Wonderful stuff! It used the same subject name of nearly 10 year old post by one of the best Dave Black
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/2916
ome food for thought for pothole puzzle-solvers:
After a near-death experience in a keeper hole in a swimmer Mae West slot on Powell a couple of years back, I worked on some ideas for a couple of problems. The first was finding a suitable tossed anchor that could be thrown in to very high cracks and very narrow or twisted cracks that a tossed pack or even a throw bag would have trouble penetrating. The solution for this was a simple 5-ounce baseball (hardball). I drilled a hole straight through it and tied a loop through it, knotted behind a washer on one end. I got excellent penetration with it, and even with the round shape it manages to catch on something more often than not. With an 8mm line stacked on the ground I’ve been able to get an accurate 34-foot toss. I get over 50 feet when it’s tossed in a tight butterfly-style hand coil. A 7mm line and/or a heavier ball (maybe a LaCrosse ball?) would probably get more distance. I can hang from and even hop on the baseball line, and it takes the weight without any distortion or damage.
I also resurrected an auto-haul extraction system I had improvised for exiting bombbay squeeze-tube entrances in desert caves (it’s written up in one of the NSS journals in 1998, sorry I can’t tell you which one). I pre-rigged the baseball with the autohaul using a 7mm line. Even with the weight of the tripled 7mm I can get a 25-foot toss into a high or narrow crack. Once the baseball is anchored, the autohaul is hooked to my harness and I can haul myself up a short, blank less-than-vertical pothole wall (a theoretical 2:1 hauling system. Actually it’s not anywhere near that efficient, but it’s quick and it’s much easier than just hand-over-hand.)The autohaul sucks on an overhang, though, but it would certainly be possible to use ascenders on a single line from the baseball.
It’s worked for me a few times, and I’d rather screw around with it than drill my way out.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones”
From time to time, the question comes up: how DO people get out of those darn keeper potholes, anyway???
A Brief Primer – and a plea to the readership to add suggestions and stories of things that work and don’t work:
Let me first divide potholes into two situations: wet potholes, with enough water to increase difficulty; and dry potholes, where one can stand comfortably at the bottom and do things, and the clock is not ticking more than usual.
Dry/Dryish potholes first. A hierarchy of techniques, to be used progressively:
1. Partner assist is the first technique to use. With good footing, two people can often lift (crane) one lighter person up the wall to the full extension of their hands (on feet). > 2. Rearranging the Landscape: if there is sufficient sand and/or rocks around, sometimes they can be piled up at the bottom of the exit – though this often is a lot of work for not very much gain. If the partner lift ends up 2-3 inches short, it might be worth pursuing. > 3. Next is probably going for a throw. If the throw is not far, often using your partner’s pack will work just fine. Remove expensive breakables from the pack. Tie a rope securely to it, and toss it up there, over the edge. You might not want to let it fall too far on the other side. Pull on the rope, and see what you get, as far as resistance. Sometimes it will catch on an edge; sometimes it is just counter-balanced. For the latter, the shape of the neck makes a big difference. Now with a rope up over the edge, plus a boost, and pulling on the rope with your hands might get you up over the lip. It might not take pulling on the rope very hard, just enough to get up to the good holds. > 4. Next up is probably a bigger, heavier throw, and using rope-ascending tools to climb the rope to the good holds. > 4A. Throwing from the bottom of the potholes is often not very effective. It helps to do the throws from the rappel into the pothole. On this particular pothole (2nd keeper in Neon), it is easy enough to stem out over the keeper pothole and gently plop a sand-filled Potshot on the down-canyon side of the lip. > 4B. Partner’s packs don’t toss that well; so there are bags made for that called a Pot Shot. > 4C. Sometimes the throw is long and the stance awkward, in which case, figure out the heaviest Pot Shot you can do the throw with. Sometimes you might need to throw more than one Pot Shot.
Those are the main tools. They can be used in many different ways.
Wet Potholes create additional problems as, when the escaper is swimming, the clock is ticking on hypothermia; and partner assists are difficult to use. So, in addition to the general line of thought above, we can add:
5. using flotation: > 5a. first stage is to use your pack as a flotation device (might involve blowing up your drybag for more float; and pre-planning to bring a larger drybag or some other things to help out). First Try: straddle the pack with your legs to get your body up 1-2 feet higher, so you can reach the good holds. > 5b. second stage is to use your pack and a swimming assist. Have your partner swim vigorously to hold the pack against the wall, while you climb up on it. Close but no cigar? Clip a couple of packs tightly together to form a better “raft”. > 6. or just do the throw and climb the rope.
If none of these things work, you CAN go nuclear! In this case, that means drilling holes with a hand-rock-drill, and putting hooks in them. Essentially aid-climbing (bat hooks in this case) to get out of the pothole. Many people consider this a ‘taint’: drilling holes in the canyon is not cool.
Sufficient?
Tom >
aj.outdoors
Bill,
Makes me nervous using handled ascenders (i.e. sharp points) on that thin of cord; but I can’t say I’ve used/tested it before nor know of any studies. (but good of you to test prior to using.) Just doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. I HAVE however used prussik cord doing the same thing; so similar, but without the points…
One thing, in case you didn’t know. You can actually get a stronger paracord; which will hold 1000 lbs. (I’ve seen it called Category 10 or Type V before. Here’s one place to get it: http://www.paragear.com/templates/parachutes.asp?group=32&parent=193&level=2 )
You likely will have to order it online, as it’s not as common as the standard / type III 550 stuff, but it’s available. (That’s what I use, and I figure doesn’t hurt to have a little extra strength…)
Hope it helps, A.J.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, WB wrote:
> For those of us who never were any good at baseball you can throw several smaller items and sum them together. I have used 3 separate lines of paracord (the real 550 stuff only please, spend the money for your life) to throw small items and then used a handled Petzel ascender to ascend on the three strands.
20 lbs. of weight over the lip plus rope friction can sometimes be enough in sandstone. If you have a soft landing it is amazing what you can get away with. Don’t use sharp items to ballast with. If the whole thing comes back over the lip you don’t want to use something excessively hazardous.
I have tested the 3 cords on my patio. Using the same setup I’ve shockloaded it with a 1 foot drop and about 190 lbs. with no tearing or apparent damage to the cord. I wasn’t willing to risk my body for science any higher as I didn’t have a soft landing.
Tom, I’d reorder the list (4A) to first try to pre-rig the escape from above if it looks bad before you even get into the pothole.
-Bill >
WB
For those of us who never were any good at baseball you can throw several smaller items and sum them together. I have used 3 separate lines of paracord (the real 550 stuff only please, spend the money for your life) to throw small items and then used a handled Petzel ascender to ascend on the three strands.
20 lbs. of weight over the lip plus rope friction can sometimes be enough in sandstone. If you have a soft landing it is amazing what you can get away with. Don’t use sharp items to ballast with. If the whole thing comes back over the lip you don’t want to use something excessively hazardous.
I have tested the 3 cords on my patio. Using the same setup I’ve shockloaded it with a 1 foot drop and about 190 lbs. with no tearing or apparent damage to the cord. I wasn’t willing to risk my body for science any higher as I didn’t have a soft landing.
Tom, I’d reorder the list (4A) to first try to pre-rig the escape from above if it looks bad before you even get into the pothole.
-Bill
RAM
We were once struggling with a pothole on the Glen. The water was to the upcanyon lip, just beyond a keeper that even Ed Sampson (famed climber) couldn’t get out of. There was no feature downcanyon to toss and catch. We tossed Hank Moon’s metolious pack and it floated on the edge of the pothole beyond the keeper. We then threw one of Tom’s Kolob’s over the top, with ballast and it sank in the water, over the top of and just beyond the Metolious pack, essentially creating an artificial lip where nature provided none. Worked wonderfully. Ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rick” wrote:
one idea I came up with, and have used successfuly a few times, when there are issues with the weight of the thrown pack over the rim vis a vis the weight of the ascending canyoneer, (absent a dwarf to send up first) is to insert into the line to the pack a piece of omnisling in a position to be resting on the saddle. the thicker and wider webbing of the sling grips the rock like a mother, significantly better than just the rope tied onto the pack, and can be the difference between it holding enough to make it up, instead of blowing under the weight of the ascender.
rick
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
From time to time, the question comes up: how DO people get out of those darn keeper potholes, anyway???
A Brief Primer – and a plea to the readership to add suggestions and stories of things that work and don’t work: >
Rick
one idea I came up with, and have used successfuly a few times, when there are issues with the weight of the thrown pack over the rim vis a vis the weight of the ascending canyoneer, (absent a dwarf to send up first) is to insert into the line to the pack a piece of omnisling in a position to be resting on the saddle. the thicker and wider webbing of the sling grips the rock like a mother, significantly better than just the rope tied onto the pack, and can be the difference between it holding enough to make it up, instead of blowing under the weight of the ascender.
rick
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
From time to time, the question comes up: how DO people get out of those darn keeper potholes, anyway???
A Brief Primer – and a plea to the readership to add suggestions and stories of things that work and don’t work:
stefan
yes! this is something i’ve been planning to add to canyon tales. great stuff!!
stefan
On May 7, 2012, at 12:16 AM, RAM wrote:
> Wonderful stuff! It used the same subject name of nearly 10 year old post by one of the best Dave Black
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/2916
> ome food for thought for pothole puzzle-solvers:
After a near-death experience in a keeper hole in a > swimmer Mae West slot on Powell a couple of years > back, I worked on some ideas for a couple of problems. > The first was finding a suitable tossed anchor that > could be thrown in to very high cracks and very narrow > or twisted cracks that a tossed pack or even a throw > bag would have trouble penetrating. The solution for > this was a simple 5-ounce baseball (hardball). I > drilled a hole straight through it and tied a loop > through it, knotted behind a washer on one end. I got > excellent penetration with it, and even with the round > shape it manages to catch on something more often than > not. With an 8mm line stacked on the ground I’ve been > able to get an accurate 34-foot toss. I get over 50 > feet when it’s tossed in a tight butterfly-style hand > coil. A 7mm line and/or a heavier ball (maybe a > LaCrosse ball?) would probably get more distance. I > can hang from and even hop on the baseball line, and > it takes the weight without any distortion or damage.
I also resurrected an auto-haul extraction system I > had improvised for exiting bombbay squeeze-tube > entrances in desert caves (it’s written up in one of > the NSS journals in 1998, sorry I can’t tell you which > one). I pre-rigged the baseball with the autohaul > using a 7mm line. Even with the weight of the tripled > 7mm I can get a 25-foot toss into a high or narrow > crack. Once the baseball is anchored, the autohaul is > hooked to my harness and I can haul myself up a short, > blank less-than-vertical pothole wall (a theoretical > 2:1 hauling system. Actually it’s not anywhere near > that efficient, but it’s quick and it’s much easier > than just hand-over-hand.)The autohaul sucks on an > overhang, though, but it would certainly be possible > to use ascenders on a single line from the baseball.
It’s worked for me a few times, and I’d rather screw > around with it than drill my way out.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote: >
> From time to time, the question comes up: how DO people get out of those darn keeper potholes, anyway??? >
> A Brief Primer – and a plea to the readership to add suggestions and stories of things that work and don’t work: >
> Let me first divide potholes into two situations: wet potholes, with enough water to increase difficulty; and dry potholes, where one can stand comfortably at the bottom and do things, and the clock is not ticking more than usual. >
> Dry/Dryish potholes first. A hierarchy of techniques, to be used progressively: >
> 1. Partner assist is the first technique to use. With good footing, two people can often lift (crane) one lighter person up the wall to the full extension of their hands (on feet). >> 2. Rearranging the Landscape: if there is sufficient sand and/or rocks around, sometimes they can be piled up at the bottom of the exit – though this often is a lot of work for not very much gain. If the partner lift ends up 2-3 inches short, it might be worth pursuing. >> 3. Next is probably going for a throw. If the throw is not far, often using your partner’s pack will work just fine. Remove expensive breakables from the pack. Tie a rope securely to it, and toss it up there, over the edge. You might not want to let it fall too far on the other side. Pull on the rope, and see what you get, as far as resistance. Sometimes it will catch on an edge; sometimes it is just counter-balanced. For the latter, the shape of the neck makes a big difference. Now with a rope up over the edge, plus a boost, and pulling on the rope with your hands might get you up over the lip. It might not take pulling on the rope very hard, just enough to get up to the good holds. >> 4. Next up is probably a bigger, heavier throw, and using rope-ascending tools to climb the rope to the good holds. >> 4A. Throwing from the bottom of the potholes is often not very effective. It helps to do the throws from the rappel into the pothole. On this particular pothole (2nd keeper in Neon), it is easy enough to stem out over the keeper pothole and gently plop a sand-filled Potshot on the down-canyon side of the lip. >> 4B. Partner’s packs don’t toss that well; so there are bags made for that called a Pot Shot. >> 4C. Sometimes the throw is long and the stance awkward, in which case, figure out the heaviest Pot Shot you can do the throw with. Sometimes you might need to throw more than one Pot Shot. >
> Those are the main tools. They can be used in many different ways. >
> Wet Potholes create additional problems as, when the escaper is swimming, the clock is ticking on hypothermia; and partner assists are difficult to use. So, in addition to the general line of thought above, we can add: >
> 5. using flotation: >> 5a. first stage is to use your pack as a flotation device (might involve blowing up your drybag for more float; and pre-planning to bring a larger drybag or some other things to help out). First Try: straddle the pack with your legs to get your body up 1-2 feet higher, so you can reach the good holds. >> 5b. second stage is to use your pack and a swimming assist. Have your partner swim vigorously to hold the pack against the wall, while you climb up on it. Close but no cigar? Clip a couple of packs tightly together to form a better “raft”. >> 6. or just do the throw and climb the rope. >
> If none of these things work, you CAN go nuclear! In this case, that means drilling holes with a hand-rock-drill, and putting hooks in them. Essentially aid-climbing (bat hooks in this case) to get out of the pothole. Many people consider this a ‘taint’: drilling holes in the canyon is not cool. >
> Sufficient? >
> Tom >
—
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