Numerous cautions have appeared on this group (mostly from me) regarding the use of light-weight/high strength hybrid ropes for canyoneering. The ropes canyoneers have been drawn to generally use Spectra or Kevlar fibers to increase strength and decrease weight. I have been using the BlueWater Canyon Pro almost exclusively the past two years for this reason.
We all love a lightweight/compact rope. However, people who use these ropes need to be aware of important shortcomings of these high performance fibers.
Spectra/Dyneema These fibers melt at a relatively low temperature, 147C. Spectra or Dyneema usually make up the core of the rope which is protected by either a nylon or polyester sheath so it is doubtful your scorching hot rap device will melt the rope, but it’s probably a good idea to at least be aware of this.
Aramid/Kevlar Although it resists high temperatures (Kevlar begins to break down around 427C) the fiber does not hold up well to repeated flexing. In fact, its strength is dramatically reduced after relatively few cycles. Kevlar is also very abrasive and when used in the sheath of a rope will wear through aluminum rappel devices more quickly than nylon or polyester.
Most importantly Neither of these fibers stretch worth a damn. This means they don’t absorb shock worth a damn either. Any bouncing or accidental dynamic loading could result in catastrophic anchor failure. Especially, when using some of the less than bomber anchors commonly found in Colorado Plateau canyons.
More Spectra caveats I see many canyoneers using a Spectra webbing daisy chain for their personal lanyard. I’ve seen them rigged both as a climber would (girth hitched to the harness and clipped in short through the appropriate loop) and as a double lanyard (clipped in close to the middle creating a short and long lanyard).
The climbers method is how a daisy chain was designed to be used and should only be statically loaded. This method can be dangerous to fall on. (As when you might need to briefly step above the anchor but then slip). Clipping directly into one of the loops and using the tails as a double lanyard is improper use and potentially very dangerous.
I recently viewed test data that showed catastrophic failure of Spectra fiber daisy chains at <1m drop. Yes, the daisy chain broke and dropped the load. The same test using nylon daisy chains broke some of the loops but did not result in catastrophic failure. Spectra fiber will not stretch to absorb the shock, nylon will.
Spectra and Kevlar fibers have their place but should not be used entirely as a nylon or polyester replacement without thorough understanding of their performance characteristics.
Spectra core ropes I will continue to use my Canyon Pro because it is very compact and light weight. I will however, be very careful not to bounce on it either when starting or during the rappel and will caution all who are with me to do the same.
Kevlar ropes Whether used in either the core or sheath, I don’t see any real value in using this fiber for canyoneering ropes. Commonly found small diameter “Kevlar” ropes on the market are designed as personal escape lines for fire fighters and are intended to be used only in emergencies and then retired.
Spectra webbing daisy chains I would encourage everyone out there currently using a Spectra webbing daisy chain as a lanyard to toss it back into your wall climbing gear box and replace it with a nylon web daisy chain or better yet a shock absorbing lanyard like the Petzl Spelegyca or a Purcell Prussic.
Be careful out there.
Charly
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > Tom does not think the tests show anything relevant, but Brian does.
Ek-strap-o-lay-shun…
I thought the comparison to nylon was interesting…
I think the revelance is that if you’re using spectra runners, daisies, lanyards (whatever), folks need to be aware that they are on kinda the equivalent of a wire rope, ie, not much in the way of shock/energy absorbsion. And that a nylon runner (etc) might afford a tad more protection in any kind of situation where you might be rapidly loading.
That said, spectra don’t soak up near as much water…
All testing requires some level of interpretation. I wouldn’t care to pony up to be a guinea pig for the type of testing they were doing. But, if nothing else, it reinforces that a feller shouldn’t fall whilst above an anchor that they’re tied directly into via a sling, etc. And that if you need to generate a bunch of force, a spectra sling would be better than a nylon one. Etc.
I’ve had some real hard daisy type falls directly onto pieces whilst aid climbing. I’d imagine, one of the reasons (besides my savy gear placement of course…) they didn’t pop, was that I was using a nylon adjustable daisy chain…
Anyhoo, sometimes its nice to have the odds stacked in your favor…
Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
Nothing wrong with using Spectra for slings, daisy chains and
lanyards. YMMV.
Tom
Have you seen any of the most recent issues of Rock and Ice? #137 > I think (and 136 too). They’ve been doing testing that more > simulates real life stuff. Ie, a climber in a harness > (Duane…sounds like he got banged up pretty good…high loads). > Anyhoo, their results would indicate your statement above to be > pretty false.
Worth a look.
Brian in SLC
Just read it. Same old same old. While Duane lobbed off on the quickdraw falls, he called uncle and tagged out to the steel weight for the other tests, such as those onto the daisy chain and onto full length slings. Gee, dropping a 165 lb weight 104″ onto a 52″ daisy chain broke it! You might be surprised, but I’m not.
Tests done with rigid weights can show significant things, but then again, they can be easily mis-read to represent the real world. They don’t.
It should be noted that quite a bit of what Duane is talking about in the Rock and Ice article is how daisy chains are commonly mis- used in aid climbing. In this case, climbers are looking at a true Factor 2 Fall through the air directly onto the daisy and the piece, usually without warning. No dispute from me that taking aid falls on daisys is a really bad thing.
Conclusion: well, Duane and Brian recommend against using Spectra Daisy chains for climbing situations, for safety reasons. Duane and Brian are smart guys, and are still alive (miraculously in Duane’s case). Tom recommends against using ANY daisy chain in canyoneering situations, for other reasons. Tom does not think the tests show anything relevant, but Brian does.
Your Mileage May Vary.
Tom
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Bo Beck” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Hank Moon” wrote:
Bo….
incohol – har! Just your friendly neighborhood pronaziation!
You know just a little Utah humor! I’m going hobicat selling on the > lake tonight… I hope I don’t get caught cause they might throw me > in jell! > Cheers > Bo
Gud thing you ain’t gone down ta the oshun so’s all them sill’s and well’s won’t get ya, come find out, mighta coulda done.
Shoulda did. O’ fer cute.
Sure do ‘preciate ya.
I likes me some colloqualisms…
Brian in SLC
Bo Beck
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Hank Moon” wrote:
Bo….
incohol – har! Just your friendly neighborhood pronaziation! >
You know just a little Utah humor! I’m going hobicat selling on the lake tonight… I hope I don’t get caught cause they might throw me in jell! Cheers Bo
Hank Moon
Bo….
incohol – har! Just your friendly neighborhood pronaziation!
——————— The information in this message and/or attachments is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee and may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you have received this e-mail in error and any use of it is prohibited. In such a case please notify the sender and kindly delete this message from your computer and network.
Thank you, Petzl America
Bo Beck
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Hank Moon” wrote:
That’s “Prusik”, not “prussic”, prusick, prussick or prisuck
And it’s pronounced “Proo-zik” not Pruh-sick
Thanks for the correction! Some thinkle may peep that I’m under the affluence of incohol!
Shane B.
>>That’s “Prusik”, not “prussic”, prusick, prussick or prisuck
Hank Moon
That’s “Prusik”, not “prussic”, prusick, prussick or prisuck
And it’s pronounced “Proo-zik” not Pruh-sick
——————— The information in this message and/or attachments is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee and may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you have received this e-mail in error and any use of it is prohibited. In such a case please notify the sender and kindly delete this message from your computer and network.
Thank you, Petzl America
Charly Oliver
Purcell Prussic’s are da bomb!
Charly —–Original Message—– From: Bo Beck [mailto:bobeck@outdooroutlet.com] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 2:48 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: caveats/Rope recommendations
How bout a purcell prussik system? I’ve been pushin’ ’em for a while; 6mm accessory cord tied as to make an adjustible “daisy”. Don’t have the specs in front of me, but lets say that 6mm accessory cord is 8kn, the weakest link being the single loop (girth hitched to the harness) doubled is 12kn minus 30 % at the knot = 8.4kn plus the fact that a prussik acts as a clutch which will absorb critical energy! Check it out, its worth looking at. Been using ’em for 7 years! Work great as an ascender setup, leaver sling (cheap), lightweight and fun to build to-boot, and did I mention cheap?
Bo Beck
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Bo Beck” wrote:
“Tom Jones” wrote:
> Nothing wrong with using Spectra for slings, daisy chains and
> lanyards. YMMV.
Tom
Have you seen any of the most recent issues of Rock and Ice? #137 > I
think (and 136 too). They’ve been doing testing that more > simulates
real life stuff. Ie, a climber in a harness (Duane…sounds like > he
got banged up pretty good…high loads). Anyhoo, their results
would indicate your statement above to be pretty false.
Worth a look.
Brian in SLC
How bout a purcell prussik system? I’ve been pushin’ ’em for a while; > 6mm accessory cord tied as to make an adjustible “daisy”. Don’t have > the specs in front of me, but lets say that 6mm accessory cord is > 8kn, the weakest link being the single loop (girth hitched to the > harness) doubled is 12kn minus 30 % at the knot = 8.4kn plus the fact > that a prussik acts as a clutch which will absorb critical energy! > Check it out, its worth looking at. Been using ’em for 7 years! Work > great as an ascender setup, leaver sling (cheap), lightweight and fun > to build to-boot, and did I mention cheap?
OOps I mean 8 kn doubled= 16kn-30%=11.2kn Bo
Bo Beck
“Tom Jones” wrote:
Nothing wrong with using Spectra for slings, daisy chains and
lanyards. YMMV.
Tom
Have you seen any of the most recent issues of Rock and Ice? #137 I > think (and 136 too). They’ve been doing testing that more simulates > real life stuff. Ie, a climber in a harness (Duane…sounds like he > got banged up pretty good…high loads). Anyhoo, their results > would indicate your statement above to be pretty false.
Worth a look.
Brian in SLC
How bout a purcell prussik system? I’ve been pushin’ ’em for a while; 6mm accessory cord tied as to make an adjustible “daisy”. Don’t have the specs in front of me, but lets say that 6mm accessory cord is 8kn, the weakest link being the single loop (girth hitched to the harness) doubled is 12kn minus 30 % at the knot = 8.4kn plus the fact that a prussik acts as a clutch which will absorb critical energy! Check it out, its worth looking at. Been using ’em for 7 years! Work great as an ascender setup, leaver sling (cheap), lightweight and fun to build to-boot, and did I mention cheap?
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > Nothing wrong with using Spectra for slings, daisy chains and > lanyards. YMMV.
Tom
Have you seen any of the most recent issues of Rock and Ice? #137 I think (and 136 too). They’ve been doing testing that more simulates real life stuff. Ie, a climber in a harness (Duane…sounds like he got banged up pretty good…high loads). Anyhoo, their results would indicate your statement above to be pretty false.
Worth a look.
Brian in SLC
Charly Oliver
Although it is true that laboratory tests are designed to reproduce a worst case scenario and only simulate real life situations, I think that saying this test “does not relate to real world at all” is inaccurate. I think it graphically demonstrates the difference in shock absorbing abilities of static (Spectra/Dyneema) and nylon daisy chains.
The daisy chain was never designed to catch falls. It was designed to clip in short when aid climbing or hanging at belays. I see people incorrectly using daisy chains as lanyards all the time. I am sure these people are blissfully unaware of the fact that daisy chains are not designed for this use and would be surprised and disappointed in the event of catastrophic failure. Because they lack energy absorbing ability, Spectra daisy chains only increase the risk factor.
Use the right tool for the job.
Charly
—–Original Message—– From: Tom Jones [mailto:tom@jrat.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 7:38 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: caveats/Rope recommendations
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “David Haavik” wrote: > > Good points. Spectra Daisy chains have always made me un easy. I > watched a test on a spectra sling with a breaking stregth of 22kn > break during a factor 1 fall (80kg mass droped 60cm on a 60cm > sling). A nylon sling with a 22kn breaking stregth will hold the > same drop. > > Dave >
When evaluating any lab test (or demonstration), you have to ask yourself how well it relates to real-world conditions. In this case, the test does not relate to the real world at all.
These tests are conducted with an 80 kg steel weight. Now call me silly, but even the buffest climber does not act like a steel weight. The human body, falling to the end of the lanyard, is a VERY dynamic device, being essentially a bag of water. A human body dropping that distance creates far, far less force than that steel weight. Think about it. The block of steel hits the end of the sling all at once – the human body hits the end in a globby sort of way.
It IS a fun demonstration. Takes advantage of one of the freak properties of the system. GEE, if EVERY part of the system is very static, you can generate really high loads with short drops of modest weights! So?
Nothing wrong with using Spectra for slings, daisy chains and lanyards. YMMV.
Tom
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Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > Another way to say it is, a steel weight dropping is not a good model for short climbing or canyoneering falls, because it is WAY too static. It does not simulate what happens in the real world.
Tom
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “David Haavik” yourself how well it relates to real-world conditions. In this > case, the test does not relate to the real world at all. >
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “David Haavik” wrote:
Good points. Spectra Daisy chains have always made me un easy. I > watched a test on a spectra sling with a breaking stregth of 22kn > break during a factor 1 fall (80kg mass droped 60cm on a 60cm > sling). A nylon sling with a 22kn breaking stregth will hold the > same drop.
Dave >
When evaluating any lab test (or demonstration), you have to ask yourself how well it relates to real-world conditions. In this case, the test does not relate to the real world at all.
These tests are conducted with an 80 kg steel weight. Now call me silly, but even the buffest climber does not act like a steel weight. The human body, falling to the end of the lanyard, is a VERY dynamic device, being essentially a bag of water. A human body dropping that distance creates far, far less force than that steel weight. Think about it. The block of steel hits the end of the sling all at once – the human body hits the end in a globby sort of way.
It IS a fun demonstration. Takes advantage of one of the freak properties of the system. GEE, if EVERY part of the system is very static, you can generate really high loads with short drops of modest weights! So?
Nothing wrong with using Spectra for slings, daisy chains and lanyards. YMMV.
Tom
David Haavik
Good points. Spectra Daisy chains have always made me un easy. I watched a test on a spectra sling with a breaking stregth of 22kn break during a factor 1 fall (80kg mass droped 60cm on a 60cm sling). A nylon sling with a 22kn breaking stregth will hold the same drop.
Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Charly Oliver” wrote: > Numerous cautions have appeared on this group (mostly from me) regarding the > use of light-weight/high strength hybrid ropes for canyoneering. The ropes > canyoneers have been drawn to generally use Spectra or Kevlar fibers to > increase strength and decrease weight. I have been using the BlueWater > Canyon Pro almost exclusively the past two years for this reason.
We all love a lightweight/compact rope. However, people who use these ropes > need to be aware of important shortcomings of these high performance fibers.
Spectra/Dyneema > These fibers melt at a relatively low temperature, 147C. Spectra or Dyneema > usually make up the core of the rope which is protected by either a nylon or > polyester sheath so it is doubtful your scorching hot rap device will melt > the rope, but it’s probably a good idea to at least be aware of this.
Aramid/Kevlar > Although it resists high temperatures (Kevlar begins to break down around > 427C) the fiber does not hold up well to repeated flexing. In fact, its > strength is dramatically reduced after relatively few cycles. Kevlar is also > very abrasive and when used in the sheath of a rope will wear through > aluminum rappel devices more quickly than nylon or polyester.
Most importantly > Neither of these fibers stretch worth a damn. This means they don’t absorb > shock worth a damn either. Any bouncing or accidental dynamic loading could > result in catastrophic anchor failure. Especially, when using some of the > less than bomber anchors commonly found in Colorado Plateau canyons.
More Spectra caveats > I see many canyoneers using a Spectra webbing daisy chain for their personal > lanyard. I’ve seen them rigged both as a climber would (girth hitched to the > harness and clipped in short through the appropriate loop) and as a double > lanyard (clipped in close to the middle creating a short and long lanyard).
The climbers method is how a daisy chain was designed to be used and should > only be statically loaded. This method can be dangerous to fall on. (As when > you might need to briefly step above the anchor but then slip). Clipping > directly into one of the loops and using the tails as a double lanyard is > improper use and potentially very dangerous.
I recently viewed test data that showed catastrophic failure of Spectra > fiber daisy chains at load. The same test using nylon daisy chains broke some of the loops but did > not result in catastrophic failure. Spectra fiber will not stretch to absorb > the shock, nylon will.
Spectra and Kevlar fibers have their place but should not be used entirely > as a nylon or polyester replacement without thorough understanding of their > performance characteristics.
Spectra core ropes > I will continue to use my Canyon Pro because it is very compact and light > weight. I will however, be very careful not to bounce on it either when > starting or during the rappel and will caution all who are with me to do the > same.
Kevlar ropes > Whether used in either the core or sheath, I don’t see any real value in > using this fiber for canyoneering ropes. Commonly found small diameter > “Kevlar” ropes on the market are designed as personal escape lines for fire > fighters and are intended to be used only in emergencies and then retired.
Spectra webbing daisy chains > I would encourage everyone out there currently using a Spectra webbing daisy > chain as a lanyard to toss it back into your wall climbing gear box and > replace it with a nylon web daisy chain or better yet a shock absorbing > lanyard like the Petzl Spelegyca or a Purcell Prussic.
Be careful out there.
Charly
>