Let’s not forget that even though Powell is filling up with silt, if nothing else it is stopping most of this silt from flowing downstream and filling up Mead. You take out Glen Canyon Dam and all that silt goes down to start filling up Lake Mead. I’ve got to think that for this fact alone, politically, Lake Powell will never get drained because it would shorten the life span of Lake Mead and endanger the water supply of all the lower states. The second you tell California that it’s going to have to cut it’s water consumption by x % (what, 10%, 20% more?), any movement to decomission the Glen Canyon Dam will be dead, dead, dead. Think people get addicted to drugs, how about being addicted to drinking water, taking showers, washing cars, swimming pools, lawns, etc.?
So for these “drain Lake Powell” zealots, well, I guess everyone’s got to have a hobby. Seems like tilting at windmills to me.
– Kris Nosack
Gail Hoskisson
on 6/18/04 12:09 PM, JoeB at joe@citrusmilo.com wrote:
> Gail – thanks for sharing and thanks to your friends for the effort > for putting those pages together. Those are great pictures, and the > commentary and pre-dam comparison shots were quite effective. -joe
You are most welcome. I’ll pass your comments on to my friend Chris who put it all together.
Gail
James Schnepel
Beautiful pictures! Thanks for the link.
jim
Gail Hoskisson moabgail@frontiernet.net> wrote: on 6/18/04 10:24 AM, Mark Lewis at mwlewis27@comcast.net wrote:
> I’d be up for that; mighty interested in those canyons myself…
Mark
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, James Schnepel > Politics and facts about draining Lake Powell aside, I’d like to > explore some of these newly exposed canyons before the water rises. > Anyone interested in working together to research and plan some trips?
I went with a group of friends for several days this April to explore some of the reemerging canyons. We explored from Lake Foul using motorboats to get to the canyons. Frankly, we expected to spend a lot more time hiking and in the canyons that we did. It took a lot of time to get from one canyon to another by water. Every one of us left with mixed feelings about the excursion, but were still glad that we did it.
One member of our group put together some photographs (before the dam and now) on this website.
http://rosebud.moenkopi.net/pics/utah0404/powell/powell1.html
Gail
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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JoeB
Gail – thanks for sharing and thanks to your friends for the effort for putting those pages together. Those are great pictures, and the commentary and pre-dam comparison shots were quite effective. -joe
http://rosebud.moenkopi.net/pics/utah0404/powell/powell1.html
> Gail
Gail Hoskisson
on 6/18/04 10:24 AM, Mark Lewis at mwlewis27@comcast.net wrote:
> I’d be up for that; mighty interested in those canyons myself…
Mark
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, James Schnepel > Politics and facts about draining Lake Powell aside, I’d like to > explore some of these newly exposed canyons before the water rises. > Anyone interested in working together to research and plan some trips?
I went with a group of friends for several days this April to explore some of the reemerging canyons. We explored from Lake Foul using motorboats to get to the canyons. Frankly, we expected to spend a lot more time hiking and in the canyons that we did. It took a lot of time to get from one canyon to another by water. Every one of us left with mixed feelings about the excursion, but were still glad that we did it.
One member of our group put together some photographs (before the dam and now) on this website.
http://rosebud.moenkopi.net/pics/utah0404/powell/powell1.html
Gail
Mark Lewis
I’d be up for that; mighty interested in those canyons myself…
Mark
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, James Schnepel wrote: > Politics and facts about draining Lake Powell aside, I’d like to explore some of these newly exposed canyons before the water rises. Anyone interested in working together to research and plan some trips?
Also, any thoughts about obtaining maps that don’t show the reservoir?
Jim
> > > Mail Address AutoComplete – You start. We finish.
Shane Burrows
>>Also, any thoughts about obtaining maps that don’t show the reservoir?
Shane Burrows
>>I was curious about many of the points members of the group have brought up regarding this issue and it prompted me to share some of the group’s discussion with the Executive Director of the Glen Canyon Institute.
Shane Burrows
>>Or three more years of drought at the current level. The reservoir will be at dead pool in 2007 unless it rains and snows at normal levels again.
James Schnepel
Politics and facts about draining Lake Powell aside, I’d like to explore some of these newly exposed canyons before the water rises. Anyone interested in working together to research and plan some trips?
Also, any thoughts about obtaining maps that don’t show the reservoir?
Jim
Mail Address AutoComplete – You start. We finish.
James Schnepel
I was curious about many of the points members of the group have brought up regarding this issue and it prompted me to share some of the group’s discussion with the Executive Director of the Glen Canyon Institute. Following, is his reply… (It is long, but, it didn’t feel right to try to edit it.) Jim
The Glen Canyon issue is by far the most misunderstood issue in the West; after reading some of the correspondence that is going back and forth on this message board, it is obvious that this is true. The issue is incredibly complex and often people love to get tied up in little details instead of looking at the big picture; this is often a struggle for those of us working within the issue. The reality is this: “Lake” Powell reservoir is the most destructive and least useful reservoir ever built.
Lake Powell Reservoir was justified to Congress in the 1950s as the perfect solution to uncertainty of water supply for the growing Southwest. It was to be the “silver bulletâ€, providing an insurance policy for the Upper Basin States’ water delivery responsibility, regulating floods, and being a “cash register†hydropower dam to pay for building dozens of other dams upstream in the Colorado’s watershed. After forty years, it is clear that Lake Powell Reservoir is far from the perfect solution to water supply problems in the West. It wastes significant amounts of water annually to evaporation (nearly 1 Million acre-feet annually), generates an insignificant amount of hydropower, is unsafe, has all but destroyed the biological resources in Glen and Grand Canyons, while imposing significant long-term costs on the public (due to rapid sedimentation). However, the most devastating impact of Lake Powell’s development has been the false sense of water security to both the Upper and Lower Basin States, which has resulted in unsustainable growth and development. The idea of a centralized water and electricity system has simply proven to be unsustainable.
The current drought in the Southwest, which is not unprecedented in recent history, has drawn the water levels of Lake Powell down by more than 56%, exposing hundreds of miles of “lost†side canyons and more than forty miles of the Colorado River itself. In addition, the record low water levels have shown that Glen Canyon and its side canyons possess an incredible capacity for rapid restoration. It is evident that Lake Powell reservoir is not an acceptable solution to the region’s water resource problems. Long-term climate models predict changing hydrologic dynamics throughout the watershed, decreasing the reservoir’s storage capacity—as there may not be sufficient water in the river to refill it. Glen Canyon Dam began life as a political decision. It exists today as a monument to the political tradeoffs of the 1950’s. The Colorado River is a national resource, supported and subsidized by all Americans. Its’ purpose and future should be debated on a national level, not in the office of developers. This is the big picture.
There are numerous falsehoods floating around the message board on this issue and I don’t have time to go through and debunk every single one, however, I will touch on the most important issues. The dam was built for water storage and delivery purposes, not hydropower or recreation. The Burea of Reclamation’s own flow data shows that Lake Powell ( and the nearly 1 million acrefeet of water lost to evaporation and bank seepage), makes it more difficult for the Upper Basin to meet it’s water delivery requirement to the Lower Basin. It is simply counterproductive for this purpose, and this is why it was built!
When you talk about power generation, Glen Canyon Dam generates less than 1% of the power on the Western Power Grid, and the Western grid always keeps a 20% excess. It generates 451 average megawatts, which is negligible in comparison to the power plants in the region.The capacity of GCD will never be used because the Grand Canyon PRotection Act of 1992 was passed to help save the Grand Canyon ecosystem from harmful peaking releases.) A big chunk of the power from GCD goes at a heavily subsidized rate to irrigation cooperatives. Hunter and Huntington plants down by Price generate 750 and 1150 avg. megawatts; and they are tiny. Navajo Generating Station would only need to extend its intakes to a free flowing river (or to the 237 dead pool elevation in the mean time) if the reservoir was drained. Restoring Glen Canyon does not mean destroying Navajo Generating Station; that is one of the many falsehoods that the Friends of Lake Powell love to hammer on–it’s just not true. The fact is that power generation is a non issue when it comes to what will ultimately happen to Glen Canyon, as is recreation; it’s all about water.
Glen Canyon Institute Perspective: We believe, based on the facts and operational outcomes that the basin wide approach to water management for the Colorado River has failed. This 40-year experiment has failed to achieve the objectives used to justify the dam to the Congress and the American public. We believe there are alternative approaches to water management that will provide a sustainable approach to balancing water use and environmental protection in the Colorado River Basin. Glen Canyon Institute can become the catalyst for change to begin the process of restoring the Canyon. I’d be happy to schedule a slideshow presentation and answer questions in the SLC area if the interest is there for it.
Christopher Peterson Executive Director Glen Canyon Institute 450 S. 900 E. Ste. 160 Salt Lake City, UT 84102 Phone: 801.363.4450 Fax: 801.363.4451 chris@glencanyon.org http://www.glencanyon.org
Mail is new and improved – Check it out!
Shane Burrows
>>They sure drowned a lot of dead indians in burial sites and thousands of barely documented archaeological artifacts relating to their culture?
Gail Hoskisson
on 6/16/04 6:54 PM, Shane Burrows at shane@sisna.com wrote:
> Below that elevation > a vortrex would form in the penstocks. So…. I don’t see the lake > dropping below this elevation unless several other drastic things > happen first…. like pigs flying and hell freezing over…..
Or three more years of drought at the current level. The reservoir will be at dead pool in 2007 unless it rains and snows at normal levels again.
Gail
James Schnepel
They sure drowned a lot of dead indians in burial sites and thousands of barely documented archaeological artifacts relating to their culture? Jim
KSlater khslists@mindspring.com> wrote:
So… Who else has heard that there was a whole tribe of indians that were drowned when Lake Powell was filled? I heard that ORVers kept them corralled in the canyon.
Kurt
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KSlater
> —–Original Message—– > From: Shane Burrows [mailto:shane@sisna.com] > … I’m not arguing for or against draining Lake Powell. I’m just giving > you guys some of the facts. … > Shane >
Shane, I’m pretty sure you broke the rules of environmental debate by using facts. If I’m not mistaken you are only allowed anecdotal evidence from friends of friends and things you remember reading one time.
So… Who else has heard that there was a whole tribe of indians that were drowned when Lake Powell was filled? I heard that ORVers kept them corralled in the canyon.
Kurt
Shane Burrows
>>At a certain critical height (I can’t recall the level)
James Schnepel
Shane Burrows shane@sisna.com> wrote:
While current sedimentation may be growing at less than 1 cm per year at the dam, much higher levels are accumulating farther back in the reservoir. Sediments fall from water to the lake/reservoir bed as the river flow slows down. Thus, most of the sediment is going to drop out well before it reaches the dam. But, this will not last forever because as sediments fill up the upper reaches of the lake they will continue to build areas closer to the dam at a faster, and increasing, rate. Thus, the dam will see a progressively growing sedimentary over the years to come.
At a certain critical height (I can’t recall the level) the sedimentation will overcome the water inlets that feed the generators. It is then theorized that the system will have to be decomissioned or risk damage from sediments and larger debris that will then be working toward the dam.
Jim
>>Rolling brown-outs and drastically increased power prices?! Sheesh. That piddly little dam doesnt produce THAT much power for the grid. You must be thinking of the Enron Dam!
charlybldr@aol.com
Use of “bottom only” garners an extra 5 points.
Be careful. The creation of a “deadwoman” anchor is a felony.
Charly
—–Original Message—– From: s_mestdagh@yahoo.com [mailto:s_mestdagh@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:25 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Drain Powell (was SUWA)
— charlybldr@aol.com wrote: > Using a bikini as an anchor is worth 10 style points. > > Charly
Be forewarned: If the bikini is used “in situ”, it’s probably a good idea to equalize top and bottom portions. In some situations this need be done very carefully, in some situations not. This dicey anchor can be made more stable by the use of the deadwoman anchor. This is itself dangerous to anchor maker though. In some situations, the bikini anchor might lead to prolonged time in a canyon if the “in situ” object does not want to wear the bikini. In extreme conditions, rescue may be required for the anchon maker and in situ object due to prolonged exertion. s
==== find me online on AIM: smestdag
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When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
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Shane Burrows
>>Shane, could you clarify something here: is the 3,000 MW of the Navajo plant from water power only or combined with coal fired generation?