What is everyone doing for drinking water solutions in extended canyons where it isnt practical?
I’ve been bringing a compact gravity filter: http://www.rei.com/product/778043/sawyer-water-filter-system-4-liter
it seems to be a good solution because it weighs almost nothing and is very small. The only problem is that you have to keep the filter dry such that is not contaminated.
I filtered out of an Imlay pothole in September and it tasted nice and fresh. I’m sure I
Anybody else have a good solution?
aj.outdoors
Others got sick, but I don’t think any others were confirmed, just suspected. Symptoms all happened a day or so after we were out; so maybe 3-4 days after.
I do carry some prescription stuff for backcountry travel. Could have treated Jen, but we were out, so better to go to the docs to confirm/identify; especially by how sick she was. Wasn’t standard Giardisis symptoms for her; was coming out both ends…
I agree; depending on the trip and location, you should be able to drink and still get out. However, anything like Jen had in the backcountry could turn deadly as dehydration would be a real issue… (and frankly, it’s not all too safe or pleasant out of the backcountry, either.)
My steripen also has the little LED light. My main issue was that little LED light was showing green, but the UV light was not working. Thus, it was the worst possible combination; it said it was fine, but it didn’t even turn the UV light on… (I confirmed this again after I got home, in a dark room…)
Yep, I agree on your synopsis for failure; and am basing my reasoning on the fact that two different pens failed on their first backcountry trip… Again, glad it’s working for you…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dan” wrote:
bummer about jen. obviously, in this case it was confirmed, unfortunately it is almost impossible to confirm the source that caused it. did anyone else on the trip get it, in your original post you mentioned multiple people ended up ill. they were confirmed as well? what was timeline for the onset of symptoms for the group? that would help confirm if it came from the same source, which doesn’t necessarily mean it came from the water. (also, it’s not a knock on jen’s hygiene, it very well could’ve been YOUR hygiene that got her sick… har har har)
also, giardia typically doesn’t show symptoms for at least 3 days after ingestion, generally closer to a week, and sometimes up to 25 days later. and while uncomfortable, most giardia symptoms are fairly acute and not much more than a frequently occurring low-grade diarrhea, and it’s easily treated once out of the backcountry (you could even carry a prescription for emergency backcountry travel if you truly were concerned or are prone to GI illnesses, you can get them preemptively at health clinics easy enough). so even in an emergency where you couldn’t filter, you could still risk drinking the “bad” water and have a nice window of time to get out of the backcountry with almost no risk.
that said, i certainly WOULD NOT recommend relying on a steripen if the water was cloudy or silty, which would seem to be highly likely in halls creek, and many other canyoneering destinations. obviously, UV is less than effective in anything but clean, clear water. with a group trip, it makes no sense not to carry multiple redundant treatment options if this is a concern. one person carry a steripen, one person carry aqua-mira, and one person carry iodine or other tabs. cumulatively, still weighs less than a pump, and will cover every possible scenario. but my biggest worry in canyon country would be the silty water. definitely need a plan to solve that possibility. either alum or some sort of settling bags to decant would be necessary.
also, the steripen model i have experience with has a red light or green light to let you know if it worked properly. green is good, red is bad. pretty simple, as it’s very hard to see the actual UV light, especially inside a nalgene, or on a bright sunlit day.
i definitely understand the concerns about electronic failure, and i wouldn’t pretend to believe it was 100 percent reliable. it’s not. but every water treatment system can fail. aquamira containers can be punctured or leak. steripens break. ceramic filters crack. mylar bags tear. gravity and squeeze filters clog and can be tough to backflush. platypus bags rip. and almost every pump i’ve ever seen on a trip ends up giving up the ghost somehow. really, the least likely to fail is probably tabs, but they are generally the most offensive tasting.
like i said before, there is likely no magic bullet for all situations. all you can do is weigh your tolerance for risk against the particular scenario and the possible consequences…
– d
Had to make the scary choice of, do we stay overnight, running our tablet supply down to where we likely wouldn’t have enough to get out; and hope that the AZ crew doesn’t run into car trouble, have second thoughts about Cricket, etc. Or do we hike out now, likely have enough tablets (but might even be short for that) and scrap the entire trip? >
nat_smale
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dan” wrote:
bummer about jen. obviously, in this case it was confirmed, unfortunately it is almost impossible to confirm the source that caused it. did anyone else on the trip get it, in your original post you mentioned multiple people ended up ill. they were confirmed as well? what was timeline for the onset of symptoms for the group? that would help confirm if it came from the same source, which doesn’t necessarily mean it came from the water. (also, it’s not a knock on jen’s hygiene, it very well could’ve been YOUR hygiene that got her sick… har har har) >
Interesting discussion about the steripen. My wife and I have using this exclusively for a few years now, without any troubles and find it great. We’ve never liked filters, as they always seem to take a lot of time (at least the smaller ones) and frequently clog. Steripens are so quick and don’t leave the bad taste that iodine does. Tablets are so light though, that we always carry a couple of bottles as back up (enough to easily cover the whole trip if necessary). If the source is spring water or clean looking pothole water we may not treat at all.
Nat
Mike Schasch
I’ve used the Squeeze from summer until now. I like it so much better than any other filter system I’ve used. The bags, if not treated with extreme care do break. I have not had any issues with them clogging. I’ve also been on the lookout for Evernew water carry bags. They fit the sawyer squeeze and are just as burly as the platypus.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dan” wrote:
i forgot that i’ve been using the sawyer quite a abit this year. it’s pretty good – with one substantial flaw. the mylar bags are too fragile – i’ve blown apart two of them.
Dan
bummer about jen. obviously, in this case it was confirmed, unfortunately it is almost impossible to confirm the source that caused it. did anyone else on the trip get it, in your original post you mentioned multiple people ended up ill. they were confirmed as well? what was timeline for the onset of symptoms for the group? that would help confirm if it came from the same source, which doesn’t necessarily mean it came from the water. (also, it’s not a knock on jen’s hygiene, it very well could’ve been YOUR hygiene that got her sick… har har har)
also, giardia typically doesn’t show symptoms for at least 3 days after ingestion, generally closer to a week, and sometimes up to 25 days later. and while uncomfortable, most giardia symptoms are fairly acute and not much more than a frequently occurring low-grade diarrhea, and it’s easily treated once out of the backcountry (you could even carry a prescription for emergency backcountry travel if you truly were concerned or are prone to GI illnesses, you can get them preemptively at health clinics easy enough). so even in an emergency where you couldn’t filter, you could still risk drinking the “bad” water and have a nice window of time to get out of the backcountry with almost no risk.
that said, i certainly WOULD NOT recommend relying on a steripen if the water was cloudy or silty, which would seem to be highly likely in halls creek, and many other canyoneering destinations. obviously, UV is less than effective in anything but clean, clear water. with a group trip, it makes no sense not to carry multiple redundant treatment options if this is a concern. one person carry a steripen, one person carry aqua-mira, and one person carry iodine or other tabs. cumulatively, still weighs less than a pump, and will cover every possible scenario. but my biggest worry in canyon country would be the silty water. definitely need a plan to solve that possibility. either alum or some sort of settling bags to decant would be necessary.
also, the steripen model i have experience with has a red light or green light to let you know if it worked properly. green is good, red is bad. pretty simple, as it’s very hard to see the actual UV light, especially inside a nalgene, or on a bright sunlit day.
i definitely understand the concerns about electronic failure, and i wouldn’t pretend to believe it was 100 percent reliable. it’s not. but every water treatment system can fail. aquamira containers can be punctured or leak. steripens break. ceramic filters crack. mylar bags tear. gravity and squeeze filters clog and can be tough to backflush. platypus bags rip. and almost every pump i’ve ever seen on a trip ends up giving up the ghost somehow. really, the least likely to fail is probably tabs, but they are generally the most offensive tasting.
like i said before, there is likely no magic bullet for all situations. all you can do is weigh your tolerance for risk against the particular scenario and the possible consequences…
– d
> Had to make the scary choice of, do we stay overnight, running our tablet supply down to where we likely wouldn’t have enough to get out; and hope that the AZ crew doesn’t run into car trouble, have second thoughts about Cricket, etc. Or do we hike out now, likely have enough tablets (but might even be short for that) and scrap the entire trip?
Dan
drops only take 5 minutes to mix, but you have to wait for the water to mix for 30 minutes.
i forgot that i’ve been using the sawyer quite a abit this year. it’s pretty good – with one substantial flaw. the mylar bags are too fragile – i’ve blown apart two of them.
the hollow fiber filters have been around for a long time, in various forms. the other issue with them is if they freeze they can be compromised. and from my experience, they also clog very easily, and are not super easy to maintain in the field. so for extended trips, i’m not too keen on them.
but on group trips where there are more than one filter system, i like them. i often carry the mylar bags just for around camp water. pretty slick setup overall.
– d
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tomtrenga” wrote:
That Sawyer filter is new technology that, as soon as everyone realizes, will make pump filters obsolete.
It uses hollow fiber tubes developed for the medical industry. Benefits vs. pumps:
* No cartridge to replace or clog, can clean out with backwashing, but will be needed much less frequently than with cartridge filters.
* Filters to a smaller absolute particle size
* Smaller and lighter
* No more pumping. Sawyer makes different models, gravity filter or squeeze from a bottle or bag
In a 30 year backpacking career I usually haven’t bothered to purify/filter water. It’s not as scary as people think with good water source selection. As Dan said, the much bigger danger is from poor hygiene. But given the number or dead animals I’ve seen in canyon pothole water I’d definitely want to treat it somehow.
In the past with a sketchy water source I’d used Aqua Mira, very light and effective, but you need to mix drops and wait half an hour or so.
Now I’ve got the Sawyer Squeeze model and it’s my preferred method.
Steripens are light, fast, and won’t clog. They also kill viruses which filtering can’t do without additional chemical treatment. But I’m nervous about relying on electronics for filtration. Batteries, impact damage, etc. >
tomtrenga
That Sawyer filter is new technology that, as soon as everyone realizes, will make pump filters obsolete.
It uses hollow fiber tubes developed for the medical industry. Benefits vs. pumps:
* No cartridge to replace or clog, can clean out with backwashing, but will be needed much less frequently than with cartridge filters.
* Filters to a smaller absolute particle size
* Smaller and lighter
* No more pumping. Sawyer makes different models, gravity filter or squeeze from a bottle or bag
In a 30 year backpacking career I usually haven’t bothered to purify/filter water. It’s not as scary as people think with good water source selection. As Dan said, the much bigger danger is from poor hygiene. But given the number or dead animals I’ve seen in canyon pothole water I’d definitely want to treat it somehow.
In the past with a sketchy water source I’d used Aqua Mira, very light and effective, but you need to mix drops and wait half an hour or so.
Now I’ve got the Sawyer Squeeze model and it’s my preferred method.
Steripens are light, fast, and won’t clog. They also kill viruses which filtering can’t do without additional chemical treatment. But I’m nervous about relying on electronics for filtration. Batteries, impact damage, etc.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Erik” wrote:
What is everyone doing for drinking water solutions in extended canyons where it isnt practical?
I’ve been bringing a compact gravity filter: http://www.rei.com/product/778043/sawyer-water-filter-system-4-liter
> it seems to be a good solution because it weighs almost nothing and is very small. The only problem is that you have to keep the filter dry such that is not contaminated.
I filtered out of an Imlay pothole in September and it tasted nice and fresh. I’m sure I
Anybody else have a good solution? >
aj.outdoors
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dan” wrote:
short answer – steripen if weight and bulk are concerns. aquamira > if you are worried about steripen failure or want redundancy. we > use steripens pretty much exclusively for the extended GC trips, > and they’ve worked perfect.
Glad it works for you. Like I said, I’m never using them again. Choose the tool that’s right for you…
> however, i’m not sure there is anything that is 100 percent > bulletproof. each system has it’s pros and cons. i’d love to hear > the details of this steripen failure… where did it happen at? > what do you mean “didn’t work?” like it wouldn’t turn on? or you > actually saw the light and ran the cycle properly and you still > believe people got giardia? if the light is on, it’s working.
Not necessarily IMHO. The first pen failure happened deep in the Escalante drainage. Picked Steri-Pen because of weight. Light didn’t come on. Had enough backup tablets to get out, but lost a planned day. Tested again after I got back home with new batteries. Still no light. Exchanged it for a brand new one.
Most recent time, it was out in Halls Creek. We were around Happy Dog, when the light didn’t work (at least, I couldn’t see any light when the light was in a nalgene, even tried putting it in a insulator to block out outside light.) Might have had enough tablets to get out; but we were supposed to be meeting the rest of our group coming in from Arizona that would likely have a filter or some other water purification device.
Had to make the scary choice of, do we stay overnight, running our tablet supply down to where we likely wouldn’t have enough to get out; and hope that the AZ crew doesn’t run into car trouble, have second thoughts about Cricket, etc. Or do we hike out now, likely have enough tablets (but might even be short for that) and scrap the entire trip?
We decided to take a gamble, scrap the canyon plans for Happy Dog, but wait for the other guys to come in and hopefully tag off their filter. That night, I tried the steri-pen again, and it was dim and flickering (don’t know if it was like that earlier, as it was bright sunlight out.) I tried the good old technique of american percussive maintenance (whacked it a couple times); and it seemed to come back to life – but exhibited some occasional flickering.
Seeing as how we might not have even had enough tablets to get out, I saw this as an opportunity, and went to the water coming out of Happy Dog (as it was WAY better than the Halls Creek water) and waved the magic wand in as many liters as we had containers for. To be safe, I treated each one three times (to hopefully reduce any chance for Giardia.)
We drank that water that night, and some the next day. The AZ crew did meet us at the Cricket/Poe camp the next day, and we tagged on their water filter from there.
To be fair, we then used a pump filter, and got water from Halls Creek which had much more Beaver activity; so could have possibly come from that.
Regardless, after the trip, Jen got really sick. I mean REALLY sick. The doc did a test, and confirmed Giardisis.
The Giardisis had a possibility of coming from other places, sure, I’ll buy that. But the simple fact for me, is that the ONLY two times that I took a Steri-Pen into the backcountry, they stopped working. Both times, putting me in an uncomfortable spot. Shortening my trip on one, and creating the possibility for a situation that could have been very bad. No more Steri-Pen in the backcountry for me, thank you.
> generally, i am a skeptic of backcountry giardia, it’s far more > common for a group to get sick from fecal-oral pathways than from > bad water.
Possible, but doubtful to me. Jen’s sanitary/hygiene habits are WAY better than mine. I’m guessing my immune system was just a bit stronger, from playing in swamps growing up and all the wild things I’ve eaten and drank in my many years of travels. I did have some mild stomach issues after I returned, but nothing serious enough for me to even warrant going to get tested…
> giardia simply isn’t that common. it’s almost completely > non-existent in the backcountry, except in areas with cattle or > domestic livestock. you are far more likely to get sick from bad > hygiene than you are from bad water. there are dozens of sources > online you can reference this stuff against. but, it seems like > for whatever reason, if there is any sort of illness in the > backcountry, people just assume it’s from bad water, and therefore > must be giardia.
Was confirmed with a lab test. Not assuming it.
> http://adirondoc.com/publications/Giardiasis_1995.pdf
> http://pweb.jps.net/~prichins/giardia.htm
> that said, i still generally treat my water in the desert, less so > in the mountains. in 4 weeks in the sierra in 2010, i never treated > once. i have friends who swear there has never been reported cases > in the grand canyon, and they drink pretty much anything > unfiltered. again, with no illness. (i realize that is completely > anecdotal, but most claims of giardia are as well, very rarely do > people get stool tests or treatment).
Jen got both.
> i do have friends who get ill from drinking water that is highly > mineralized, however. but that’s a different thing entirely.
personally, i’m a big fan of the steripen, been using it for a few > years now, and i’d consider it’s reliability as high or higher than > any pump i’ve ever dealt with. it’s fast, easy, and doesn’t change > the taste. i also really like aquamira, but some people don’t > like the taste. but it’s about as foolproof and easy as you can > get.
Obviously, I liked the concept since I tried two of them. But two failures out of two trips, and one confirmed case of Giardisis changed my mind. You are welcome to choose whatever method you want.
> i have basically given up on pumps entirely now. they are bulky, > heavy, and far more prone to failure and clogging than any other > option i’ve ever used. i hate fiddling with them in the > backcountry, it’s the least fun part of the trip. the only thing > they can do better than other options is make the water taste > better. and that rarely bothers me.
Different experience cause different choices. My only trips with pump failures were completely understandable (ex: was on a trip where someone used the filter for silty Escalante water, not knowing that we had a water bag and planned to let the silt settle overnight.) We had to do maintenance that time, but also backup tabs.
> in a case like LCR water, i might concede and take a pump, simply > because the mineral content (i think it’s mainly calcium > carbonate?). but that’s a pretty rare water source, and i can’t > really find anything that conclusively says a filter can get it > out. some people seem to pump it and drink it fine, others say to > avoid even that as the minerals make you get the squirts.
in places where water has a lot of silt, i still use the steripen, > but i decant the water or use alum (common on river trips in GC). > not sure how effective this strategy would be on LCR water. > actually, i’m not 100 percent sure that pumps can get it all out > either since you would think the salts would be in solution.
I’m pretty certain they wouldn’t. I’d probably just iodine it and call it good. (That was our plan on the Big and Salt canyon trip; but we lucked out and ran into some researchers with a helicopter who took extra water for us down to the river.)
> and he odds of having pump issues down there are high. ceramic > makes sense there – but i would be nervous of the damaging the > filter.
so yeah – not sure there is a magic bullet. or if we really even > need one.
Glad to know some folks are having good luck with a Steri-Pen. Maybe if I hear of more, I’ll reconsider in the future. Right now though, failures are still too fresh… (and I know more people with Steri-Pen failures than I know with successes like yours…)
– d
Dan
short answer – steripen if weight and bulk are concerns. aquamira if you are worried about steripen failure or want redundancy. we use steripens pretty much exclusively for the extended GC trips, and they’ve worked perfect.
however, i’m not sure there is anything that is 100 percent bulletproof. each system has it’s pros and cons. i’d love to hear the details of this steripen failure… where did it happen at? what do you mean “didn’t work?” like it wouldn’t turn on? or you actually saw the light and ran the cycle properly and you still believe people got giardia? if the light is on, it’s working.
generally, i am a skeptic of backcountry giardia, it’s far more common for a group to get sick from fecal-oral pathways than from bad water. giardia simply isn’t that common. it’s almost completely non-existent in the backcountry, except in areas with cattle or domestic livestock. you are far more likely to get sick from bad hygiene than you are from bad water. there are dozens of sources online you can reference this stuff against. but, it seems like for whatever reason, if there is any sort of illness in the backcountry, people just assume it’s from bad water, and therefore must be giardia.
http://adirondoc.com/publications/Giardiasis_1995.pdf
http://pweb.jps.net/~prichins/giardia.htm
that said, i still generally treat my water in the desert, less so in the mountains. in 4 weeks in the sierra in 2010, i never treated once. i have friends who swear there has never been reported cases in the grand canyon, and they drink pretty much anything unfiltered. again, with no illness. (i realize that is completely anecdotal, but most claims of giardia are as well, very rarely do people get stool tests or treatment). i do have friends who get ill from drinking water that is highly mineralized, however. but that’s a different thing entirely.
personally, i’m a big fan of the steripen, been using it for a few years now, and i’d consider it’s reliability as high or higher than any pump i’ve ever dealt with. it’s fast, easy, and doesn’t change the taste. i also really like aquamira, but some people don’t like the taste. but it’s about as foolproof and easy as you can get.
i have basically given up on pumps entirely now. they are bulky, heavy, and far more prone to failure and clogging than any other option i’ve ever used. i hate fiddling with them in the backcountry, it’s the least fun part of the trip. the only thing they can do better than other options is make the water taste better. and that rarely bothers me.
in a case like LCR water, i might concede and take a pump, simply because the mineral content (i think it’s mainly calcium carbonate?). but that’s a pretty rare water source, and i can’t really find anything that conclusively says a filter can get it out. some people seem to pump it and drink it fine, others say to avoid even that as the minerals make you get the squirts.
in places where water has a lot of silt, i still use the steripen, but i decant the water or use alum (common on river trips in GC). not sure how effective this strategy would be on LCR water. actually, i’m not 100 percent sure that pumps can get it all out either since you would think the salts would be in solution. and the odds of having pump issues down there are high. ceramic makes sense there – but i would be nervous of the damaging the filter.
so yeah – not sure there is a magic bullet. or if we really even need one.
– d
> The only thing I’ll never use again in the backcountry is the Steri-Pen. We’ve had two instances where two different pens didn’t work – either properly, or at all, out in a backcountry setting. Including one where the (seemingly working at the time) “magic wand” didn’t prevent Giardiasis for a couple of our members.
Luckily, the times it didn’t work at all, I had some iodine tabs; but in one case, we were deep in the backcountry, and didn’t have enough to actually finish our intended trip (and possibly not enough to even hike out, depending on the temps…)
vapormanb
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Erik” wrote:
What is everyone doing for drinking water solutions in extended canyons where it isnt practical?
I’ve been bringing a compact gravity filter: http://www.rei.com/product/778043/sawyer-water-filter-system-4-liter
> it seems to be a good solution because it weighs almost nothing and is very small. The only problem is that you have to keep the filter dry such that is not contaminated.
I filtered out of an Imlay pothole in September and it tasted nice and fresh. I’m sure I
Anybody else have a good solution? >
I’ve had pretty good results using Life Straws when doing a canyon with plenty of water and will only pack 1-2L of water instead of 3-4L. It’s quick & easy, I hang it from my shoulder strap, and great for grabbing quick sips while waiting at a rappel or swimming thru pools. There’s many different styles on the market, but I use this one the most since it’s quite durable and carry a smaller straw for emergencies. =)
http://www.basspro.com/LifeStraw-Personal-Water-Filter/product/12061210011934/?hvarAID=shopping_googleproductextensions&om_mmc=shopping_googleproductextensions
Brian
aj.outdoors
Depends on how big the group is, and how long the trip is. I prefer pump filters for the volume they can produce and the results I’ve had over the years – which were very good. Never gotten sick on any trip we’ve used a pump.
I’ve used one pump filter (with iodine or chlorine tabs as a backup) for bigger groups (4-6) and more extended trips. Have used two (or more) pump filters for longer backpacking trips with more people (I usually do around one filter per 4-ish people; and always make sure we have some sort of backup – either at least two pumps, or one pump and iodine/chlorine tabs.)
If I’m trying to go really light, I’ll just use tabs, and use a handkerchief over the top of the bottle when filling to filter out some of the goodies.
The only thing I’ll never use again in the backcountry is the Steri-Pen. We’ve had two instances where two different pens didn’t work – either properly, or at all, out in a backcountry setting. Including one where the (seemingly working at the time) “magic wand” didn’t prevent Giardiasis for a couple of our members.
Luckily, the times it didn’t work at all, I had some iodine tabs; but in one case, we were deep in the backcountry, and didn’t have enough to actually finish our intended trip (and possibly not enough to even hike out, depending on the temps…)
My 2 cents…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Erik” wrote:
What is everyone doing for drinking water solutions in extended canyons where it isnt practical?
I’ve been bringing a compact gravity filter: http://www.rei.com/product/778043/sawyer-water-filter-system-4-liter
> it seems to be a good solution because it weighs almost nothing and is very small. The only problem is that you have to keep the filter dry such that is not contaminated.
I filtered out of an Imlay pothole in September and it tasted nice and fresh. I’m sure I
Anybody else have a good solution? >
rickinlo
Not that you shouldn’t try to keep it dry, but I always thought that it was kind of silly to be too worried about that. I mean, you probably drink or inhale more water swimming and jumping into potholes than from a few drops that get on there. So I think you’d need to be severely unlucky to get sick from that. I suppose it could happen though.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Erik” wrote:
The only problem is that you have to keep the filter dry such that is not contaminated.