.
This anchor package is often my first choice to grab from the pile of group gear. (And, I’m a weakling, ol’, mere girl, that is very weight conscious!) So, it can’t be TOO heavy, right?
RAM
I have heard some say that the use of sandtraps, aguanchors and fiddlestix are heavy and cumbersome solutions to rappelling. That they would never carry all that extra weight. While the folks that said these things have never seen these tools, let alone used one, it did get me thinking about the weight and size.
We don’t take these anchors everywhere. Well maybe the Fiddlestix. It doesn’t play in certain areas that well and is weight that can be saved in trade routes. It is invaluable on explorations in Escalante, Glen Canyon and some other places and in any of the many places bolts are now illegal. I sleep so much better than before, tackling the unknown. Not sure how we had the nerve to drop some of these canyons before we had these tools.
We normally carry both the sandtrap and the aguanchor in one potshot. Fits inside quite nicely and packs. For kicks, I added the fiddlestick to the package and weighed it. Including the rapides attached to the anchors that make it “ready for use,” it came in at about 3 lb 6 ozs. for everything including the potshot.
I grabbed other gear to see what weighs about the same. A 110 foot, 9mm rope WITHOUT the rope bag is comparable. And the anchor package packs much smaller than the rope. It is hardly the cumbersome deal some skeptics have speculated it to be.
Both Shane and Cabe have said the watertrap is sure to kill someone. This is unlikely as there is only a hand full of them in use and there are no plans for any more to be made. The sharing of the devise was about “sharing the possible”, not proposing it become standard. If it were to spark ideas among innovators, then other methods will be developed. Throw the seeds and see what happens.
Great credit is due Jenny West for conceiving the idea, then designing the devise, then building half a dozen of them, testing the various one’s she designed and built, modifying them, then field testing them in a safe fashion. Kudos. A fully functional and visionary prototype that was clearly the best option on several occasions.
There were a major rainstorm in both the middle of September and one in the middle of October this fall. The aguanchor got most of it use after these storms, when so many anchor options were under water. This is a valid niche for the tool. I am less nervous about canyoneering after storms now.
Finally a short tale. On a canyon out on the Glen, that we made a first modern descent on, the next to last rap, is a 25 foot overhanging Drop. We fiddlesticked a log the first time. The 2nd time we went, the log had been washed away, but a sandtrap had perfect geometry. The 3rd time we visited the place was after the October storm and this spot was 3 feet deep in water. You know what we did.
The same spot, three different trips, three different solutions, due to changing conditions. These systems have been called clunky and heavy handed. Yet nothing was left. No rocks were farmed, stacked or buried. The sand and water used stayed pretty much where is was gotten, at the top of the anchor. Pretty nifty if you ask me.
While caution is advised during the “learning curve” with these tools, it is unquestioned by those who have SEEN these tools in use, that it is very real steps taken to the “leave no trace” ethic. Ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
here is a photo collection of the application of the Aguanchor
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WatertrapAnchorApplied?authkey=Gv1sRgCN_67-GPlraAyAE Then a demo
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterBagVideo#5477484498946189938 What the spot looked like in lower water 5 months earlier. This picture and the next 7 > https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/Rhapsody42412#5737372194377659874 Jenny the inventor of the Auganchor and her visual how to build one, picture book > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carverat297/sets/72157628062414488/
TomJones
to emphasize…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Jenny” wrote:
> – there appear to be ties in order to solidly connect the Aquanchor and the Trap – is this to help ensure the release pulls cleanly and the pull/empty mechanism is reliable?
Yes, the ties serve to secure the water bladder/Aguanchor within the Sandtrap for protection of the fabric as well as to support the complete evacuation of water. >
Without being secured INSIDE the protective fabric, the Aquanchor is in grave danger of getting holes during the retrieval. In some canyons, the Aquanchor will need to be used several times – compromising its water-holding capacity on the first drop could be bad news.
Of course, even theoretically “inside” the trap, you are still yanking it down a drop, and it can still get messed up. YMMV. Caution advised, as well as a backup Aquanchor and backup SandTrap.
Tom
Jenny
John, I will attempt to answer you questions.
> – there appear to be ties in order to solidly connect the Aquanchor and the Trap – is this to help ensure the release pulls cleanly and the pull/empty mechanism is reliable?
Yes, the ties serve to secure the water bladder/Aguanchor within the Sandtrap for protection of the fabric as well as to support the complete evacuation of water.
> – does the pvc release mechanism allow any leakage? Is there a safety of any kind? How much of a tug does it take to release? Any risk of pre-release?
The pvc release wraps around a fold. It would leak, and in fact pop off EXCEPT for the rib of plastic tube that is sewn in. This seals/locks the fold within the pvc pipe. Care must be made to ensure that the sleeve is pushed far enough to fully enclose the fold. It is very easy to pull the sleeve. In fact, there is the risk, care is needed to avoid tangling with the pull cord during rappel. “You go last, very dangerous”.
> – Does the bladder almost fully empty on pull?
Yes, it is rigged such that the sleeve slides off and the same time that occurs, a cord sewn on the opposite corner lifts and empties the rest of the bladder. Then the Sandtrap retrieval system is initiated to bring all elements down.
Last, I couldn’t find anything about this on the AC site. I also couldn’t find the forum that used to exist. Under construction? Help…
Ram, had a link to the old AC forum. The AC website is being upgraded to a new format: americancanyoneers.org He posted on the old site, thus the confusion. Sorry. Ram is working with the webmasters tomorrow to repost.
Thanks for your inquiry, John. Jenny
-john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener” wrote:
Thanks Ram and Jenny! I looked through most of the links below: very detailed on the construction, although I may need a couple more read-throughs to understand thoroughly. A few questions: > – there appear to be ties in order to solidly connect the Aquanchor and the Trap – is this to help ensure the release pulls cleanly and the pull/empty mechanism is reliable? > – does the pvc release mechanism allow any leakage? Is there a safety of any kind? How much of a tug does it take to release? Any risk of pre-release? > – Does the bladder almost fully empty on pull?
Last, I couldn’t find anything about this on the AC site. I also couldn’t find the forum that used to exist. Under construction? Help…
-john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I hope all on Canyons and the Bog will indulge me posting this on the new canyoneering Association board of American Canyoneers and linking all to it. I think it is an interesting post and posting it there this time honors a dozen folks who are working hard toward Access, Conservation, education and safety goals for all.; Please feel free to cross post content from the established boards over on american Canyoneers too. It is not ibn competion with the blogs and belongs to us all
here is a photo collection of the application of the Auganchor
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WatertrapAnchorApplied?authkey=Gv1sRgCN_67-GPlraAyAE Then a demo
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterBagVideo#5477484498946189938 What the spot looked like in lower water 5 months earlier. This picture and the next 7
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/Rhapsody42412#5737372194377659874 Jenny the inventor of the Auganchor and her visual how to build one, picture book
http://www.flickr.com/photos/carverat297/sets/72157628062414488/
jddiener
Thanks Ram and Jenny! I looked through most of the links below: very detailed on the construction, although I may need a couple more read-throughs to understand thoroughly. A few questions: – there appear to be ties in order to solidly connect the Aquanchor and the Trap – is this to help ensure the release pulls cleanly and the pull/empty mechanism is reliable? – does the pvc release mechanism allow any leakage? Is there a safety of any kind? How much of a tug does it take to release? Any risk of pre-release? – Does the bladder almost fully empty on pull?
Last, I couldn’t find anything about this on the AC site. I also couldn’t find the forum that used to exist. Under construction? Help…
-john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I hope all on Canyons and the Bog will indulge me posting this on the new canyoneering Association board of American Canyoneers and linking all to it. I think it is an interesting post and posting it there this time honors a dozen folks who are working hard toward Access, Conservation, education and safety goals for all.; Please feel free to cross post content from the established boards over on american Canyoneers too. It is not ibn competion with the blogs and belongs to us all
here is a photo collection of the application of the Auganchor
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WatertrapAnchorApplied?authkey=Gv1sRgCN_67-GPlraAyAE Then a demo
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterBagVideo#5477484498946189938 What the spot looked like in lower water 5 months earlier. This picture and the next 7 > https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/Rhapsody42412#5737372194377659874 Jenny the inventor of the Auganchor and her visual how to build one, picture book > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carverat297/sets/72157628062414488/
TomJones
The Aquanchor is used INSIDE the SandTrap (creating a Water Trap), but no sand is used. The Ka-thud is from the wet SandTrap hitting the deck, sometimes with some water left in the Aquanchor.
In conditions where there is a lot of water, there may or may not be sand available, and if there is sand it will be wet. Wet sand cleans less-easily from the SandTrap. In these conditions, using the Aquanchor is generally a faster/easier/safer option.
Also, in these conditions, a Sand-based SandTrap would have to be placed in the same location, but if it drops into the water, sand will be lost and the security of the system highly compromised. If the Aquanchor drops down into the water, anchorage will be lost, but immediately restored as soon as the Aquanchor is pulled back up out of the water.
A few cautions about the Aquanchor: Sand is 2 to 2.5 times denser than water. If you are used to using a SandTrap, then in the same geometry, you will need 2x to 2.5x more water. This is a lot of water. Working the calculations through, the real conclusion to reach is that the WaterTrap requires pretty good geometry – better geometry than the SandTrap. In all the placements shown, the trap is deep in a pothole with steep sides. It may be a good idea to have a 3rd cord to hold the trap in place (from the bottom) on this kind of a placement.
Thank you Ram and Jenny for putting out a thorough how-to on the Aquanchor. Many people have been asking, but I do not have a “product” version of the Aquanchor to offer people at this time. Might have one in the spring, then again, might not.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Nice work, both instructional and entertaining.
As I progressed through the slot pics the combination of still and video helped answer many questions. However, I do have a question about what appeared to be the use of the sand anchor with the aqua anchor. Is this the recommended pairing, i.e. they work best in combo? I’m assuming the ka-thud at the end of the 100′ pull was the sand bag.
Also, reviewed each and every one of Jenny’s step-by-step picbook of the Aquanchor. I found myself reminiscing back to calculus days, a long long time ago; I saw every step but don’t think I’m skilled enough to duplicate it…yet.
Thanks for sharing it though.
-k
kuenn_k2
Nice work, both instructional and entertaining.
As I progressed through the slot pics the combination of still and video helped answer many questions. However, I do have a question about what appeared to be the use of the sand anchor with the aqua anchor. Is this the recommended pairing, i.e. they work best in combo? I’m assuming the ka-thud at the end of the 100′ pull was the sand bag.
Also, reviewed each and every one of Jenny’s step-by-step picbook of the Aquanchor. I found myself reminiscing back to calculus days, a long long time ago; I saw every step but don’t think I’m skilled enough to duplicate it…yet.
Thanks for sharing it though.
-k
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I hope all on Canyons and the Bog will indulge me posting this on the new canyoneering Association board of American Canyoneers and linking all to it. I think it is an interesting post and posting it there this time honors a dozen folks who are working hard toward Access, Conservation, education and safety goals for all.; Please feel free to cross post content from the established boards over on american Canyoneers too. It is not ibn competion with the blogs and belongs to us all
here is a photo collection of the application of the Auganchor
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WatertrapAnchorApplied?authkey=Gv1sRgCN_67-GPlraAyAE Then a demo
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterBagVideo#5477484498946189938 What the spot looked like in lower water 5 months earlier. This picture and the next 7 > https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/Rhapsody42412#5737372194377659874 Jenny the inventor of the Auganchor and her visual how to build one, picture book > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carverat297/sets/72157628062414488/