I don’t believe that there is one magic descender for all uses. For example…
ATC- good for belaying and rappelling, small and light. Disadvantages- can’t take larger diameter static rope and doesn’t allow for control of friction on longer drops.
Figure-eight- can be used for belaying and rappelling and is fairly smooth compared to the ATC. Disadvantages- possible to Girth Hitch, tends to twist the rope and once again, doesn’t allow for control of friction on longer drops (50 meters+). These problems can be corrected using some types of Figure-eights (Huit, Rescue-eight). Also, the stainless steel versions will last considerably longer than the Aluminum ones ( I took one into a cave that lasted one trip).
Rack- offers greater friction, provides the ability to change friction once you have begun to rappel which allows you to do longer drops more safely, doesn’t twist the rope, accepts double ropes, can be used for rescue situations and it doesn’t require you to open your locking carabiner to disconnect (making it nice for emergencies). The main disadvantage is that it somewhat more complex than conventional descenders and tends to be heavier and bulkier. There is a couple of different versions of a Mini-rack available that eliminates these problems but these will not accept double ropes (used one in Lech for a week and it worked great).
Over all, I think for canyoneering a stainless steel Figure-eight would be my choice. Should I need to drop anything over 50 meters, I would definitely carry the extra weight of a rack (a couple of ounces) to ensure my safety.
Todd
Aaron Smith
Hank
Yeah, my first thought was that an 8 used as an ascender would be a tough chore, its also a great reason to hang from the rafters in my garage tonight while I figure it out. And the added knowledge will hopefully solve a problem or two if need be. Thanks Hank
Aaron
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hmoon@petzl.com
Aaron Please see the new file (8-blok.jpg) just uploaded to the canyons page for how to rig an 8 to ascend. You may find the “canyon” rig at: http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/tech/canyonrappel.html Note: using an 8 to ascend is pretty hard work under the best circumstances (on a low-angle slab). In free hang, it can be very difficult and good for only short distances. hank “Aaron Smith” 05/17/01 04:11 PM Please respond to canyons To: canyons@yahoogroups.com cc: Subject: Re: [canyons group] Descenders Two question from a beginner ! How do you rig an 8 to ascend and also how do you “canyon rig” an 8 I would love to know more uses of the eight because I love using it, however I have only used the 8, atc, and a rack. Of which I have never rappeled more than 40m. Aaron >From: canyonz >Reply-To: canyons@yahoogroups.com >To: canyons@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [canyons group] Descenders >Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:12:25 +1200 > >Another good thing about fig.8: it can be used as an ascender, and >transfered to a descender in about a second. Also, we often use it in >the ‘Vertaco’ technique when descending on single rope, where it is >setup as a normal eight, and the rope is clipped back in the carabiner. >More friction than the normal canyoning technique, and girth hitch is >impossible. On double rope we don’t use the Vertaco, but other >techniques. Never had a problem with twists either because we adjust the >rope to just reach the water, and our current rope has had about 700 >rappels with no obvious kinks in it. Using a rope bag further prevents >the risks of twists. Never had problems rappelling 70m + by using extra >krabs as brakes. I guess it could be a problem with overhanging 100 m + >raps, but the 8 is so versatile there is always a solution. > >Julien > > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association http://www.canyoneering.net Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options. DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Aaron Smith
Two question from a beginner !
How do you rig an 8 to ascend and also how do you “canyon rig” an 8 I would love to know more uses of the eight because I love using it, however I have only used the 8, atc, and a rack. Of which I have never rappeled more than 40m.
Aaron
>From: canyonz info@canyonz.co.nz
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [canyons group] Descenders >Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:12:25 +1200
Another good thing about fig.8: it can be used as an ascender, and >transfered to a descender in about a second. Also, we often use it in >the ‘Vertaco’ technique when descending on single rope, where it is >setup as a normal eight, and the rope is clipped back in the carabiner. >More friction than the normal canyoning technique, and girth hitch is >impossible. On double rope we don’t use the Vertaco, but other >techniques. Never had a problem with twists either because we adjust the >rope to just reach the water, and our current rope has had about 700 >rappels with no obvious kinks in it. Using a rope bag further prevents >the risks of twists. Never had problems rappelling 70m + by using extra >krabs as brakes. I guess it could be a problem with overhanging 100 m + >raps, but the 8 is so versatile there is always a solution.
Julien
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rcornia@visto.com
How do you use an 8 as an ascender? That’s a technique I would like to add to my bag of tricks.
Ryan
— In canyons@y…, canyonz wrote: > Another good thing about fig.8: it can be used as an ascender, and > transfered to a descender in about a second. Also, we often use it in > the ‘Vertaco’ technique when descending on single rope, where it is > setup as a normal eight, and the rope is clipped back in the carabiner. > More friction than the normal canyoning technique, and girth hitch is > impossible. On double rope we don’t use the Vertaco, but other > techniques. Never had a problem with twists either because we adjust the > rope to just reach the water, and our current rope has had about 700 > rappels with no obvious kinks in it. Using a rope bag further prevents > the risks of twists. Never had problems rappelling 70m + by using extra > krabs as brakes. I guess it could be a problem with overhanging 100 m + > raps, but the 8 is so versatile there is always a solution.
Julien
canyonz
Another good thing about fig.8: it can be used as an ascender, and transfered to a descender in about a second. Also, we often use it in the ‘Vertaco’ technique when descending on single rope, where it is setup as a normal eight, and the rope is clipped back in the carabiner. More friction than the normal canyoning technique, and girth hitch is impossible. On double rope we don’t use the Vertaco, but other techniques. Never had a problem with twists either because we adjust the rope to just reach the water, and our current rope has had about 700 rappels with no obvious kinks in it. Using a rope bag further prevents the risks of twists. Never had problems rappelling 70m + by using extra krabs as brakes. I guess it could be a problem with overhanging 100 m + raps, but the 8 is so versatile there is always a solution.
Julien
hmoon@petzl.com
Oh yeah, important to mention that the friction setting chosen at the beginning of the drop cannot be easily changed mid-drop. hank Other fig. 8 points: girth hitch possibility can be eliminated by “canyon” rig. Friction can be changed by using one of 4 different rigs: 1) classic; 2) canyon 3) double; 4) classic inverse (bight through small hole). As mentioned before, twisting is no big deal unless sufficient rope is left to bunch up at bottom; also, twisting happens with any device if the user rotates in free space. Twisted rope can be eliminated with an 8 by using a carabiner clipped into top of 8 between the ropes.
hmoon@petzl.com
Other fig. 8 points: girth hitch possibility can be eliminated by “canyon” rig. Friction can be changed by using one of 4 different rigs: 1) classic; 2) canyon 3) double; 4) classic inverse (bight through small hole). As mentioned before, twisting is no big deal unless sufficient rope is left to bunch up at bottom; also, twisting happens with any device if the user rotates in free space. Twisted rope can be eliminated with an 8 by using a carabiner clipped into top of 8 between the ropes. >Figure-eight- can be used for belaying and rappelling and is fairly smooth compared to the ATC. Disadvantages- possible to Girth Hitch, tends to twist the rope >and once again, doesn’t allow for control of friction on longer drops (50 meters+). These problems can be corrected using some types of Figure-eights (Huit, >Rescue-eight). Also, the stainless steel versions will last considerably longer than the Aluminum ones ( I took one into a cave that lasted one trip). hank