Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
> Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
> Tony
nat_smale
Great post Ram! I really appreciate your big tent, inclusive and non-agressive attitude on this forum.
Nat
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
It is a lovely day to sit in the loft, on the computer and regularly peer out the window at the high winds sending the snow from this storm all about, while sheltered areas have snow clinging to branches, providing a winter wonderland. Beautiful.
And I find it embarrassing to say that I just spent a time reading the Skifast posts provided by Scott below. I read them from oldest to newest. Interesting reading the evolution.
True, there is foul language mixed in (Please refrain Ski) and more than a share of insults tossed, I personally found the experience enjoyable. I understand why many might be offended, but it alternates from what I take as tongue and cheek to the absurd and back again. There is actually several posts that are constructive and quite a few more that are reasonable expression of differing opinions, albeit with Ski’s edge to it. Many more than I would have guessed. >
RAM
It is a lovely day to sit in the loft, on the computer and regularly peer out the window at the high winds sending the snow from this storm all about, while sheltered areas have snow clinging to branches, providing a winter wonderland. Beautiful.
And I find it embarrassing to say that I just spent a time reading the Skifast posts provided by Scott below. I read them from oldest to newest. Interesting reading the evolution.
True, there is foul language mixed in (Please refrain Ski) and more than a share of insults tossed, I personally found the experience enjoyable. I understand why many might be offended, but it alternates from what I take as tongue and cheek to the absurd and back again. There is actually several posts that are constructive and quite a few more that are reasonable expression of differing opinions, albeit with Ski’s edge to it. Many more than I would have guessed.
Several folks from the community have theorized that the 3 major forums attract “like thinking people” to specific forums and people chose their forum like comfort food. And that folks feel intimidated posting on some of the other forums, where they feel their opinion is in the minority. I think we do ourselves a disservice by limiting dissenting views. I wish this Ski fella would do it with less obscenity and insulting comments, but…I would hate to lose one more person that differs from the most vocal people on this site.
Besides, look how much discussion rose from it. OK it may feel like watching a car accident sometimes, but sometimes it doesn’t.
With all respect for Scott’s and Tim’s differing views, nor dismissing their concerns……this was my take.
Ram, not in the role of a moderator.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover wrote:
I dunno Ram, I think I’m with Scott on this one. > skifast never really seems to express a view – he just rants and throws out goofy terms like ‘eco-terrorist’ to describe anyone who wants to limit impact. At what point do we just say enough? If, for instance a poster was constantly advocating chopping stairs with a g-pick and was in fact doing so routinely, would we just say oh well, whatever a person wants to do or say is just fine? I doubt it. > Maybe the impression that skifast has lost all credibility and can simply be ignored is why he is tolerated to the extent he is. Whatever the case, I’m really sick of his attempts to paint anyone who doesn’t agree with him as an extremist. > Yes, it’s easy enough to just ignore his posts, but it would be even easier to just admit he’s a troll who adds nothing to the group and moderate him. If he ever has something useful to say, fine, post it. Till then block it. > Â > Tim
> ________________________________ > From: RAM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
Disagree Scott. So the guy doesn’t have a future in the diplomatic corp. No big. He is passionate. I wish he would rein in just a touch as to not come off as attacking, but love him expressing his views. If we all agreed, how boring would that be? 😉 > I think he is a climber and canyoneer too, but not positive.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote:
The bolts placed at the last drop weren’t placed by real climbers, they were placed by a reckless idiot (unless they have been replaced).  As mentioned they were very loose, dangerous, and placed extremely poorly. Very risky and the hangars were hardware store washers I could easily pull off with my bare hands.
Â
Tony, don’t pay any attention to skifast.
Â
He’s been trolling here for a long time and has never said anything useful.  He/she is no climber or canyoneer either.   He or she is here to troll looking to get a rise out of people and nothing more (meant for informational purposes to the unfamiliar, rather than to attack).
Â
For those that want to see some history/clarification, see below:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/msearch?AT=skifast2112&AM=contains&pos=0&cnt=10
> Regardless of anyone’s opinion on bolts, read through the above and see all the “useful” information that he/she has provided to the canyoneering community. After reading through it, regardless of opinion on bolts, it’s pretty easy to make a decision on whether or not the person is worth listening to.  You decide.
Â
________________________________
From: skifast2112 To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:27 PM
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group.
Why the F__ can you just not live and let live?
Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
> Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
> Tony
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When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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phil
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
So I take it you see the removal of bolts forcing and limiting other groups then? And where is the line on impacts? G-picking is legal in many places. ATV tracks proliferate. Roads get expanded. Social trails go where they will. All these things makes getting around and through easier. Where are the boundaries? Who decides. Anyone who wants to?
Much of that is apples and oranges and way out of context. Law and agency policy decides much of what you describe. G-picking? Actually an example that supports my philosophy. Can’t do much about it after the fact. Haven’t seen many g-pick steps procreating recently either. Seems like education went a long way.
I get your statement and passion but also realize we are talking about a specific context. For me, I am most intrigued by the sport anchors. Safety is one of the parameters I support in bolt removal; if they pose a real hazard than they are worth removing. Nothing about safety plays into those sport bolts.
Phillip
phil
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
> Dave B. mentioned bolts as the great equalizer, as if that is a bad thing. There seems to be a subset of the clean canyoneering ethic that is derived from that elitist perspective. Do we really want to be as arrogant.
> Arrogant, arrogant arrogant. Yawn. Why does advocating that the canyons should be done in its natural state have to be arrogant or elitist?
It doesn’t, it depends on the nuance of the statement. The “great equalizer” and anyone can do it argument is fundamentally elitist. Advocating low impact isn’t. Big difference, hence why I was highlighting one statement.
Phillip
steve mestdagh
My opinion as a climber first and canyoneer 2nd, I think there’s a time & place for sport climbing and trad climbing. There’s definitely trad routes and probably a sprinkling of fixed gear (bolts & drilled baby angles) along the road in N. Wash. I wouldn’t be suprised if a few sport routes went in.
That said …
As a canyoneer, I’m very anti-bolt. Putting these together, I don’t think Baptist/Chute is a good place for sport climbs. Pull ’em!
 -steve
________________________________ From: evergreen_dean dbrooks@integralpays.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:40 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
 My wife has been bossed into submission and the kids are sufficiently scared. When the single digit IQ, eco-terrorist, tree hugging, bolt chopping crew is formed, please count me in.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “skifast2112” wrote:
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. > Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? > Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
Tony >
evergreen_dean
My wife has been bossed into submission and the kids are sufficiently scared. When the single digit IQ, eco-terrorist, tree hugging, bolt chopping crew is formed, please count me in.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “skifast2112” wrote:
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. > Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? > Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
Tony >
TomJones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
The bolts aren’t sacred to me by any means. On the other hand, preserving the vast array of experiences people have in the backcountry is. I don’t see either placement or removal as inherently rude. I look more into the consistency of argument and justification. The sense of entitlement to place and remove bolts is mostly personal. I am not convinced I should remove bolts someone else placed. >
I support you in valuing an array of experiences in ‘the backcountry’.
The question of how wide an array can be considered appropriate, though, is one for discussion. For instance, I would consider dirt bikes riding Little Wild Horse Canyon to be outside the array. What about dirt bikes riding Wild Horse Canyon? Harder to say.
I support the citizen’s right to place bolts where allowed, and other citizen’s right to pull them out as they wish. And many have noted that I express both those rights at times.
Truthfully, I think it would be great if, after doing whatever they did out there, they removed the bolts and patched the holes. That is the standard to which movie crews are held.
However, an inconspicuous 2-bolt rap anchor above an awesome hand crack? I have no problem with that, as more environmental damage would probably be done by jump-cleaning cams out of a crack climb in the soft Coconino sandstone.
Tom
RAM
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I rarely see their placement as rude. I do however see forcing or limiting a group of unknown people to one method as rude and unjustified.
So I take it you see the removal of bolts forcing and limiting other groups then? And where is the line on impacts? G-picking is legal in many places. ATV tracks proliferate. Roads get expanded. Social trails go where they will. All these things makes getting around and through easier. Where are the boundaries? Who decides. Anyone who wants to?
> But then again I also don’t believe bolts beget bolts; I think people consciously decide to place bolts in places they deem fit.
I must strongly disagree with you on this one. Bolts get placed, rock gets chipped etc., because people think that it what should be done. What always has been done, what is expected. They see kelsey say….. “place a bolt and hanger here” and they go out and get the tools to do so. That is why there are so many poorly placed bolts. No depth of experience. Recently, new ideas became more generally known, with their advocates cheerleading. Will they win the day? Time will tell. I see parallels with climbing protection. Pitons were the standard. Now nuts, cams and the like are now. Why? Because the new tools are removable, they don’t scar rock. Was there resistance to the new ideas? You bet. Folks espousing them called arrogant? For sure. Are there more bolts now than there was 2 years ago? Yes. And more than the 2 years before then? Yes. Like it or not, bolts continue to proliferate, largely placed by the occasional guide service, but mostly by people who haven’t been introduced to alternatives. Is the growth of bolting slowing? I am going to guess yes. Why? My guess is because people see natural anchors and they now consider them viable, safe and easy options. We do what we see, what we know.
> Dave B. mentioned bolts as the great equalizer, as if that is a bad thing. There seems to be a subset of the clean canyoneering ethic that is derived from that elitist perspective. Do we really want to be as arrogant.
Arrogant, arrogant arrogant. Yawn. Why does advocating that the canyons should be done in its natural state have to be arrogant or elitist? You don’t see traditional climbing areas bolted into submission. I don’t feel entitled to chop my way up 5.11’s. I think that would be arrogant of me to feel entitled to LEVEL the playing field. 5.10-5.15’s are for those with the natural and developed skills to go there. Not for everyone including me. I am not good enough and I don’t feel cheated not seeing these places, as much as i would like to. I don’t deserve it. There are many canyons out there that are too difficult, committing, beyond my skill or tolerance for risk. I LOVE that that is true. It could easily be done, placing bolts, to make several (but not all) of them within my ability. Doing so? Now that would be arrogant. I guess i will just have to get by not seeing these places, with some envy for, humility and respect for the place and those with more talent and the gumption to apply it in those places. Kudos to them and i am thrilled they still have unspoiled places to ply their skill and test themselves
as that and foster the class system within our community? Is it really such a shame if “they make anything possible for anybody”?
Yes, I believe so
We have to pick our poison. I see the judgement of bolters and the tit-for-tat removal/placement as worse for our community than the metal protrusions that exist in the backcountry. Mileage will vary. >I just see an ironic power struggle in this durable issue. I just assume avoid such things in the field. I chose not to let their existence bother me.
My view of what is happening is bolts continue to proliferate, now more slowly. Poorly placed bolts get removed. Recently placed bolts in Larry placed by and only for one SAR event, got removed. Bolts that are old and are not safe anymore get removed. Some have removed bolts they placed years ago because they have different views now. There are very few places where “in the field” bolt wars have occurred, Neon being the biggest exception. I don’t see that the facts support that very much bolt removal is happening at all, especially beyond the criteria listed above.
I have never stated my primary premise is leave no trace (or the like). I like it as a philosophy but it tertiary in guidance. It also seems secondary in the bolt argument
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
(hence the ad nausea discussions about which impacts more). The bolt debate hold little water in regards to the impact issue. It really boils down to personal preferences; how we view and foster ideas of pristine/untouched/worthwhile/authentic.
Preferences? Or philosophy? I enjoy these discussions. I apologize to those that don’t. Old ideas with a new slant. Different circumstances creating new perspectives. These issues are not of earth shattering importance. Many more issues hold greater importance in this world. I find finding my way through the maze of ideas, to sometimes arrive at a thing to believe in, sometimes with certainty, sometimes with out, to be great exercise. Thanks for playing
phil
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote: >
> If we all have the privilege to place bolts, wherever legal, then I would propose that we all have the privilege to remove bolts. When did these little pieces of metal become so instantly sacred? Why is removal rude and placing them not? Isn’t the goal to leave as little impact as possible? >
The bolts aren’t sacred to me by any means. On the other hand, preserving the vast array of experiences people have in the backcountry is. I don’t see either placement or removal as inherently rude. I look more into the consistency of argument and justification. The sense of entitlement to place and remove bolts is mostly personal. I am not convinced I should remove bolts someone else placed.
I rarely see their placement as rude. I do however see forcing or limiting a group of unknown people to one method as rude and unjustified. But the again I also don’t believe bolts beget bolts; I think people consciously decide to place bolts in places they deem fit. Two very different perspectives that justify different judgements and actions.
Dave B. mentioned bolts as the great equalizer, as if that is a bad thing. There seems to be a subset of the clean canyoneering ethic that is derived from that elitist perspective. Do we really want to be as arrogant as that and foster the class system within our community? Is it really such a shame if “they make anything possible for anybody”? But maybe I am lucky, my experience has never been degraded or limited by bolts. They are no more bothersome to me today than the plethora of sand and glue filled holes that liter clean canyons.
We have to pick our poison. I see the judgement of bolters and the tit-for-tat removal/placement as worse for our community than the metal protrusions that exist in the backcountry. Mileage will vary. I just see an ironic power struggle in this durable issue. I just assume avoid such things in the field. I chose not to let their existence bother me.
I have never stated my primary premise is leave no trace (or the like). I like it as a philosophy but it tertiary in guidance. It also seems secondary in the bolt argument (hence the ad nausea discussions about which impacts more). The bolt debate hold little water in regards to the impact issue. It really boils down to personal preferences; how we view and foster ideas of pristine/untouched/worthwhile/authentic. And there isn’t much of an objective discussion there.
Hegemony and moral imperatives. Power struggles. I enjoy discussing such things on forums but they are not part of my experience in the backcountry. I will count myself lucky.
But back to one of my points….do our ethics supersede those of sport climbing? Removing rappel bolts seems an entirely different ball game than removing someones climbing anchors. New dynamic for the community. Can sport climbers and clean canyoneers exist in the same drainage? Hope so.
Phillip
Mudcat
Every year I know that Canyoneering Winter has begun when we have the first big bolting debate. I’m sure that’s somewhere in the Canyoneering Almanac. Bill
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Is ANY level of drilling too much for your sensibilities?
I can’t speak for ski fast, but I myself dislike many of the bolts but don’t feel the responsibility or privilege is mine to remove bolts.
If we all have the privilege to place bolts, wherever legal, then I would propose that we all have the privilege to remove bolts. When did these little pieces of metal become so instantly sacred? Why is removal rude and placing them not? Isn’t the goal to leave as little impact as possible?
>Complicated subject but it definitely becomes more than just the >question quantity of bolts (as you know). Does first descent of a >canyon include ultimate control of how people use all the various technical resources in the canyon? Hope not.
Ultimately one can keep control…for a time anyway. Its easy. Keep the canyon to yourself and a few friends. At least until others find it. Dilemma? Be generous and share and try to establish a local ethic, that is voluntary and unenforceable. OR……Keep secret and then when others find it, have no say. I like to share. I share less now and it brings me no joy that that is the case.
The “local ethic” and “first descent” concepts are so flawed and arrogant as it is;
As for local ethics….Its advocacy for a point of view. Its an attempt to influence. It is not binding. To lobby is not a dirty word.
As for 1st descents. Them Moqui steps keep showing up rather often in our remotest finds. LOL! Using “Integral” and “Recorded” in front of “First Descent” probably comes closer to the truth, but really it is just about going down and not knowing what is around the corner. Its the act of discovery that drives it for me.
If its related to the idea that these were put in by an “organization” than I would like to highlight that is pure speculation at this point. No real evidence to point any fingers yet. Baptist Draw is one of the “easiest” canyons in the Swell and likely sees major turnover in the number of different users in a single year.
And now that people are aware, its a matter of time before someone encounters folks on the sport climbs, the likely folks who bolted up the area. Question ensue. Then more dialogue will happen
That was certainly a rude attack by Skifast though.
> Nah Phillip. That is just Skifast. He always livens things up. But if I were him or one of his friends, I don’t know how proud or pleased I would be about him admitting this… > “I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. > See how fun he is? I would like to meet him sometime and maybe I can join the single digit club?….. that is if i don’t belong already, regularly rapping off of sand and water. 😉 > Ram
>
scott patterson
“Disagree Scott. So the guy doesn’t have a future in the diplomatic corp. No big. He is passionate. I wish he would rein in just a touch as to not come off as attacking, but love him expressing his views. If we all agreed, how boring would that be? ;-)”  Regardless if one agrees with his/her opinion, I’ve never seen anything useful information posted by the person in question.  One can read through the threads and try to find something though.    I’d appreciate it if ANYONE can point out some USEFUL posts (as in something I can go use and apply to canyoneering) made by the said member.  “I think he is a climber and canyoneer too, but not positive.”  If he/she is, he/she isn’t a very good one. As mentioned many times over the past few years (and with photographs), the bolts placed at the last drop in Baptist were extremely poorly placed and used hardware store washers and hangars.  Also, as mentioned before they were bent and could easily be yanked off using bare hands. They are not climbing bolts, nor were they placed well.  This has been pointed out many times over the last couple of years (and by many people), but skifast still advocates keeping them.   No real or experienced canyoneer or climber would advocate something so reckless (regardless of one’s opinion of bolts).  A lot of us have done some reckless things over the years, but learning from those experiences and changing behaviors is different than recommending over and over again to people that they should use and keep “bolt stations” poorly placed with thin hardware store washers that can easily be yanked off with a bare hand. I think even all the credible pro-bolt canyoneers (or climbers) would agree.  As said, the person is best ignored.  You are right that it is no big.  In fact, none of it is really worth listening to or getting bothered about at all, which is what I was pointing out.  — In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote:
The bolts placed at the last drop weren’t placed by real climbers, they were placed by a reckless idiot (unless they have been replaced).  As mentioned they were very loose, dangerous, and placed extremely poorly. Very risky and the hangars were hardware store washers I could easily pull off with my bare hands. >  > Tony, don’t pay any attention to skifast. >  > He’s been trolling here for a long time and has never said anything useful.  He/she is no climber or canyoneer either.   He or she is here to troll looking to get a rise out of people and nothing more (meant for informational purposes to the unfamiliar, rather than to attack). >  > For those that want to see some history/clarification, see below:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/msearch?AT=skifast2112&AM=contains&pos=0&cnt=10
> Regardless of anyone’s opinion on bolts, read through the above and see all the “useful” information that he/she has provided to the canyoneering community. After reading through it, regardless of opinion on bolts, it’s pretty easy to make a decision on whether or not the person is worth listening to.  You decide. > Â
________________________________ > From: skifast2112 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. > Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? > Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
Tony
—
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Tim Hoover
I dunno Ram, I think I’m with Scott on this one. skifast never really seems to express a view – he just rants and throws out goofy terms like ‘eco-terrorist’ to describe anyone who wants to limit impact. At what point do we just say enough? If, for instance a poster was constantly advocating chopping stairs with a g-pick and was in fact doing so routinely, would we just say oh well, whatever a person wants to do or say is just fine? I doubt it. Maybe the impression that skifast has lost all credibility and can simply be ignored is why he is tolerated to the extent he is. Whatever the case, I’m really sick of his attempts to paint anyone who doesn’t agree with him as an extremist. Yes, it’s easy enough to just ignore his posts, but it would be even easier to just admit he’s a troll who adds nothing to the group and moderate him. If he ever has something useful to say, fine, post it. Till then block it. Â Tim
________________________________ From: RAM adkramoo@aol.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:34 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
Disagree Scott. So the guy doesn’t have a future in the diplomatic corp. No big. He is passionate. I wish he would rein in just a touch as to not come off as attacking, but love him expressing his views. If we all agreed, how boring would that be? 😉 I think he is a climber and canyoneer too, but not positive.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote:
The bolts placed at the last drop weren’t placed by real climbers, they were placed by a reckless idiot (unless they have been replaced).  As mentioned they were very loose, dangerous, and placed extremely poorly. Very risky and the hangars were hardware store washers I could easily pull off with my bare hands. >  > Tony, don’t pay any attention to skifast. >  > He’s been trolling here for a long time and has never said anything useful.  He/she is no climber or canyoneer either.   He or she is here to troll looking to get a rise out of people and nothing more (meant for informational purposes to the unfamiliar, rather than to attack). >  > For those that want to see some history/clarification, see below:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/msearch?AT=skifast2112&AM=contains&pos=0&cnt=10
> Regardless of anyone’s opinion on bolts, read through the above and see all the “useful” information that he/she has provided to the canyoneering community. After reading through it, regardless of opinion on bolts, it’s pretty easy to make a decision on whether or not the person is worth listening to.  You decide. > Â
________________________________ > From: skifast2112 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. > Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? > Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
Tony
—
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Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
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When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
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RAM
Disagree Scott. So the guy doesn’t have a future in the diplomatic corp. No big. He is passionate. I wish he would rein in just a touch as to not come off as attacking, but love him expressing his views. If we all agreed, how boring would that be? 😉 I think he is a climber and canyoneer too, but not positive.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote:
The bolts placed at the last drop weren’t placed by real climbers, they were placed by a reckless idiot (unless they have been replaced).  As mentioned they were very loose, dangerous, and placed extremely poorly. Very risky and the hangars were hardware store washers I could easily pull off with my bare hands. >  > Tony, don’t pay any attention to skifast. >  > He’s been trolling here for a long time and has never said anything useful.  He/she is no climber or canyoneer either.   He or she is here to troll looking to get a rise out of people and nothing more (meant for informational purposes to the unfamiliar, rather than to attack). >  > For those that want to see some history/clarification, see below:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/msearch?AT=skifast2112&AM=contains&pos=0&cnt=10
> Regardless of anyone’s opinion on bolts, read through the above and see all the “useful” information that he/she has provided to the canyoneering community. After reading through it, regardless of opinion on bolts, it’s pretty easy to make a decision on whether or not the person is worth listening to.  You decide. > Â
________________________________ > From: skifast2112 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. > Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? > Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
Tony
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When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
>
scott patterson
The bolts placed at the last drop weren’t placed by real climbers, they were placed by a reckless idiot (unless they have been replaced).  As mentioned they were very loose, dangerous, and placed extremely poorly. Very risky and the hangars were hardware store washers I could easily pull off with my bare hands.  Tony, don’t pay any attention to skifast.  He’s been trolling here for a long time and has never said anything useful.  He/she is no climber or canyoneer either.   He or she is here to troll looking to get a rise out of people and nothing more (meant for informational purposes to the unfamiliar, rather than to attack).  For those that want to see some history/clarification, see below:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/msearch?AT=skifast2112&AM=contains&pos=0&cnt=10
Regardless of anyone’s opinion on bolts, read through the above and see all the “useful” information that he/she has provided to the canyoneering community. After reading through it, regardless of opinion on bolts, it’s pretty easy to make a decision on whether or not the person is worth listening to.  You decide. Â
________________________________ From: skifast2112 skifast2112@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:27 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Bolted Climbing Routes in Baptist and Upper Chute–Bolt removal Crew
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
> Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
> Tony
—
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
Jenny
Hey Tony, Please, pretty please, don’t stop injecting your humor or any comments here! It would be sort of like letting the terrorists win (if you get my drift)?!?! We should all celebrate that skifast2112 has some friends. Behind his nasty posting exterior, I have been told he is a reasonable guy. Who but a nice guy would be so compassionate toward friends that, as he says, have “IQs in the single digit range”? Tony, look at how inclusive he was trying to be for his pals in asking, “Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group.” He be a smart fella to make the jump from your comment to the assumption that you have such a group, eh?
Happy Hahahahalidays to you too, Tony. Heal and recover fully! Jenny
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tonyferdensi” wrote:
I am sorry you do not recognize sarcasm when you read it. I will not further inject humor into this chat group.
As for your personal attack on me, you obviously do not know me or my background. > Happy Holidays
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “skifast2112” wrote:
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group.
Why the F__ can you just not live and let live?
Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
> Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
> Tony
>
RAM
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Is ANY level of drilling too much for your sensibilities?
I can’t speak for ski fast, but I myself dislike many of the bolts but don’t feel the responsibility or privilege is mine to remove bolts.
If we all have the privilege to place bolts, wherever legal, then I would propose that we all have the privilege to remove bolts. When did these little pieces of metal become so instantly sacred? Why is removal rude and placing them not? Isn’t the goal to leave as little impact as possible?
>Complicated subject but it definitely becomes more than just the >question quantity of bolts (as you know). Does first descent of a >canyon include ultimate control of how people use all the various technical resources in the canyon? Hope not.
Ultimately one can keep control…for a time anyway. Its easy. Keep the canyon to yourself and a few friends. At least until others find it. Dilemma? Be generous and share and try to establish a local ethic, that is voluntary and unenforceable. OR……Keep secret and then when others find it, have no say. I like to share. I share less now and it brings me no joy that that is the case.
The “local ethic” and “first descent” concepts are so flawed and arrogant as it is;
As for local ethics….Its advocacy for a point of view. Its an attempt to influence. It is not binding. To lobby is not a dirty word.
As for 1st descents. Them Moqui steps keep showing up rather often in our remotest finds. LOL! Using “Integral” and “Recorded” in front of “First Descent” probably comes closer to the truth, but really it is just about going down and not knowing what is around the corner. Its the act of discovery that drives it for me.
If its related to the idea that these were put in by an “organization” than I would like to highlight that is pure speculation at this point. No real evidence to point any fingers yet. Baptist Draw is one of the “easiest” canyons in the Swell and likely sees major turnover in the number of different users in a single year.
And now that people are aware, its a matter of time before someone encounters folks on the sport climbs, the likely folks who bolted up the area. Question ensue. Then more dialogue will happen
> That was certainly a rude attack by Skifast though.
Nah Phillip. That is just Skifast. He always livens things up. But if I were him or one of his friends, I don’t know how proud or pleased I would be about him admitting this… “I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. See how fun he is? I would like to meet him sometime and maybe I can join the single digit club?….. that is if i don’t belong already, regularly rapping off of sand and water. 😉 Ram
>
phil
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Is ANY level of drilling too much for your sensibilities?
I can’t speak for ski fast, but I myself dislike many of the bolts but don’t feel the responsibility or privilege is mine to remove bolts. Complicated subject but it definitely becomes more than just the question quantity of bolts (as you know). Does first descent of a canyon include ultimate control of how people use all the various technical resources in the canyon? Hope not. The “local ethic” and “first descent” concepts are so flawed and arrogant as it is; I would hate to see that become influential outside our own sport.
Also it seems there may actually be legal issues about the placing of these bolts.
What would those be? Related to general bolting policy somewhere?
If its related to the idea that these were put in by an “organization” than I would like to highlight that is pure speculation at this point. No real evidence to point any fingers yet. Baptist Draw is one of the “easiest” canyons in the Swell and likely sees major turnover in the number of different users in a single year.
That was certainly a rude attack by Skifast though.
Phillip
RAM
Skifast, Skifast, Skifast! Tsk, tsk, tsk. Take a pill. Calm down. No one said they were coming in to remove these precious bolts. See his quote at the bottom? Just wondering was him. Its good to know, the world feels safer and predictable, that you have NO limit on your desire for INDUSTRIAL canyoneering. I think they should throw in a via ferrata (sp?) there too, as long as your there. 😉 Is ANY level of drilling too much for your sensibilities?
Also it seems there may actually be legal issues about the placing of these bolts. Don’t know, its worth looking into. Why don’t you tell the powers that be to “> Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? ” That should help us continue to have access to the wilds and win the support of land managers as such WONDERFUL stewards of the land.
“> Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? ” Again addressing your above comment…Does it hold true for you, if I decide to exercise my right to try and restore the area, as much as possible, to its natural state? Will you “live and let live?” then? Or does that only hold true for people with drills, hardware and the desire to impact environments?
I love and defend your right to express your opinion. Carry on! Ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “skifast2112” wrote:
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. > Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? > Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
Tony >
tonyferdensi
I am sorry you do not recognize sarcasm when you read it. I will not further inject humor into this chat group.
As for your personal attack on me, you obviously do not know me or my background. Happy Holidays
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “skifast2112” wrote:
Hey Tony I have some friends with IQs in the single digit range. Can they join your bolt chopping eco terror group. > Why the F__ can you just not live and let live? > Why not spend you energy bossing your wife around or yelling at your kids rather than worry about me or the sport climbing community?
Do I detect a bolt removal crew passing through sometime soon?…
Tony >