Thanks for the input. I was trying to think of a quick, easy way to prevent rope grooves. And yeah, fiddlesticks. Duh right?
So it’s official. Fiddle sticks and macrame knots are a necessary technique for doing sandstone canyons. We should get Zion to put it on the notes for everyone doing Spry Canyon.
Or, maybe that’s a terrible idea. I doubt Zion SAR would appreciate it.
RAM
Ram didn’t forget this one. I was speculating about accidents in the future. As we all know, accidents have happened in all kinds of ways in the past. Failed anchors of all different kinds, human error on rappel, failure to control rappel speed, falls, failed captures. Which reminds me, how is the fellow who broke his 4 “transverse process” bones, off the vertebrae? Is he up and around? Planning to get back out again?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rick” wrote:
wondered how ram managed to forget that one. we were all lucky it didn’t blow out when he was 60-100 more feet up. > the answer is a clear affirmative.
rick
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Actually, the “Aquanchor” is Jenny’s version. I was using my “ghetto” version, which was more crudely engineered.
So no. although, yeah, kinda sorta.
T
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
Wasn’t Tom’s broken wrist from an Aqua anchor failure?
Isolated, sure; but still counts…
As for the accidents/deaths, depends on how widely used things become. Statistically speaking, the more folks that use it, the higher the probability something bad will happen. That said, I totally agree. Let folks get solid on the basic skills, and then advance to Fiddlestix/Smooth Operator, Potshots, Sandtrap and Aqua-Anchor.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Agreed. I doubt there will be injury or death from Agua and sand anchors, but think it likely with the Fiddlestick, in the same fashion there has been injuries with the biner block and people going off the wrong side. These techniques have advantages, but WILL lead to injury and death if used improperly. Experience AND vigilance required. Not for everyone. Be careful out there.
R
RAM
While the failure was with different water anchor, yes it counts, even, maybe especilly because it was user error. I was mostly referring to future when speculating where accidents may happen. The aguanchor is just not out there. There just aren’t many being used.
The sandtrap, if used correctly, with the proper testing and back up methods in place, is pretty safe. You test it, with back up, until the last person goes off with confidence. Now if people are out there doing this trap with 2 people or get failures (under back up) with the next to last person, then it gets dicey, but that should not happen, with attentiveness and experience.
The fiddlestick, on the other hand, seems to be getting used by lots of people. It is a pretty easy and handy anchor. It massively helps prevent grooving, but I see its frequent use leading to accidents potentially. Used right, it is safe, but people make mistakes. I think accidents may happen with a little less frequency that the biner block accidents seen over the last few years. How many has there been? three or so and all serious? be careful out there.
BTW we used the sandtrap on an exploration last week (no pictures or story Luke) on about 3 anchors. It was a cold day! And the canyon proved to be wet. We were quite chilled. Of all the anchor possibilities, sand trapping was clearly the fastest. It got chosen because it was safe, but ESPECIALLY because it was fast. Hauling rocks, cairns, deadmen, illegal drilling all would have taken vastly more time. The speed of deploying the trap has factored in quite often, even when we are not cold. Impacts? A tiny bit of sand moves down one drop (most spills out where it is) and nothing is left.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
Wasn’t Tom’s broken wrist from an Aqua anchor failure?
Isolated, sure; but still counts…
As for the accidents/deaths, depends on how widely used things become. Statistically speaking, the more folks that use it, the higher the probability something bad will happen. That said, I totally agree. Let folks get solid on the basic skills, and then advance to Fiddlestix/Smooth Operator, Potshots, Sandtrap and Aqua-Anchor.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Agreed. I doubt there will be injury or death from Agua and sand anchors, but think it likely with the Fiddlestick, in the same fashion there has been injuries with the biner block and people going off the wrong side. These techniques have advantages, but WILL lead to injury and death if used improperly. Experience AND vigilance required. Not for everyone. Be careful out there.
R >
Luke
LOVE GORILLA TAPE!
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of titanstairs Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 6:01 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Aquanchor- -> (protecting against rope grooves)
I’ve switched my duct tape out for gorilla tape. We even fixed a blown radiator hose with it and it held with the heat, water and temperatures
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “aj.outdoors” wrote:
Thanks Jenny!
Our plans are to use a midweight fabric, a gore-tex material (we bought enough fabric for one) and a heavier weight cordura material, very similar to the material used to make the actual sandtrap. (we bought enough for two with that; as well as some extra for a few more rope protectors that hopefully don’t soak up as much water as my current ones.)
We will likely make a heavy cordura material water anchor first (Wanchor? ); work out any kinks, and see how we like it.
Thanks for the warnings on the thinner fabric. Glad we didn’t get any of that kind of material. I wanted it to be at least moderately durable; if not very durable.
Thanks for the thoughts on a patch kit too. My original thought on that was just to use the duct tape I always carry along with me in my emergency kit (that’s my band-aid, moleskin, repair, etc); until I can get home to do a better patch job. Will have to test that to see how it sticks (or doesn’t) on wet material…
Yeah, I think Tom knows I was just teasing. I have nothing but respect for many in this sport; including Tom and yourself. Anyone spending significant time outdoors has had plenty of near misses, and hopefully not too many serious incidents. I’ve been helicoptered off Mount Rainier (Kautz Ice Wall mountaineering route) with a badly broken leg; as well as had a (thankfully no injury) anchor failure this year. It happens…
Hopefully I, and others, have learned from their, and others, misses and incidents. That’s one of the (minor) reasons I’ve been involved with rescue groups; good learning potential – as well as why I continue to monitor different forums and websites. It’s also why I try to do at least one or two beginner friendly trips per year, so I can help others not make mistakes…
Take care, > A.J.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Jenny” wrote:
A.J.,
Actually there are a few alterations that I would suggest to the Aguanchor(s) as shown in the How-To photos. I failed to mention that I sampled three different fabrics in the construction of the 5 Aguanchors (Everything that Kirkhams, in SLC, sold). I gave Tom the lightest weight one, figuring that he would be the likely recipient to watch for leaks and make alterations. As it turned out, I have that version back in my possession as we discovered so many leaks that I wanted it out of the action. (I haven’t had a chance to see why the leaks. It was fine when I first tested it) Thus, I might suggest using the most durable, water-proof fabric that you can. In fact, I think that having a plastic welder match your pattern might be a great option.
We also discovered a pair of 1/4″ punctures in Ram’s trap, which gets used quite often. It was easily patched in the field. Suggestion: consider a patch kit coming along?
I mentioned elsewhere that the PVC 40-grade slider could be improved by upgrading the PVC pipe to the higher grade. We had one shatter upon retrieval (actually, it is the one shown if Ram’s video clip). Rigging the slider to stay within the protective barrier of the SandTrap would be a good idea, as well.
I saw a video on the making of canvass awnings recently. (Nope, no cooking or sewing TV for me.) They showed a split metal shaft with a roller system that might be the perfect replacement for the plastic. Oh, but then, there’s the cost of custom design, the weight, etc. But, keep your “eyes peeled” for ideas, eh?
For the record: I would say that Tom’s reputation is well in tact and a darned good one, eh? I know you are just teasing him and appreciate that he’s come up with so many wonderful products that make canyoneering safer and add comfort to the experience. As for my record? I have many “near misses” and a pretty good drop into a pothole recently. In fact, I had so many contributions to the call for accident reports for Steve Kugath’s study, that the odds were well in my favor and my name was the 3rd draw to win a great prize! I’ve a few tarnishes, for sure. I one has no scars, broken bones or “tarnishes”, they’re not running fast enough with sharp scissors in Life. (Or maybe they are just very lucky!)
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “aj.outdoors” wrote:
K. We’ll let the record state that only your record is tarnished, not Jenny’s…
I’ve wanted to see your Ghetto version. I’m working on my version, which was/is really close to Jenny’s idea. Have talked to Jenny over e-mail to see any refinements that she had thought of since (she really didn’t have any.)
>
titanstairs
I’ve switched my duct tape out for gorilla tape. We even fixed a blown radiator hose with it and it held with the heat, water and temperatures
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
Thanks Jenny!
Our plans are to use a midweight fabric, a gore-tex material (we bought enough fabric for one) and a heavier weight cordura material, very similar to the material used to make the actual sandtrap. (we bought enough for two with that; as well as some extra for a few more rope protectors that hopefully don’t soak up as much water as my current ones.)
We will likely make a heavy cordura material water anchor first (Wanchor? ); work out any kinks, and see how we like it.
Thanks for the warnings on the thinner fabric. Glad we didn’t get any of that kind of material. I wanted it to be at least moderately durable; if not very durable.
Thanks for the thoughts on a patch kit too. My original thought on that was just to use the duct tape I always carry along with me in my emergency kit (that’s my band-aid, moleskin, repair, etc); until I can get home to do a better patch job. Will have to test that to see how it sticks (or doesn’t) on wet material…
Yeah, I think Tom knows I was just teasing. I have nothing but respect for many in this sport; including Tom and yourself. Anyone spending significant time outdoors has had plenty of near misses, and hopefully not too many serious incidents. I’ve been helicoptered off Mount Rainier (Kautz Ice Wall mountaineering route) with a badly broken leg; as well as had a (thankfully no injury) anchor failure this year. It happens…
Hopefully I, and others, have learned from their, and others, misses and incidents. That’s one of the (minor) reasons I’ve been involved with rescue groups; good learning potential – as well as why I continue to monitor different forums and websites. It’s also why I try to do at least one or two beginner friendly trips per year, so I can help others not make mistakes…
Take care, > A.J.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Jenny” wrote:
A.J.,
Actually there are a few alterations that I would suggest to the Aguanchor(s) as shown in the How-To photos. I failed to mention that I sampled three different fabrics in the construction of the 5 Aguanchors (Everything that Kirkhams, in SLC, sold). I gave Tom the lightest weight one, figuring that he would be the likely recipient to watch for leaks and make alterations. As it turned out, I have that version back in my possession as we discovered so many leaks that I wanted it out of the action. (I haven’t had a chance to see why the leaks. It was fine when I first tested it) Thus, I might suggest using the most durable, water-proof fabric that you can. In fact, I think that having a plastic welder match your pattern might be a great option.
We also discovered a pair of 1/4″ punctures in Ram’s trap, which gets used quite often. It was easily patched in the field. Suggestion: consider a patch kit coming along?
I mentioned elsewhere that the PVC 40-grade slider could be improved by upgrading the PVC pipe to the higher grade. We had one shatter upon retrieval (actually, it is the one shown if Ram’s video clip). Rigging the slider to stay within the protective barrier of the SandTrap would be a good idea, as well.
I saw a video on the making of canvass awnings recently. (Nope, no cooking or sewing TV for me.) They showed a split metal shaft with a roller system that might be the perfect replacement for the plastic. Oh, but then, there’s the cost of custom design, the weight, etc. But, keep your “eyes peeled” for ideas, eh?
For the record: I would say that Tom’s reputation is well in tact and a darned good one, eh? I know you are just teasing him and appreciate that he’s come up with so many wonderful products that make canyoneering safer and add comfort to the experience. As for my record? I have many “near misses” and a pretty good drop into a pothole recently. In fact, I had so many contributions to the call for accident reports for Steve Kugath’s study, that the odds were well in my favor and my name was the 3rd draw to win a great prize! I’ve a few tarnishes, for sure. I one has no scars, broken bones or “tarnishes”, they’re not running fast enough with sharp scissors in Life. (Or maybe they are just very lucky!)
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
K. We’ll let the record state that only your record is tarnished, not Jenny’s…
I’ve wanted to see your Ghetto version. I’m working on my version, which was/is really close to Jenny’s idea. Have talked to Jenny over e-mail to see any refinements that she had thought of since (she really didn’t have any.)
>
aj.outdoors
Thanks Jenny!
Our plans are to use a midweight fabric, a gore-tex material (we bought enough fabric for one) and a heavier weight cordura material, very similar to the material used to make the actual sandtrap. (we bought enough for two with that; as well as some extra for a few more rope protectors that hopefully don’t soak up as much water as my current ones.)
We will likely make a heavy cordura material water anchor first (Wanchor? ); work out any kinks, and see how we like it.
Thanks for the warnings on the thinner fabric. Glad we didn’t get any of that kind of material. I wanted it to be at least moderately durable; if not very durable.
Thanks for the thoughts on a patch kit too. My original thought on that was just to use the duct tape I always carry along with me in my emergency kit (that’s my band-aid, moleskin, repair, etc); until I can get home to do a better patch job. Will have to test that to see how it sticks (or doesn’t) on wet material…
Yeah, I think Tom knows I was just teasing. I have nothing but respect for many in this sport; including Tom and yourself. Anyone spending significant time outdoors has had plenty of near misses, and hopefully not too many serious incidents. I’ve been helicoptered off Mount Rainier (Kautz Ice Wall mountaineering route) with a badly broken leg; as well as had a (thankfully no injury) anchor failure this year. It happens…
Hopefully I, and others, have learned from their, and others, misses and incidents. That’s one of the (minor) reasons I’ve been involved with rescue groups; good learning potential – as well as why I continue to monitor different forums and websites. It’s also why I try to do at least one or two beginner friendly trips per year, so I can help others not make mistakes…
Take care, A.J.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Jenny” wrote:
> A.J.,
Actually there are a few alterations that I would suggest to the Aguanchor(s) as shown in the How-To photos. I failed to mention that I sampled three different fabrics in the construction of the 5 Aguanchors (Everything that Kirkhams, in SLC, sold). I gave Tom the lightest weight one, figuring that he would be the likely recipient to watch for leaks and make alterations. As it turned out, I have that version back in my possession as we discovered so many leaks that I wanted it out of the action. (I haven’t had a chance to see why the leaks. It was fine when I first tested it) Thus, I might suggest using the most durable, water-proof fabric that you can. In fact, I think that having a plastic welder match your pattern might be a great option.
We also discovered a pair of 1/4″ punctures in Ram’s trap, which gets used quite often. It was easily patched in the field. Suggestion: consider a patch kit coming along?
I mentioned elsewhere that the PVC 40-grade slider could be improved by upgrading the PVC pipe to the higher grade. We had one shatter upon retrieval (actually, it is the one shown if Ram’s video clip). Rigging the slider to stay within the protective barrier of the SandTrap would be a good idea, as well.
I saw a video on the making of canvass awnings recently. (Nope, no cooking or sewing TV for me.) They showed a split metal shaft with a roller system that might be the perfect replacement for the plastic. Oh, but then, there’s the cost of custom design, the weight, etc. But, keep your “eyes peeled” for ideas, eh?
For the record: I would say that Tom’s reputation is well in tact and a darned good one, eh? I know you are just teasing him and appreciate that he’s come up with so many wonderful products that make canyoneering safer and add comfort to the experience. As for my record? I have many “near misses” and a pretty good drop into a pothole recently. In fact, I had so many contributions to the call for accident reports for Steve Kugath’s study, that the odds were well in my favor and my name was the 3rd draw to win a great prize! I’ve a few tarnishes, for sure. I one has no scars, broken bones or “tarnishes”, they’re not running fast enough with sharp scissors in Life. (Or maybe they are just very lucky!)
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
K. We’ll let the record state that only your record is tarnished, not Jenny’s…
I’ve wanted to see your Ghetto version. I’m working on my version, which was/is really close to Jenny’s idea. Have talked to Jenny over e-mail to see any refinements that she had thought of since (she really didn’t have any.) >
Jenny
A.J.,
Actually there are a few alterations that I would suggest to the Aguanchor(s) as shown in the How-To photos. I failed to mention that I sampled three different fabrics in the construction of the 5 Aguanchors (Everything that Kirkhams, in SLC, sold). I gave Tom the lightest weight one, figuring that he would be the likely recipient to watch for leaks and make alterations. As it turned out, I have that version back in my possession as we discovered so many leaks that I wanted it out of the action. (I haven’t had a chance to see why the leaks. It was fine when I first tested it) Thus, I might suggest using the most durable, water-proof fabric that you can. In fact, I think that having a plastic welder match your pattern might be a great option.
We also discovered a pair of 1/4″ punctures in Ram’s trap, which gets used quite often. It was easily patched in the field. Suggestion: consider a patch kit coming along?
I mentioned elsewhere that the PVC 40-grade slider could be improved by upgrading the PVC pipe to the higher grade. We had one shatter upon retrieval (actually, it is the one shown if Ram’s video clip). Rigging the slider to stay within the protective barrier of the SandTrap would be a good idea, as well.
I saw a video on the making of canvass awnings recently. (Nope, no cooking or sewing TV for me.) They showed a split metal shaft with a roller system that might be the perfect replacement for the plastic. Oh, but then, there’s the cost of custom design, the weight, etc. But, keep your “eyes peeled” for ideas, eh?
For the record: I would say that Tom’s reputation is well in tact and a darned good one, eh? I know you are just teasing him and appreciate that he’s come up with so many wonderful products that make canyoneering safer and add comfort to the experience. As for my record? I have many “near misses” and a pretty good drop into a pothole recently. In fact, I had so many contributions to the call for accident reports for Steve Kugath’s study, that the odds were well in my favor and my name was the 3rd draw to win a great prize! I’ve a few tarnishes, for sure. I one has no scars, broken bones or “tarnishes”, they’re not running fast enough with sharp scissors in Life. (Or maybe they are just very lucky!)
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
K. We’ll let the record state that only your record is tarnished, not Jenny’s…
I’ve wanted to see your Ghetto version. I’m working on my version, which was/is really close to Jenny’s idea. Have talked to Jenny over e-mail to see any refinements that she had thought of since (she really didn’t have any.)
aj.outdoors
K. We’ll let the record state that only your record is tarnished, not Jenny’s…
I’ve wanted to see your Ghetto version. I’m working on my version, which was/is really close to Jenny’s idea. Have talked to Jenny over e-mail to see any refinements that she had thought of since (she really didn’t have any.) (Many times, there are learning experiences gleaned afterwards from use.) This is an open invitation for any of the original folks that got Jenny’s prototypes, to share any info gleaned if they would like to. (i.e. if you could change something, what would it be? Feel free to keep it here, or e-mail me sideband at ajmail2011(at)gmail.com.
Take care, A.J.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Actually, the “Aquanchor” is Jenny’s version. I was using my “ghetto” version, which was more crudely engineered.
So no. although, yeah, kinda sorta.
T
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
Wasn’t Tom’s broken wrist from an Aqua anchor failure?
Isolated, sure; but still counts…
As for the accidents/deaths, depends on how widely used things become. Statistically speaking, the more folks that use it, the higher the probability something bad will happen. That said, I totally agree. Let folks get solid on the basic skills, and then advance to Fiddlestix/Smooth Operator, Potshots, Sandtrap and Aqua-Anchor.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Agreed. I doubt there will be injury or death from Agua and sand anchors, but think it likely with the Fiddlestick, in the same fashion there has been injuries with the biner block and people going off the wrong side. These techniques have advantages, but WILL lead to injury and death if used improperly. Experience AND vigilance required. Not for everyone. Be careful out there.
> R
>
Rick
wondered how ram managed to forget that one. we were all lucky it didn’t blow out when he was 60-100 more feet up. the answer is a clear affirmative.
rick
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Actually, the “Aquanchor” is Jenny’s version. I was using my “ghetto” version, which was more crudely engineered.
So no. although, yeah, kinda sorta.
T
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
Wasn’t Tom’s broken wrist from an Aqua anchor failure?
Isolated, sure; but still counts…
As for the accidents/deaths, depends on how widely used things become. Statistically speaking, the more folks that use it, the higher the probability something bad will happen. That said, I totally agree. Let folks get solid on the basic skills, and then advance to Fiddlestix/Smooth Operator, Potshots, Sandtrap and Aqua-Anchor.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Agreed. I doubt there will be injury or death from Agua and sand anchors, but think it likely with the Fiddlestick, in the same fashion there has been injuries with the biner block and people going off the wrong side. These techniques have advantages, but WILL lead to injury and death if used improperly. Experience AND vigilance required. Not for everyone. Be careful out there.
> R
>
TomJones
Actually, the “Aquanchor” is Jenny’s version. I was using my “ghetto” version, which was more crudely engineered.
So no. although, yeah, kinda sorta.
T
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
Wasn’t Tom’s broken wrist from an Aqua anchor failure?
Isolated, sure; but still counts…
As for the accidents/deaths, depends on how widely used things become. Statistically speaking, the more folks that use it, the higher the probability something bad will happen. That said, I totally agree. Let folks get solid on the basic skills, and then advance to Fiddlestix/Smooth Operator, Potshots, Sandtrap and Aqua-Anchor.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Agreed. I doubt there will be injury or death from Agua and sand anchors, but think it likely with the Fiddlestick, in the same fashion there has been injuries with the biner block and people going off the wrong side. These techniques have advantages, but WILL lead to injury and death if used improperly. Experience AND vigilance required. Not for everyone. Be careful out there.
R >
aj.outdoors
Wasn’t Tom’s broken wrist from an Aqua anchor failure?
Isolated, sure; but still counts…
As for the accidents/deaths, depends on how widely used things become. Statistically speaking, the more folks that use it, the higher the probability something bad will happen. That said, I totally agree. Let folks get solid on the basic skills, and then advance to Fiddlestix/Smooth Operator, Potshots, Sandtrap and Aqua-Anchor.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Agreed. I doubt there will be injury or death from Agua and sand anchors, but think it likely with the Fiddlestick, in the same fashion there has been injuries with the biner block and people going off the wrong side. These techniques have advantages, but WILL lead to injury and death if used improperly. Experience AND vigilance required. Not for everyone. Be careful out there. > R
RAM
Agreed. I doubt there will be injury or death from Agua and sand anchors, but think it likely with the Fiddlestick, in the same fashion there has been injuries with the biner block and people going off the wrong side. These techniques have advantages, but WILL lead to injury and death if used improperly. Experience AND vigilance required. Not for everyone. Be careful out there. R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan wrote:
The problem with the macrame and the Smooth Operator (the name given to my version of the Fiddlestick) is that they are advanced techniques. I noob can mess them up and get into trouble if care is not taken. Zion’s popular routes seem to attract a lot of noobs since it is easy access very popular and most don’t require much in the way of advanced skills. Reccomending advanced techniques as the required method might get people into trouble they don’t want to end up in. Just my two cents.
But yup I used the Smooth Operator in Spry recently and it made me feel good knowing I didn’t impact the rope groves as much as I otherwise would. I say if you feel comfortable with the techniques and feel they benifit you or the rock then by all means use it. But maybe not a good idea to push as the go to meathod in some areas?
Luke
Sent from my phone
rickinlo wrote:
>Thanks for the input. I was trying to think of a quick, easy way to prevent rope grooves. And yeah, fiddlesticks. Duh right?
So it’s official. Fiddle sticks and macrame knots are a necessary technique for doing sandstone canyons. We should get Zion to put it on the notes for everyone doing Spry Canyon.
Or, maybe that’s a terrible idea. I doubt Zion SAR would appreciate it.
>
Luke Galyan
The problem with the macrame and the Smooth Operator (the name given to my version of the Fiddlestick) is that they are advanced techniques. I noob can mess them up and get into trouble if care is not taken. Zion’s popular routes seem to attract a lot of noobs since it is easy access very popular and most don’t require much in the way of advanced skills. Reccomending advanced techniques as the required method might get people into trouble they don’t want to end up in. Just my two cents.
But yup I used the Smooth Operator in Spry recently and it made me feel good knowing I didn’t impact the rope groves as much as I otherwise would. I say if you feel comfortable with the techniques and feel they benifit you or the rock then by all means use it. But maybe not a good idea to push as the go to meathod in some areas?
Luke
Sent from my phone
rickinlo rickinlo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the input. I was trying to think of a quick, easy way to prevent rope grooves. And yeah, fiddlesticks. Duh right?
So it’s official. Fiddle sticks and macrame knots are a necessary technique for doing sandstone canyons. We should get Zion to put it on the notes for everyone doing Spry Canyon.
Or, maybe that’s a terrible idea. I doubt Zion SAR would appreciate it. >