The last bolt I saw placed was one of 17 (if my bad memory serves me correctly) that were drilled by myself and a partner. Don’t over react; that was in the 1980’s. That was also the last time I considered the placement of a bolt as a viable solution to a canyon problem. My bolt kit has been replaced with, webbing, rings, knife and a SandTrap. I am, however, not at all opposed to rappelling off a handily placed bolt. Funny, I have walked right past and not seen many bolts (including one that I placed). So, what is all this incessant bolt warring about, I wonder?
This New Age of canyoneering offers such a vast variety of anchor solutions to the experienced and the inexperienced as well. Like so many things, often the more one knows the more there is to learn. Take your choice; clip into a bolt, run through a sling with ring, sling a chock stone, trust the deadman, use an Omnisling or SandTrap, slip in a little chock knot, counter balance rappel off a partner, go off a PotShot, run a sling through an arch and clove hitch around a piece of hiking pole and do it clean (brilliant one Tom and my personal favorite!)…whatever suits your level of creativity and personal goal for the canyon and the day. What great abundance of choices! What a great thing to argue about, really!
One of my main partners and friends has learned to resist the urge to tell me what is just around the corner or how to best solve a canyon problem. Even if there is a sling with ring, a bolt, a deadman or nothing, I have come to enjoy pushing to the front and solving the problem on my own terms (after shushing him). Recently in the Grand Canyon, a group of us were on an exploration in a canyon which might have been a real coup had it offered a nontechnical route out of the main canyon through the Redwall to the rim. So, a couple of us (John H. & Dan R.) independent of each other forged ahead seeking bypasses and pushing ourselves to down climb all the drops leaving the trailing group to use hand lines and set up rappels as needed. At the very end of the canyon we were eventually forced to set a rappel. With the building of the anchor came disappointment but the challenge of descending an unknown canyon totally free was a thrill that I will not soon forget. A similar thrill is doing the high fiver at the finale of a technical canyon that has been successfully ghosted (leaving nothing that a light rain won’t wipe clean). This represents my personal choice.
If there is a bolt, I may or may not clip into it. If there is an old angle piton or a high winter-worn chock stone with a tangle of sling, I would prefer the piton (as in the Constrychnine rappel now being discussed). If there is a good bolt there next time, I’ll use it.
Will my personal opinion add any particular insight to anyone reading here? Have I swayed anyone from being anti or pro bolt? It is not likely and it is not my intent. Everyone is supposed to be nice and conform to the wishes of the right and just, correct?
Ha! I don’t give a rat’s arse one way or the other about the bolting issue being resolved. I enjoy the passion that rises in topics of this sort. It is far more interesting than road and weather reports. I am getting used to the rich and spicy banter and even the bad manners. There is rudeness, mud slinging right and left and I don’t get my skirt all blown up about it any more, after a year of staying tuned in (and out).
I have met nearly 100 new people this past year in the canyons and camping areas. Rarely have I met a more friendly and passionate lot. I still love moving through a canyon in silence on my own or with a large group (which always surprises me). The camaraderie is infectious and the infection is as contagious as anything I’ve ever seen.
Here’s to you voicing your opinion! Here’s to you sharing your disagreement with each other! Bring it on and bring it BIG! Most of all; here’s to your PASSION!
Jenny
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “flutedwalls” wrote: It’s a small insignificant bump in the road thank you to be highlighted as a”pontificator” that along the path was void of “proposal.” I hope I’m color blind, really to those P words. snip>
Dear “flutedwalls”, I sincerely did not mean to offend you with my comment that your previous post was a “pontification” on various topics. I truly thought that was your intention. E-mails and forum post do not tell the whole story and are misunderstood far too often. I admit my quilt in this regard. So, my apology to you for my offending response. In reading your latest post, I am now inclined to believe that you are full of positive views and good “proposals” for solution. (There are those “p” words again.)
I feel connected to the land – desert, mountains. They are my home. When they are soiled or damaged, (or a person/parties are injured or die) – it impacts me, and occasionally I share opinions. Keeping matters to a ‘nod and wink” and avoiding the written line? Another aspiration I suppose?
I could add; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (concert) was splendid last nite, as was the visit to eclectic and wonderful Frida Bistro (with an outdoor couple training for a Scottish marathon – that had most of their running gear stolen Sat). And the morning snow, so beautiful. And knowing that somebody’s turning in the “fluff” in the backcountry; and the forecast for warming temps in the “South”. Spring round the corner. Wonderful yes! And most all of you (that post) are positively WONDERFUL too. (I hope that’s passive and polite and Gude Enuf, thank you!)
Watch out, flutedwalls, you are sounding a bit like like me here; and a bit like Joseph Campbell too. Sincerely, I hope to wrestle topics with you around a campfire or in a canyon someday. Me thinks we would find very much to agree upon. Gude Enuf?
Respectfully (especially of your passion and courage to lay it out here), Jenny
flutedwalls
The elephant in the room? Or what’s the answer (for all the newbies coming into canyoneering)? Or maybe the best response is that it’s a dodging bouncing ball that each participant (canyoneer) gets to toss or avoid. I don’t know!
Promotion of canyon environments has negligible or noticeable impacts? Zion and (forthcoming) Arches (permit systems). Resources have an up or down impact after promotion?
Reference (repeatedly) to mentoring, teaching (of) skills, technique, safety, resource protection, were subtle but strong suggestions in my previous piece (which one claims is somehow pious “pontification” and void of proposals. Alternative views, when not matching our own, are often easier to label as pejorative than to weave into a fabric that combines what we already see and understand.
For the last number of years I’ve been involved with many groups that are new to canyoneering. Hours are spent in a back yard, on walls and individual attention is paid to each participant. And then when the canyon experience arrives, the parties hopefully have a foundation first for safety and enjoyment, but then also for care for the land and others.
The crowds (of users) are too big though, for a few, to make much of a difference. Some teach solid skiils though at ACA gatherings, Club gatherings with mentors and private groups that have skilled caring trainers. Web sites also have detailed outlines that benefit many newbies.
But yearly, more lemmings leap off canyon walls – this after Kelsey issues new books, new canyons arrive on this or that XYZ site “prompts”, and the lure of setting and sliding down a rope calls out.
I talk with people re ropes, rap devices, safety, efficiency in getting down, and retrieving ropes (avoiding rope groves.) Then to alternative anchors, body anchors (for all but the last). Then once on the ground there is more ‘pontification” (?) re footpaths and user trails and systems and styles to allay or minimize damage to canyons.
Each canyon participant, especially experienced folk, get to do as they wish though. If I’m with an experienced group, we do a canyon and then hopefully have a joyful time during and after – and marvel at the sunset, moon and stars too (and the barking frogs and canyon wren.) But if there is a group of 15 youth and 4 leaders cross the way, do I/we avoid them or attempt to engage and possibly find/make time for a teaching session? (many still teach me too)
Actions and practice are one thing. But to aspire to care for and consider the interests of the land and those we go out with – that’s a hoped for direction.
Would be nice if organized training sessions regularly offered in major metro areas or elsewhere, where more would participate. Alternative views, visions re the desert and systems re to skill and technique could be offered. Rich Carlson already provides a major and meaningful forum for training. But many don’t know about or avoid the opportunity.
If one talks about concerns, hopes for a more measured look at “training” by experienced folk and laments the damage done to the environment (and to the death and injury to participants), does this really fit in the parlance of “pontification”? I wonder. But then some praise Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and the new queen Bachman. Alternative views in this democracy of ours (no Republic) abound.
It’s a small insignificant bump in the road thank you to be highlighted as a”pontificator” that along the path was void of “proposal.” I hope I’m color blind, really to those P words. I’m weekly involved in so many “controversies” and “disputes”, that alternative views and diversity is accepted as just what – well the norm. I even was at hearing a few weeks back when PC Joe Wrona (former iconic climber/canyoneer) pushed a point a bit too far – consequences followed.
Most folk I meet in canyon country (and the mountains too) I really enjoy. And then sometimes I/we hear whispers that folk have small concerns re we or me? Styles and manner come into play, darn/shame?
There are some lively folk that daily break and eat their bread on this web site. Play on folk, with your robust, joyful and compelling endeavors. Along the way though, I hope that more of you (and us) take and make the time to assist, mentor (train?) others before (or while) they launch off into canyon country.
And that polite? reference to pontification and lack of proposal? A certain sign of spring I suppose? And if the dial spins there – no proposal? How many times has it spun in front of legions of canyon (leaders) mentors, that lean toward a canyon brew or bravado, before they would ever take time to listen and assist another? (I don’t know, really, I’m not in charge of anyone else – especially others feelings or views).
Written communication, an often soiled means of narrative; especially when void of body language, tone, context, eye contact, listening, or reciprocation. And then of course, what’s a parties interests (not bottom line), safe discussion zones or areas that are out of bounds?
I feel connected to the land – desert, mountains. They are my home. When they are soiled or damaged, (or a person/parties are injured or die) – it impacts me, and occasionally I share opinions. Keeping matters to a ‘nod and wink” and avoiding the written line? Another aspiration I suppose?
I could add; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (concert) was splendid last nite, as was the visit to eclectic and wonderful Frida Bistro (with an outdoor couple training for a Scottish marathon – that had most of their running gear stolen Sat). And the morning snow, so beautiful. And knowing that somebody’s turning in the “fluff” in the backcountry; and the forecast for warming temps in the “South”. Spring round the corner. Wonderful yes! And most all of you (that post) are positively WONDERFUL too. (I hope that’s passive and polite and Gude Enuf, thank you!)
______________
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Jenny” wrote:
To “flutedwalls”:
Honestly my bliss remains ignorant on most of your issues. Might you consider attaching a name to your pontification of such a vast array of topics? BTW, I love the idea that the spirit of Joseph Campbell may be languishing in our beloved canyons. I too, believe the best of people.
I feel inclined to respond to many of your “questions” but I’m uncertain that you are seeking answers. If so, would you consider a rewrite and toss it back out to the forum community for responses? Or maybe it is just me; my glass 1/2 full way of being and endless search for solution to “problems”. Others may likely hear your voice very differently.
Even in your anonymity I repeat, especially to you: > Here’s to you for voicing your opinion! > Here’s to you sharing your perspective (even if I cannot find a single proposal for solution after searching your words multiple times). > Most of all; here’s to your PASSION
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “flutedwalls” wrote:
I’m happy “Joseph Campell” is lingering, languishing and loving the canyons of the Colorado Plateau. “Follow You Bliss” was and is his moniker, and to that he often added, “Pursue the Rapture of Life.” >
Jenny
To “flutedwalls”:
Honestly my bliss remains ignorant on most of your issues. Might you consider attaching a name to your pontification of such a vast array of topics? BTW, I love the idea that the spirit of Joseph Campbell may be languishing in our beloved canyons. I too, believe the best of people.
I feel inclined to respond to many of your “questions” but I’m uncertain that you are seeking answers. If so, would you consider a rewrite and toss it back out to the forum community for responses? Or maybe it is just me; my glass 1/2 full way of being and endless search for solution to “problems”. Others may likely hear your voice very differently.
Even in your anonymity I repeat, especially to you: Here’s to you for voicing your opinion! Here’s to you sharing your perspective (even if I cannot find a single proposal for solution after searching your words multiple times). Most of all; here’s to your PASSION
Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “flutedwalls” wrote:
I’m happy “Joseph Campell” is lingering, languishing and loving the canyons of the Colorado Plateau. “Follow You Bliss” was and is his moniker, and to that he often added, “Pursue the Rapture of Life.”
tj_wetherell
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “flutedwalls” wrote:
There is joy in sharing moments with kindred souls, but after the feast, remember, others may follow without your instinct, insight or inclination.
That is a profound and true statement. What would you propose as a path forward? Regulate ourselves lest we be (more) regulated? How do we (all) educate the newcomer, recognizing that they probably don’t frequent this small forum? Like any user group, the bad apple minority (even if misbehaving out of ignorance) can affect us all, and the canyons we love to visit.
-tom(w)
flutedwalls
I’m happy “Joseph Campell” is lingering, languishing and loving the canyons of the Colorado Plateau. “Follow You Bliss” was and is his moniker, and to that he often added, “Pursue the Rapture of Life.”
There is strange dichotomy of systems (canyons) in the state – where bolts abound and where bolts are shunned. Most experienced travelers are able to find(most often),bolt free “ways” to get down. Untrained newbies though, are quite a different crowd.
And what of all the exceptions: Zion (bolted) and now heavily bolted Arches.
And who trains the poorly mentored leaders that lead the poorly led packs of youth/young adult into canyons these days? And many canyon paths that were once wild are now tamed. And many drops (that probably U or I could rig with a body anchor or extended line) are mishandled by legions. Ropes are damaged and serious sandstone cuts exist when ropes are pulled. Easy on this site to say what folk should do…
But get behind, or in front of a band of canyon newbies these days and Safety, Resource Protection and Skill and Technique are questionable guidelines. Land Managers talk of Safety and Resource Protection. Easy to see the resource damage in so many canyons in Zion, but folk avoid or dodge the issue of what has happened to N Wash in the past decade and what is happening now to Robber’s Roost; and the onslaught after 127 Hours.
Easy to control/contain our behavior and that of those operating in our circle or universe. And easier for some to scurry into the rabbit hole and disregard the rest of the canyon community. What of the hordes out there that skimp on safety and scoff at or pay little attention to resource protection? These matters can be referred to in context, or avoided, when “talking” about the pros and cons of an isolated bolt here or there. I wonder though really, are some oblivious to all of the newbies or poorly trained out there and to the practices they offer?
I already know – plenty – about folk going to the Grand Canyon, the Nort Wash Area or to the Roost; that use “natural anchor” or ghosting systems exclusively. This is not news, at least to me. Do you folk though understand that there are hordes that either don’t comprehend or don’t care about setting up artificial anchor systems? They walk, hike, get on a rope, hang on for dear life and then move on down canyon. Grim really, thinking of all those that trash ropes, contribute to rope grooves, and leave litter. That is part of what is going on in “canyons” these days. I’ve seen too much of “it” in the past five years. Even in the past 10 days. (litter left by 18 unsupervised kids rapping in Arches – yikes)
Before and after the strident permit system went in, in Zion, I had the chance to speak with many land managers. And just in the past ten days I stumbled on two circumstances where I got to speak with folk involved in the Arches Canyons and Climbing Plan. Land Managers, many, have different eyes than practiced canyoneers. Some have different views on bolts too – but to most, safety and resource protection trumps concern re anchors. Interesting to me that so many canyon travelers avoid discussion of or care re resource protection. And, when former wild country is tamed, it can still be beautiful, but does it hold the “bliss” it did once before? Spin the dial, dive back to the 1980’s – you, can have(most of)the canyons to yourself. And maybe you, others, whoever, can STOP and train all the whordes that will creep into the canyons this spring and summer too. Oh I love those ubiquitous rope grooves in areas where the rock was once “oh so natural.” And black marks on walls too. And all the bravado of conquering the canyons; statutes in the Roost and N Wash will one day be erected. (Oh for the days of former wild lands, word of mouth, a wink and a nod, and mostly quiet). Kudos to you “queens and knights” that have tamed the canyons, using what ever design, system or synergy! There is joy in sharing moments with kindred souls, but after the feast, remember, others may follow without your instinct, insight or inclination.
_______________
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Jenny” wrote:
The last bolt I saw placed was one of 17 (if my bad memory serves me correctly) that were drilled by myself and a partner. Don’t over react; that was in the 1980’s. That was also the last time I considered the placement of a bolt as a viable solution to a canyon problem. My bolt kit has been replaced with, webbing, rings, knife and a SandTrap. I am, however, not at all opposed to rappelling off a handily placed bolt. Funny, I have walked right past and not seen many bolts (including one that I placed). So, what is all this incessant bolt warring about, I wonder?
This New Age of canyoneering offers such a vast variety of anchor solutions to the experienced and the inexperienced as well. Like so many things, often the more one knows the more there is to learn. Take your choice; clip into a bolt, run through a sling with ring, sling a chock stone, trust the deadman, use an Omnisling or SandTrap, slip in a little chock knot, counter balance rappel off a partner, go off a PotShot, run a sling through an arch and clove hitch around a piece of hiking pole and do it clean (brilliant one Tom and my personal favorite!)…whatever suits your level of creativity and personal goal for the canyon and the day. What great abundance of choices! What a great thing to argue about, really!
One of my main partners and friends has learned to resist the urge to tell me what is just around the corner or how to best solve a canyon problem. Even if there is a sling with ring, a bolt, a deadman or nothing, I have come to enjoy pushing to the front and solving the problem on my own terms (after shushing him). Recently in the Grand Canyon, a group of us were on an exploration in a canyon which might have been a real coup had it offered a nontechnical route out of the main canyon through the Redwall to the rim. So, a couple of us (John H. & Dan R.) independent of each other forged ahead seeking bypasses and pushing ourselves to down climb all the drops leaving the trailing group to use hand lines and set up rappels as needed. At the very end of the canyon we were eventually forced to set a rappel. With the building of the anchor came disappointment but the challenge of descending an unknown canyon totally free was a thrill that I will not soon forget. A similar thrill is doing the high fiver at the finale of a technical canyon that has been successfully ghosted (leaving nothing that a light rain won’t wipe clean). This represents my personal choice.
If there is a bolt, I may or may not clip into it. If there is an old angle piton or a high winter-worn chock stone with a tangle of sling, I would prefer the piton (as in the Constrychnine rappel now being discussed). If there is a good bolt there next time, I’ll use it.
Will my personal opinion add any particular insight to anyone reading here? Have I swayed anyone from being anti or pro bolt? It is not likely and it is not my intent. Everyone is supposed to be nice and conform to the wishes of the right and just, correct?
Ha! I don’t give a rat’s arse one way or the other about the bolting issue being resolved. I enjoy the passion that rises in topics of this sort. It is far more interesting than road and weather reports. I am getting used to the rich and spicy banter and even the bad manners. There is rudeness, mud slinging right and left and I don’t get my skirt all blown up about it any more, after a year of staying tuned in (and out).
I have met nearly 100 new people this past year in the canyons and camping areas. Rarely have I met a more friendly and passionate lot. I still love moving through a canyon in silence on my own or with a large group (which always surprises me). The camaraderie is infectious and the infection is as contagious as anything I’ve ever seen.
Here’s to you voicing your opinion! > Here’s to you sharing your disagreement with each other! > Bring it on and bring it BIG! > Most of all; here’s to your PASSION!
Jenny >