I am pre packaging my lunches now, in preparation for the 10 day trip that I leave for tomorrow. This trick allows one to just grab a bag or two in the cold AM, rather than spending the time doing so with cold hands, everyday. One of several tricks. Packing the next days pack in the warmer early evening, for the next day too. I was remembering Koen telling us about the dozen or two canyons he still has scheduled this year.
Koen, do you move away from the wet canyons this time of year? It does get cold there, doesn’t it? Other consessions to the weather? Systems used? Are you doing multi day trips or do you return indoors after each foray?
We will do the occasional very wet canyon now, (most have some water) but they will be a couple of days apart, to allow drying of gear. I am also bringing doubles of everything that can get wet. But mostly dry and physical canyons, at lower elevations, with plenty of N-S facing canyons planned. Without wind and the sun out, while working out one stays quite toasty. Then all the food you want and finally hours of campfire time. A lot of excellent folks coming and going. Excited. TurkeyFest is here. More memories to make. R
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: >> What scares me is a layer of ice with nothing underneath… as > long as there’s water below I don’t mind too much (to get back on > the deck you can use your knife as a spike like ice-skaters do)
As long as it isn’t too deep. Sometimes hard to find your way back up to the hole. YIKES!
> but when you’re walking on a crust with a void underneath…
Saw some of that this week, but only a half foot of air below. Why would this happen? Seems like sometimes the surface freezes, with smaller surface area than the water occupied and the water below evaporates or something? Anyone know what happens here?
> No they just live in the area, all watercourses are state-owned in > most European countries – you’d have to stay in the water though > . But I think this one has no acces problems. > It’s not supposed to be a pretty canyon, it’s just one filled with hot > water.
After some of this weeks fun and games, sounds just fine 😉 R
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > I think I remember a horror story during the first days of this > group when a couple of guys trudged without neoprene through > a canyon filled with ice/water sludge – only to discover their shins > raw to the bone, gone unnoticed with the cold ? Anyone ?
That was our man Jud Eades. Sweems that the river ice dammed and multiple levels of freezing occured. Boogooloo just asked for a story so I will pull it up from the archives
From: “Jud Eades” judeades@msn.com> Subject: Buckskin Gulch
I have been lying in bed all day with my legs elevated trying to let the swelling go down. I was planning on giving a trip report tomorrow but Pete’s comment about lack of judgment motivated me to get my sorry butt out of bed.
So here’s the story, (I know some of you are sticklers on grammar and spelling so please forgive me I’m just typing away)
My buddy Kevin and I have done hundreds of canyons together. In the winter we like to take a break from backcountry skiing and about once a month we go descend a canyon. Although we have done hundreds of canyons we had never hiked Buckskin Gulch, but it has always been on our to-do list.
I recently talked to some guys that did Buckskin in the winter a few years ago and they told me how great it was. So I called the BLM on Thursday morning and asked them about the conditions. They said that there were a few pools of water in the “cesspool” area but you can walk around them and that the Paria is about ankle deep but could be knee deep in some spots. Some one had hiked it less than two weeks ago and had no problems. I gave them my credit card number for the permit and they mentioned they would leave the permit on the back of their info board.
Kevin and I packed up later that afternoon and headed south. We arrived at the White House Campground around 11:30 that night. Threw our bags out on the ground and crashed. Friday morning we woke about 7am ate breakfast, I ran over to the Paria River to check its depth and it was less than an inch deep (thought we would be in good shape), we found a good tree to lock our Mtn bikes to (shuttle), and then drove to the Wire Pass trailhead.
A little before 9am we were on our way. The canyon was unbelievable; those little tiny seeps in the canyon walls had formed huge icicles. When the sun hit the ice it lit the whole canyon up. Besides the Ice hanging from the walls the canyon was bone dry. After the rock fall we hit the seeps, they were frozen solid.
We made it to the campsite ½ mile above the confluence of the Paria in about 5 hours. We had originally planed on camping there. But because we had made such good time and had plenty of daylight we decided to finish the hike. About 100 yards from the confluence of the two canyons we hit water. The water was knee deep with about an inch of ice on it. It looked as though the pool of water only went to the confluence then ended at some muddy snow (So we thought). We decided to head for the muddy snow as long as the water never got above our knees. We broke the ice in front of us and pushed on. Once we got to the muddy snow we realized it was slush on top of the ice. We could now see up the Paria, and it looked like the ice ended shortly up the canyon. It was obvious that somewhere down the Paria there was an ice dam. Of course with our vast amounts of schooling we knew that the deepest part would be down canyon at the dam. And as long as we headed up canyon it wasn’t going to get any deeper. In fact it will probably be similar to Buckskin. Head a hundred or so yards up canyon and will be home free. Well the next 500 yards never got shallower it stayed a little over our knees. The canyon twisted and turned and we always keep in mind that we needed to have enough energy to make it back to buckskin if it continued the same or got worse.
After about ½ mile the Paria Canyon got narrow (5 or 6 feet wide) as we headed for it we went up to our chests in water. Oh Baby that will take your breath away! In the middle of the canyon the river had frozen 3 times as it got backed up. Each layer had about an inch of ice separating 12-18 inches of water. On top of all that sat this muddy snow. We had now busted through all three layers. By now we have been in the water for over a half an hour. We could not feel our feet or legs. We thought we were walking on the bottom of the river but the last 100 yards we were actually walking on the last layer of ice. The river got deeper up canyon. We were never in a panic, we keep our cool and decided to go back to Buckskin. (I’m still curious how much further the ice went). We were worried about our legs cramping up so we moved really fast towards buckskin. Because we had no feeling in our legs we couldn’t feel the first and second layers of ice as our shins and quads busted threw them. Once we made it to the dry ground in Buckskin we noticed our shins were hamburger. Kevin said, “Remind me to kick your ass for taking me down this easy canyon.”
Under the circumstances all we could do is laugh. We pride ourselves on being careful, and respecting the outdoors. I make a living educating people on respect and love for the outdoors. If we had even a little hunch that we were going to run into this we wouldn’t have done it. We both own dry suits and double thick wetsuits we left them at home because we were 100% sure that we wouldn’t need them. Hundreds of people do this canyon every winter with out them and have no problems.
We immediately started a fire. Striped down to dry off. We had dry tops and bottoms in our pack that we brought to sleep in, we put them on and our North Face 750 Down Summit Jackets (we carry these with us even in summer for emergencies) We dried out our BD Schoeller pants with the fire.
Even though we had sleeping bags and bivy sacks. We knew that sleeping in the freezing temperature in our state would most likely cause some major tissue damage. Kevin is a paramedic and I’m an EMT we went through all this training so we could make such unbelievable medical decisions such as this. haha. We both new we needed to keep moving and get to a hotel and soak our legs in lukewarm water. Our legs were in bad shape, and the evening temperatures dropped to 12 degrees. For those that aren’t familiar with Buckskin it is 13.5 miles back to the trailhead.
I had a satellite phone with me, I called my wife to let her know what had happened. I knew that if one of us got in bad shape we could call Kanab Search and Rescue and have them meet us at the middle trail. It crossed my mind as an easy way out of the situation. But we new we could make it out on our own. Calling search and rescue wasn’t necessary. About half way we cooked up some Jambalaya Rice and put some canned chicken in with it. It normally serves six, but was just right for the two of us. There was no moon so it was like being in a cave all you could see is what our headlamps illuminated. It took us about 6 hours to hike out. We got in the truck went to the White House Trailhead picked up our bikes and headed to the Shilo Inn for a warm bath and room.
Even though both of us got pretty beat up, we will be just fine. We actually had a good time. The canyon was literally unbelievable.
Jud
Koen
> it is thin enough to play ice breaker with your shins. What I haven’t > found and what scares me is ice thick enough to hold you, over deep > water, but will it always hold you? A lot like fun…but different. >
I think I remember a horror story during the first days of this group when a couple of guys trudged without neoprene through a canyon filled with ice/water sludge – only to discover their shins raw to the bone, gone unnoticed with the cold ? Anyone ?
What scares me is a layer of ice with nothing underneath… as long as there’s water below I don’t mind too much (to get back on the deck you can use your knife as a spike like ice-skaters do) but when you’re walking on a crust with a void underneath…
> I’ll try to go do that hotwater-canyon this winter. A friend of mine
his parents live in that area. I’ll see if I can get myself invited.
Is it private property? >
No they just live in the area, all watercourses are state-owned in most European countries – you’d have to stay in the water though . But I think this one has no acces problems. It’s not supposed to be a pretty canyon, it’s just one filled with hot water.
Koen
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> Noooo ! To eat you have to stop, get your pack off your back, > open it, get out and open whatever waterproof containers hold > the fodder, eat, drink, realise you have to take a leak, do it or feel > terribly uncomfortable the rest of the descent, wait for the others > to do the same, repack the food, the packs etc etc.
No, no, no. That is what bars are for. In the pocket, top pouch. Eat on the run…and besides, I like you, don’t believe in Giardia, so what if a few pieces of dried fruit or jerky gets damp? Stop? NEVER!!
> By that time (15 minutes) you’re frozen into a solid block of ice. > Eat good and tasty stuff before you get into the canyon: > slowburning fats, sausage, cheese, a can of sardines… not the > fastburning & expensive energy crap !!
Do both, but drop the 15 minutes…that cheese and all of it sound goooood
> Who cares about getting chilly from drying sweat when one has > just swam through a pothole covered by a thin layer of ice ?!?
Water can only get so cold. A breeze on ground level, now your talking business. Koen, those layers of ice can be a lot of fun. Depending on the thickness…..you can have the break through stuff just as you weight it. Or the break through stuff that is just a little to thick the keep breaking in front of you, so that you have to slide plates of broken ice up on top of each other to clear room to continue…or when it is thin enough to play ice breaker with your shins. What I haven’t found and what scares me is ice thick enough to hold you, over deep water, but will it always hold you? A lot like fun…but different.
> I’ll try to go do that hotwater-canyon this winter. A friend of mine > his parents live in that area. I’ll see if I can get myself invited.
Is it private property?
> They retired, bought a vineyard in the south of France and live off > their own wine and the oysters off the nearby mediterranean ! > See if I can get myself invited before going to the canyon… > sipping wine (chilled in the snow on the sides) when blisfully > soaking in a bubbly hot tub…. ahum, canyon… slurping a few > dozen of oysters… sigh… I might have to look into a different > model of canyon knife though to get at those oysters !
And your passing up ice covered canyons for this? Need a partner? R
Koen
To keep relatively warm in a winter canyon a few very strange
basic rules apply: get enough insulation and keep moving ;-).
Yup. To your list I add “eat like heck.”
Noooo ! To eat you have to stop, get your pack off your back, open it, get out and open whatever waterproof containers hold the fodder, eat, drink, realise you have to take a leak, do it or feel terribly uncomfortable the rest of the descent, wait for the others to do the same, repack the food, the packs etc etc.
By that time (15 minutes) you’re frozen into a solid block of ice. Eat good and tasty stuff before you get into the canyon: slowburning fats, sausage, cheese, a can of sardines… not the fastburning & expensive energy crap !!
True indeed, although staying under the sweating level is better. > Drying sweat….Brrrr. >
Who cares about getting chilly from drying sweat when one has just swam through a pothole covered by a thin layer of ice ?!?
I’ll try to go do that hotwater-canyon this winter. A friend of mine his parents live in that area. I’ll see if I can get myself invited. They retired, bought a vineyard in the south of France and live off their own wine and the oysters off the nearby mediterranean !
See if I can get myself invited before going to the canyon… sipping wine (chilled in the snow on the sides) when blisfully soaking in a bubbly hot tub…. ahum, canyon… slurping a few dozen of oysters… sigh… I might have to look into a different model of canyon knife though to get at those oysters !
Koen
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
I don’t know about the CP but around here there are some > canyons which never seem cold. They’re so deeply cut that they > seem like a cave: cool in summer, “warm” in winter.
I have noticed that in the narrowest spots, some degree of consistancy in temperature. Water never seems to freeze in the darkest spots. I have also noted air inversions in canyons, in the winter, where you get 10-20 degrees colder in the fianl 50 feet down to the drainage bottom, especially in Zion
To keep relatively warm in a winter canyon a few very strange > basic rules apply: get enough insulation and keep moving ;-).
Yup. To your list I add “eat like heck.”
Enough insulation means at least 5 mm neoprene for someone > who moves around in t-shirt in winter. Another layer for most folk. > This can be neoprene or some kind of thermal synthetic > underwear (quite effective even under a wetsuit and more flexible > then 7 or more mm of neoprene). Semi-dry suits are pure > heaven. I still don’t like drysuits, too fragile and too expensive for > my taste. If anyone knows of -300 $ “canyonprotected” drysuits I’d > be interested to hear about them.
I don’t care for drysuits that much either, except in certain cases. I hate the feeling of the way the thing hangs on me. I feel like a schlump in it. Surprisingly, I have found the drysuits to be pretty rugged. And even when they leak, they still do the job. But I prefer the fail safe aspects of the wet suit
> To keep moving means choosing your canyon and your team > very well. The CP should be perfect for that, canyons where a lot > of stemming is involved are ideal, if you can keep moving you’ll > exit in a sweat .
True indeed, although staying under the sweating level is better. Drying sweat….Brrrr.
An anecdote: one of my favourite winter canyons is the “barranco > del Infierno” in the Catalan Pyrenees. I’ve been in there right after > I had to scrape a thick layer of ice from the car’s windshield. > Decked out in normal “summer” gear without gloves, perfectly at > ease – and this is an aquatic canyon ! > Last spring I was there again, but after the very dry winter the > canyon was dry… bummer. But the second rappel drops into a > cave section and below we could hear water running out of a > source.
Very cool
> When we dropped into the pool at the bottom we found it > lukewarm, a hotwater spring ! When there’s cold water > running from above you don’t notice it, but this canyon has its > own heating system, nice. > I know of one other canyon in the French Pyrenees which is > supposed to have 40°C water but I haven’t done that one yet. > That should be nice: snow on the sides, steaming water up to > your chin .
Sign me up. That would be a treat. Ram
Koen
Koen, do you move away from the wet canyons this time of year? It does > get cold there, doesn’t it? Other consessions to the weather? Systems > used? Are you doing multi day trips or do you return indoors after > each foray? >
I don’t know about the CP but around here there are some canyons which never seem cold. They’re so deeply cut that they seem like a cave: cool in summer, “warm” in winter.
To keep relatively warm in a winter canyon a few very strange basic rules apply: get enough insulation and keep moving ;-).
Enough insulation means at least 5 mm neoprene for someone who moves around in t-shirt in winter. Another layer for most folk. This can be neoprene or some kind of thermal synthetic underwear (quite effective even under a wetsuit and more flexible then 7 or more mm of neoprene). Semi-dry suits are pure heaven. I still don’t like drysuits, too fragile and too expensive for my taste. If anyone knows of -300 $ “canyonprotected” drysuits I’d be interested to hear about them.
Bruce: I accidentaly deleted your mail about wetsuits, could you send it to me again please ?
To keep moving means choosing your canyon and your team very well. The CP should be perfect for that, canyons where a lot of stemming is involved are ideal, if you can keep moving you’ll exit in a sweat .
An anecdote: one of my favourite winter canyons is the “barranco del Infierno” in the Catalan Pyrenees. I’ve been in there right after I had to scrape a thick layer of ice from the car’s windshield. Decked out in normal “summer” gear without gloves, perfectly at ease – and this is an aquatic canyon ! Last spring I was there again, but after the very dry winter the canyon was dry… bummer. But the second rappel drops into a cave section and below we could hear water running out of a source. When we dropped into the pool at the bottom we found it lukewarm, a hotwater spring ! When there’s cold water running from above you don’t notice it, but this canyon has its own heating system, nice. I know of one other canyon in the French Pyrenees which is supposed to have 40°C water but I haven’t done that one yet. That should be nice: snow on the sides, steaming water up to your chin .
Koen