Still struggling to finish my book, but constantly becoming aware of new things I want to add. I had a small section on escaping potholes, but frankly, the only technique I know is basic hooking. Not much need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so I’ve had very little practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of people at the rendezvous were using a slick system that involved tying a short length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over the lip of the pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued. Anyone know of other systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a snob regarding technique. My perspective has always been that wet canyons are much more difficult than dry canyons — learn to descend a canyon with current and you can easily descend any dry canyon. But I’m beginning to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned that my book will be too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could sure use some help from some of you with more CP experience than me.
Rich
TomJones
From time to time, the question comes up: how DO people get out of those darn keeper potholes, anyway???
A Brief Primer – and a plea to the readership to add suggestions and stories of things that work and don’t work:
Let me first divide potholes into two situations: wet potholes, with enough water to increase difficulty; and dry potholes, where one can stand comfortably at the bottom and do things, and the clock is not ticking more than usual.
Dry/Dryish potholes first. A hierarchy of techniques, to be used progressively:
1. Partner assist is the first technique to use. With good footing, two people can often lift (crane) one lighter person up the wall to the full extension of their hands (on feet). 2. Rearranging the Landscape: if there is sufficient sand and/or rocks around, sometimes they can be piled up at the bottom of the exit – though this often is a lot of work for not very much gain. If the partner lift ends up 2-3 inches short, it might be worth pursuing. 3. Next is probably going for a throw. If the throw is not far, often using your partner’s pack will work just fine. Remove expensive breakables from the pack. Tie a rope securely to it, and toss it up there, over the edge. You might not want to let it fall too far on the other side. Pull on the rope, and see what you get, as far as resistance. Sometimes it will catch on an edge; sometimes it is just counter-balanced. For the latter, the shape of the neck makes a big difference. Now with a rope up over the edge, plus a boost, and pulling on the rope with your hands might get you up over the lip. It might not take pulling on the rope very hard, just enough to get up to the good holds. 4. Next up is probably a bigger, heavier throw, and using rope-ascending tools to climb the rope to the good holds. 4A. Throwing from the bottom of the potholes is often not very effective. It helps to do the throws from the rappel into the pothole. On this particular pothole (2nd keeper in Neon), it is easy enough to stem out over the keeper pothole and gently plop a sand-filled Potshot on the down-canyon side of the lip. 4B. Partner’s packs don’t toss that well; so there are bags made for that called a Pot Shot. 4C. Sometimes the throw is long and the stance awkward, in which case, figure out the heaviest Pot Shot you can do the throw with. Sometimes you might need to throw more than one Pot Shot.
Those are the main tools. They can be used in many different ways.
Wet Potholes create additional problems as, when the escaper is swimming, the clock is ticking on hypothermia; and partner assists are difficult to use. So, in addition to the general line of thought above, we can add:
5. using flotation: 5a. first stage is to use your pack as a flotation device (might involve blowing up your drybag for more float; and pre-planning to bring a larger drybag or some other things to help out). First Try: straddle the pack with your legs to get your body up 1-2 feet higher, so you can reach the good holds. 5b. second stage is to use your pack and a swimming assist. Have your partner swim vigorously to hold the pack against the wall, while you climb up on it. Close but no cigar? Clip a couple of packs tightly together to form a better “raft”. 6. or just do the throw and climb the rope.
If none of these things work, you CAN go nuclear! In this case, that means drilling holes with a hand-rock-drill, and putting hooks in them. Essentially aid-climbing (bat hooks in this case) to get out of the pothole. Many people consider this a ‘taint’: drilling holes in the canyon is not cool.
Sufficient?
Tom
Charles Wyman
Rich, a friend of mine, Bill Ellard, has a system of quick-setting anchors that cam into a shallow hole. For experienced lead climbers, this looks like the most elegant solution. For the rest of us, a hook is probably the best way. ccw —– Original Message —– From: rcwild@wildernessmail.net To: canyons@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 2:28 PM Subject: [canyons group] Escaping Potholes
Still struggling to finish my book, but constantly becoming aware of
new things I want to add. I had a small section on escaping potholes,
but frankly, the only technique I know is basic hooking. Not much
need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so I’ve had very little
practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of people at the
rendezvous were using a slick system that involved tying a short
length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over the lip of the
pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued. Anyone know of other
systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a snob regarding
technique. My perspective has always been that wet canyons are much
more difficult than dry canyons — learn to descend a canyon with
current and you can easily descend any dry canyon. But I’m beginning
to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned that my book will be
too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could sure use some help
from some of you with more CP experience than me.
Rich
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edg78@compuserve.com
Thanks Dave,
I appreciate the info.
Shane
— In canyons@y…, llana kanka wrote: > Shane,
I’ve placed one bolt in the sandstone in southern Utah > in 1997, and it was in a place that in retrospect > didn’t need it (at least in my opinion). I was just > quivering in my boots that day…a big pucker factor > for some reason. So my halo is broken when it comes to > canyons. As for climbing, I’ve put in my share of > bolts.
In the canyons if I need a good anchor and there are > good bolts already placed, I’ll use them. I just > refuse to place them myself because there is almost > always a reasonable alternative to bolts. And I > certainly would never chop bolts. I’ve often found > myself backing up questionable bolts with natural > anchors and vice versa.
If I’m going into a canyon that I don’t know or that I > have very skimpy information on, I carry a bolt kit > (yes), extra webbing, and several chunks of various > sizes of chord for knot chocks. I also carry a small > wooden dowel, but I’m not going to discuss that one > with you in front of the group for reasons that have > become pretty obvious. I usually take a 60m 9mm rope, > and I usually don’t solo canyons I that don’t have > good information on, unless they’re exceptionally > short or close to home.
I’ve never drilled to hook out.
I don’t carry the baseball unless I’m totally clueless > about what I’m going to find, with one exception. For > the last 7 months I’ve been rock climbing on the > broken mesas in the vicinity of Blanding. These are > broken up in a fashion that they form dozens of > mini-slots that are my only way to the rim to set up > my long top ropes for ascender belays. Some of these > mini-slots are incredibly complex and maze-like and > very technical, and range up to 1200 feet in length. > I’ve started to enjoy these little slots so much that > I’m doing more of them than I am climbs. Anyway, I use > the baseball on a regular basis (almost daily) in > these slots as a sort of mobile top rope because their > smooth vertical walls are choked with overhanging > boulders and there’s some serious exposed bouldering > going on to get through them.
I don’t know if you’ve heard the term “Mae West” slot > before. It’s probably jargon that isn’t in common use > (I think Joe’s done a lot of these). I use the term to > refer to those slots that are so narrow that they are > virtually an eternal off-width crack/chimney. Where a > slot ‘Mae Wests’ you can be doing some serious exposed > climbing ranging from tight body jams to horizontal > body stems for several hundred yards and in all that > distance your feet never touch the bottom of the > canyon. In those kinds of slots, getting across a > deep, crooked, bombay keeper pothole can be a > nightmare that makes the keeper in Quandry Direct seem > pretty whimpy. That’s the type situation I initially > thought I could use the baseball in.
As for the autohaul, I just threw that in my e-mail > for brain fodor. Attaching the autohaul to the ball > pretty much stunts the effectiveness of the ball toss, > and it can be a real pain to keep the mess from > tangling up or jamming. The few times I’ve used the > autohaul in a pothole I did so basically to prove it > could be done if I really needed it, not because I was > trapped.
I can’t think of any other techniques to tell you > about (and I probably wouldn’t discuss them here if I > did). You’re at least as experienced as I am, I think, > and you’ve probably got a lot of your own ideas that I > could learn from.
DB
— “Shane B.” wrote:
Dave, (I would also like to hear from Joe Wrona on
this also)
Your a No-bolt kind of guy. Do you ever use bolts?
Do you ever drill to
hook out of potholes? Have you always been able to
escape potholes
naturally? Any more interesting techniques besides
baseballs you wish to
share?
What gear do you carry when attempting an unknown
canyon for the first time?
Just curious, the more I get into canyoneering the
more I am drawn to the
challenge of attempting canyons without bolts.
Heading down to buy a baseball tonight….
Shane Burrows
> > > Auctions – buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
llana kanka
Shane,
I’ve placed one bolt in the sandstone in southern Utah in 1997, and it was in a place that in retrospect didn’t need it (at least in my opinion). I was just quivering in my boots that day…a big pucker factor for some reason. So my halo is broken when it comes to canyons. As for climbing, I’ve put in my share of bolts.
In the canyons if I need a good anchor and there are good bolts already placed, I’ll use them. I just refuse to place them myself because there is almost always a reasonable alternative to bolts. And I certainly would never chop bolts. I’ve often found myself backing up questionable bolts with natural anchors and vice versa.
If I’m going into a canyon that I don’t know or that I have very skimpy information on, I carry a bolt kit (yes), extra webbing, and several chunks of various sizes of chord for knot chocks. I also carry a small wooden dowel, but I’m not going to discuss that one with you in front of the group for reasons that have become pretty obvious. I usually take a 60m 9mm rope, and I usually don’t solo canyons I that don’t have good information on, unless they’re exceptionally short or close to home.
I’ve never drilled to hook out.
I don’t carry the baseball unless I’m totally clueless about what I’m going to find, with one exception. For the last 7 months I’ve been rock climbing on the broken mesas in the vicinity of Blanding. These are broken up in a fashion that they form dozens of mini-slots that are my only way to the rim to set up my long top ropes for ascender belays. Some of these mini-slots are incredibly complex and maze-like and very technical, and range up to 1200 feet in length. I’ve started to enjoy these little slots so much that I’m doing more of them than I am climbs. Anyway, I use the baseball on a regular basis (almost daily) in these slots as a sort of mobile top rope because their smooth vertical walls are choked with overhanging boulders and there’s some serious exposed bouldering going on to get through them.
I don’t know if you’ve heard the term “Mae West” slot before. It’s probably jargon that isn’t in common use (I think Joe’s done a lot of these). I use the term to refer to those slots that are so narrow that they are virtually an eternal off-width crack/chimney. Where a slot ‘Mae Wests’ you can be doing some serious exposed climbing ranging from tight body jams to horizontal body stems for several hundred yards and in all that distance your feet never touch the bottom of the canyon. In those kinds of slots, getting across a deep, crooked, bombay keeper pothole can be a nightmare that makes the keeper in Quandry Direct seem pretty whimpy. That’s the type situation I initially thought I could use the baseball in.
As for the autohaul, I just threw that in my e-mail for brain fodor. Attaching the autohaul to the ball pretty much stunts the effectiveness of the ball toss, and it can be a real pain to keep the mess from tangling up or jamming. The few times I’ve used the autohaul in a pothole I did so basically to prove it could be done if I really needed it, not because I was trapped.
I can’t think of any other techniques to tell you about (and I probably wouldn’t discuss them here if I did). You’re at least as experienced as I am, I think, and you’ve probably got a lot of your own ideas that I could learn from.
DB
— “Shane B.” edg78@compuserve.com> wrote: > Dave, (I would also like to hear from Joe Wrona on > this also)
Your a No-bolt kind of guy. Do you ever use bolts? > Do you ever drill to > hook out of potholes? Have you always been able to > escape potholes > naturally? Any more interesting techniques besides > baseballs you wish to > share?
What gear do you carry when attempting an unknown > canyon for the first time?
Just curious, the more I get into canyoneering the > more I am drawn to the > challenge of attempting canyons without bolts.
Heading down to buy a baseball tonight….
Shane Burrows
Auctions – buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Shane B.
Dave, (I would also like to hear from Joe Wrona on this also)
Your a No-bolt kind of guy. Do you ever use bolts? Do you ever drill to hook out of potholes? Have you always been able to escape potholes naturally? Any more interesting techniques besides baseballs you wish to share?
What gear do you carry when attempting an unknown canyon for the first time?
Just curious, the more I get into canyoneering the more I am drawn to the challenge of attempting canyons without bolts.
Heading down to buy a baseball tonight….
Shane Burrows
hmoon@petzl.com
Guys, guys… I think Adam was only joking here – hence the 😉 Looking at his email, seems he may be from Oz, in which case I KNOW he’s joking – that’s all they do down there is laff the day away. 😉 hank adski@arapiles.com 05/21/01 03:53 AM Please respond to canyons To: canyons@yahoogroups.com cc: Subject: Re: [canyons group] Escaping Potholes This sounds fun… Rich, if you keep getting distracted by ‘techniques’ such as throwing baseballs into cracks, and consider including them in your book, i doubt if it will ever be finished… 😉 it sounds like an interesting exercise, only it doesn’t sound like canyoning! adam — In canyons@y…, llana kanka wrote: > Some food for thought for pothole puzzle-solvers: > > After a near-death experience in a keeper hole in a > swimmer Mae West slot on Powell a couple of years > back, I worked on some ideas for a couple of problems. > The first was finding a suitable tossed anchor that > could be thrown in to very high cracks and very narrow > or twisted cracks that a tossed pack or even a throw > bag would have trouble penetrating. The solution for > this was a simple 5-ounce baseball (hardball). I > drilled a hole straight through it and tied a loop > through it, knotted behind a washer on one end. I got > excellent penetration with it, and even with the round > shape it manages to catch on something more often than > not. With an 8mm line stacked on the ground I’ve been > able to get an accurate 34-foot toss. I get over 50 > feet when it’s tossed in a tight butterfly-style hand > coil. A 7mm line and/or a heavier ball (maybe a > LaCrosse ball?) would probably get more distance. I > can hang from and even hop on the baseball line, and > it takes the weight without any distortion or damage. > > I also resurrected an auto-haul extraction system I > had improvised for exiting bombbay squeeze-tube > entrances in desert caves (it’s written up in one of > the NSS journals in 1998, sorry I can’t tell you which > one). I pre-rigged the baseball with the autohaul > using a 7mm line. Even with the weight of the tripled > 7mm I can get a 25-foot toss into a high or narrow > crack. Once the baseball is anchored, the autohaul is > hooked to my harness and I can haul myself up a short, > blank less-than-vertical pothole wall (a theoretical > 2:1 hauling system. Actually it’s not anywhere near > that efficient, but it’s quick and it’s much easier > than just hand-over-hand.)The autohaul sucks on an > overhang, though, but it would certainly be possible > to use ascenders on a single line from the baseball. > > It’s worked for me a few times, and I’d rather screw > around with it than drill my way out. > > > — rcwild@w… wrote:
Still struggling to finish my book, but constantly
becoming aware of
new things I want to add. I had a small section on
escaping potholes,
but frankly, the only technique I know is basic
hooking. Not much
need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so I’ve
had very little
practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of
people at the
rendezvous were using a slick system that involved
tying a short
length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over the
lip of the
pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued.
Anyone know of other
systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a
snob regarding
technique. My perspective has always been that wet
canyons are much
more difficult than dry canyons — learn to descend
a canyon with
current and you can easily descend any dry canyon.
But I’m beginning
to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned that
my book will be
too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could sure
use some help
from some of you with more CP experience than me.
Rich
> > > > > > > > Auctions – buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association http://www.canyoneering.net Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options. DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
llana kanka
Oh, and Adam, I might add that the idea came from an old ski lift evac technique…it was how we would get a rope over the cable to set up a lower for stranded lift riders. It doesn’t sound like skiing, put it was part of the repertoire.
— adski@arapiles.com wrote: > This sounds fun…
Rich, if you keep getting distracted by ‘techniques’ > such as throwing > baseballs into cracks, and consider including them > in your book, i > doubt if it will ever be finished… 😉
it sounds like an interesting exercise, only it > doesn’t sound like > canyoning!
adam
— In canyons@y…, llana kanka a
swimmer Mae West slot on Powell a couple of years
back, I worked on some ideas for a couple of > problems.
The first was finding a suitable tossed anchor > that
could be thrown in to very high cracks and very > narrow
or twisted cracks that a tossed pack or even a > throw
bag would have trouble penetrating. The solution > for
this was a simple 5-ounce baseball (hardball). I
drilled a hole straight through it and tied a loop
through it, knotted behind a washer on one end. I > got
excellent penetration with it, and even with the > round
shape it manages to catch on something more often > than
not. With an 8mm line stacked on the ground I’ve > been
able to get an accurate 34-foot toss. I get over > 50
feet when it’s tossed in a tight butterfly-style > hand
coil. A 7mm line and/or a heavier ball (maybe a
LaCrosse ball?) would probably get more distance. > I
can hang from and even hop on the baseball line, > and
it takes the weight without any distortion or > damage.
I also resurrected an auto-haul extraction system > I
had improvised for exiting bombbay squeeze-tube
entrances in desert caves (it’s written up in one > of
the NSS journals in 1998, sorry I can’t tell you > which
one). I pre-rigged the baseball with the autohaul
using a 7mm line. Even with the weight of the > tripled
7mm I can get a 25-foot toss into a high or narrow
crack. Once the baseball is anchored, the autohaul > is
hooked to my harness and I can haul myself up a > short,
blank less-than-vertical pothole wall (a > theoretical
2:1 hauling system. Actually it’s not anywhere > near
that efficient, but it’s quick and it’s much > easier
than just hand-over-hand.)The autohaul sucks on an
overhang, though, but it would certainly be > possible
to use ascenders on a single line from the > baseball.
It’s worked for me a few times, and I’d rather > screw
around with it than drill my way out.
— rcwild@w… wrote:
> Still struggling to finish my book, but > constantly
> becoming aware of
> new things I want to add. I had a small section > on
> escaping potholes,
> but frankly, the only technique I know is basic
> hooking. Not much
> need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so > I’ve
> had very little
> practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of
> people at the
> rendezvous were using a slick system that > involved
> tying a short
> length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over > the
> lip of the
> pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued.
> Anyone know of other
> systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of > a
> snob regarding
> technique. My perspective has always been that > wet
> canyons are much
> more difficult than dry canyons — learn to > descend
> a canyon with
> current and you can easily descend any dry > canyon.
> But I’m beginning
> to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned > that
> my book will be
> too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could > sure
> use some help
> from some of you with more CP experience than > me.
Rich
>
Auctions – buy the things you want at great > prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
Auctions – buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
llana kanka
Adam,
My baseball thing wasn’t aimed at Rich or his book. I don’t need that. As for it not sounding like canyoning, throwing a small ball in a crack sounds a lot more like ethical canyoning than drilling holes. It also beats pulling back and bypassing an impassable section.
I thought this was supposed to be a forum for generating new ideas. Your comments are unwarranted.
— adski@arapiles.com wrote: > This sounds fun…
Rich, if you keep getting distracted by ‘techniques’ > such as throwing > baseballs into cracks, and consider including them > in your book, i > doubt if it will ever be finished… 😉
it sounds like an interesting exercise, only it > doesn’t sound like > canyoning!
adam
— In canyons@y…, llana kanka a
swimmer Mae West slot on Powell a couple of years
back, I worked on some ideas for a couple of > problems.
The first was finding a suitable tossed anchor > that
could be thrown in to very high cracks and very > narrow
or twisted cracks that a tossed pack or even a > throw
bag would have trouble penetrating. The solution > for
this was a simple 5-ounce baseball (hardball). I
drilled a hole straight through it and tied a loop
through it, knotted behind a washer on one end. I > got
excellent penetration with it, and even with the > round
shape it manages to catch on something more often > than
not. With an 8mm line stacked on the ground I’ve > been
able to get an accurate 34-foot toss. I get over > 50
feet when it’s tossed in a tight butterfly-style > hand
coil. A 7mm line and/or a heavier ball (maybe a
LaCrosse ball?) would probably get more distance. > I
can hang from and even hop on the baseball line, > and
it takes the weight without any distortion or > damage.
I also resurrected an auto-haul extraction system > I
had improvised for exiting bombbay squeeze-tube
entrances in desert caves (it’s written up in one > of
the NSS journals in 1998, sorry I can’t tell you > which
one). I pre-rigged the baseball with the autohaul
using a 7mm line. Even with the weight of the > tripled
7mm I can get a 25-foot toss into a high or narrow
crack. Once the baseball is anchored, the autohaul > is
hooked to my harness and I can haul myself up a > short,
blank less-than-vertical pothole wall (a > theoretical
2:1 hauling system. Actually it’s not anywhere > near
that efficient, but it’s quick and it’s much > easier
than just hand-over-hand.)The autohaul sucks on an
overhang, though, but it would certainly be > possible
to use ascenders on a single line from the > baseball.
It’s worked for me a few times, and I’d rather > screw
around with it than drill my way out.
— rcwild@w… wrote:
> Still struggling to finish my book, but > constantly
> becoming aware of
> new things I want to add. I had a small section > on
> escaping potholes,
> but frankly, the only technique I know is basic
> hooking. Not much
> need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so > I’ve
> had very little
> practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of
> people at the
> rendezvous were using a slick system that > involved
> tying a short
> length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over > the
> lip of the
> pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued.
> Anyone know of other
> systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of > a
> snob regarding
> technique. My perspective has always been that > wet
> canyons are much
> more difficult than dry canyons — learn to > descend
> a canyon with
> current and you can easily descend any dry > canyon.
> But I’m beginning
> to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned > that
> my book will be
> too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could > sure
> use some help
> from some of you with more CP experience than > me.
Rich
>
Auctions – buy the things you want at great > prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
Auctions – buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
adski@arapiles.com
This sounds fun…
Rich, if you keep getting distracted by ‘techniques’ such as throwing baseballs into cracks, and consider including them in your book, i doubt if it will ever be finished… 😉
it sounds like an interesting exercise, only it doesn’t sound like canyoning!
adam
— In canyons@y…, llana kanka wrote: > Some food for thought for pothole puzzle-solvers:
After a near-death experience in a keeper hole in a > swimmer Mae West slot on Powell a couple of years > back, I worked on some ideas for a couple of problems. > The first was finding a suitable tossed anchor that > could be thrown in to very high cracks and very narrow > or twisted cracks that a tossed pack or even a throw > bag would have trouble penetrating. The solution for > this was a simple 5-ounce baseball (hardball). I > drilled a hole straight through it and tied a loop > through it, knotted behind a washer on one end. I got > excellent penetration with it, and even with the round > shape it manages to catch on something more often than > not. With an 8mm line stacked on the ground I’ve been > able to get an accurate 34-foot toss. I get over 50 > feet when it’s tossed in a tight butterfly-style hand > coil. A 7mm line and/or a heavier ball (maybe a > LaCrosse ball?) would probably get more distance. I > can hang from and even hop on the baseball line, and > it takes the weight without any distortion or damage.
I also resurrected an auto-haul extraction system I > had improvised for exiting bombbay squeeze-tube > entrances in desert caves (it’s written up in one of > the NSS journals in 1998, sorry I can’t tell you which > one). I pre-rigged the baseball with the autohaul > using a 7mm line. Even with the weight of the tripled > 7mm I can get a 25-foot toss into a high or narrow > crack. Once the baseball is anchored, the autohaul is > hooked to my harness and I can haul myself up a short, > blank less-than-vertical pothole wall (a theoretical > 2:1 hauling system. Actually it’s not anywhere near > that efficient, but it’s quick and it’s much easier > than just hand-over-hand.)The autohaul sucks on an > overhang, though, but it would certainly be possible > to use ascenders on a single line from the baseball.
It’s worked for me a few times, and I’d rather screw > around with it than drill my way out.
> — rcwild@w… wrote:
Still struggling to finish my book, but constantly
becoming aware of
new things I want to add. I had a small section on
escaping potholes,
but frankly, the only technique I know is basic
hooking. Not much
need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so I’ve
had very little
practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of
people at the
rendezvous were using a slick system that involved
tying a short
length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over the
lip of the
pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued.
Anyone know of other
systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a
snob regarding
technique. My perspective has always been that wet
canyons are much
more difficult than dry canyons — learn to descend
a canyon with
current and you can easily descend any dry canyon.
But I’m beginning
to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned that
my book will be
too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could sure
use some help
from some of you with more CP experience than me.
Rich
> > Auctions – buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
llana kanka
Some food for thought for pothole puzzle-solvers:
After a near-death experience in a keeper hole in a swimmer Mae West slot on Powell a couple of years back, I worked on some ideas for a couple of problems. The first was finding a suitable tossed anchor that could be thrown in to very high cracks and very narrow or twisted cracks that a tossed pack or even a throw bag would have trouble penetrating. The solution for this was a simple 5-ounce baseball (hardball). I drilled a hole straight through it and tied a loop through it, knotted behind a washer on one end. I got excellent penetration with it, and even with the round shape it manages to catch on something more often than not. With an 8mm line stacked on the ground I’ve been able to get an accurate 34-foot toss. I get over 50 feet when it’s tossed in a tight butterfly-style hand coil. A 7mm line and/or a heavier ball (maybe a LaCrosse ball?) would probably get more distance. I can hang from and even hop on the baseball line, and it takes the weight without any distortion or damage.
I also resurrected an auto-haul extraction system I had improvised for exiting bombbay squeeze-tube entrances in desert caves (it’s written up in one of the NSS journals in 1998, sorry I can’t tell you which one). I pre-rigged the baseball with the autohaul using a 7mm line. Even with the weight of the tripled 7mm I can get a 25-foot toss into a high or narrow crack. Once the baseball is anchored, the autohaul is hooked to my harness and I can haul myself up a short, blank less-than-vertical pothole wall (a theoretical 2:1 hauling system. Actually it’s not anywhere near that efficient, but it’s quick and it’s much easier than just hand-over-hand.)The autohaul sucks on an overhang, though, but it would certainly be possible to use ascenders on a single line from the baseball.
It’s worked for me a few times, and I’d rather screw around with it than drill my way out.
— rcwild@wildernessmail.net wrote: > Still struggling to finish my book, but constantly > becoming aware of > new things I want to add. I had a small section on > escaping potholes, > but frankly, the only technique I know is basic > hooking. Not much > need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so I’ve > had very little > practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of > people at the > rendezvous were using a slick system that involved > tying a short > length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over the > lip of the > pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued. > Anyone know of other > systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a > snob regarding > technique. My perspective has always been that wet > canyons are much > more difficult than dry canyons — learn to descend > a canyon with > current and you can easily descend any dry canyon. > But I’m beginning > to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned that > my book will be > too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could sure > use some help > from some of you with more CP experience than me.
Rich
>
Auctions – buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
edg78@compuserve.com
>>grappling hook>claw devices>Sherrill Big Shot line gun>water balloon / t-shirt canon
Shane B.
>>Pole vault? 2″ pipe? May be fine for you, but will it hold an overweight, over-the-hill canyoneer like me?
Ray Ford
RE the cheater stick
I was there when we loaded Tom’s “stick” with a pack of about 15 lbs and boy did it bend. The bottom line is that throwing the pack over works and cheater sticks probably won’t. If the stick is heavy duty enough to keep from bending you most likely won’t be carrying it. That is, unless Tom’s got his Cheater 2 new and improved version ready for the next R.
Ray
rcwild@wildernessmail.net
Shane,
I knew it, I knew it, I knew it….hahaha……..snob……hahaha
Is this the price I have to pay for my humility?
Pole vault? 2″ pipe? May be fine for you, but will it hold an overweight, over-the-hill canyoneer like me? Any chance you could toss a 6″ pipe in there?
Rich
Chris Raver
Why use ropes… I always carry a pair of entrés, you know for assending. Tie a couple of those to the Backpack before throwing them over. Makes it a lot easier to climb out.
Chris.
from Utah.
—–Original Message—– From: Shane B. [mailto:edg78@compuserve.com] Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 3:58 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [canyons group] Escaping Potholes
>>I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a snob regarding technique. My perspective has always been that wet canyons are much more difficult than dry canyons 0!@`(““Y`0“““`#H“$(@“`&`””`&“““#““““`1@““!4A0“`0“ M“0““Y+C“”P`”@`@@!@“““P““““$8““`!H4““““#“.` M””`&“““#““““`1@““`!A0““““L`!(`((`8“““,“““ M“!&“““.%““““”P`%@`@@!@“““P““““$8““`#H4““` M“`#“:`””`&“““#““““`1@““`0A0““““,`!X`((`8““` M`,““““!&““`!&%““““`P`(@`@@!@“““P““““$8““` M&(4““““>“F`””`&“““#““““`1@““`VA0“`0““$““` M““’@`*@`@@!@“““P““““$8““`-X4“`$““!““““`!X` M”X`((`8“““,““““!&““`#B%“`!““`0““““`”`0D0`0“ M`!4%“`1!0“EP`%$”61ND$$$&]3(3^08T9H M`D#@
Shane B.
>>The Cheater extends about 10 meters and has a sturdy hook on the end.
Shane B.
>>I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a snob regarding technique. My perspective has always been that wet canyons are much more difficult than dry canyons
Shane B.
Rich,
I believe your book should include a section on counter weights. Some of the more popular things I have seen done are tying a rope to a back pack and tossing it over the rim. If more weight is need you can fill the backpack with rocks, sand, etc and toss it over the lip of the pothole. Or just toss several backpacks over the rim, don’t forget to tie the rope on, otherwise you just look like an idiot.
Some folks have started carrying a large, strong, empty bag which can be filled with anything handy, tied to a rope and tossed over the lip. This system seems to be picking up the term “Body Bag” to describe it. The term might have been around a long time and I have just started to hear it.
Actually, several smaller body bags work really good since you can fill them and toss them much farther than a big full bag. You toss several small bags over the lip, each with a rope attached and than just “Batman” up the rope. Specking of Batman, do any of you ever wonder about this guy??? He is older, single, dresses in tights, wears a leather mask, drives a cool car, lives with a young boy and likes sliding down poles. Hmmm
I use a slight variation of the body bag system. I carry a dry bag since I can fill it with rocks, sand or water. Seems like most potholes have either sand or water in large supplies.
Brian told me of a group that uses a large dry bag which they toss over empty except for a long thin tube and a rope attached. The group than pumps water from the pothole through the tube and fills the dry bag. Sounds like a lot of work but probably works.
Tom, made a cool “cheater Stick” from an avalanche probe. The Cheater extends about 10 meters and has a sturdy hook on the end. The idea is to use the Cheater to lift backpacks to the other side of the pothole so you have a counter weight. We intended to test drive Tom’s cheater stick in the Squeeze but were rained out so I can’t tell you how well it worked.
Often 20 or 30 pounds is all that is need in a counter weight to give yourself the small boost needed to climb out of a keeper pothole.
Using your climbing partner as a steep ladder is also very popular. It seems that standing on his shoulders is OK, but for some reason they get upset if you stand on there heads, haven’t figured that on out yet. Team work is a excellent tool.
Maybe a shoulder stand to get you past the overhang and a counter weight it climb the last few slippery feet???? Being creative is the best tool I carry.
I have also heard of people carrying a small inner tube or blow up raft to help escape half flooded potholes, I have never tried it. I believe Kelsey mentions this method in several of his books.
I will probably think of some more stuff later…..
Shane Burrows
—– Original Message —– From: rcwild@wildernessmail.net> To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: [canyons group] Escaping Potholes
Still struggling to finish my book, but constantly becoming aware of > new things I want to add. I had a small section on escaping potholes, > but frankly, the only technique I know is basic hooking. Not much > need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so I’ve had very little > practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of people at the > rendezvous were using a slick system that involved tying a short > length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over the lip of the > pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued. Anyone know of other > systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a snob regarding > technique. My perspective has always been that wet canyons are much > more difficult than dry canyons — learn to descend a canyon with > current and you can easily descend any dry canyon. But I’m beginning > to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned that my book will be > too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could sure use some help > from some of you with more CP experience than me.
Rich
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
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Richard A Shear
Rich: Now don’t laugh but I like to experiment, so here is my experience. I have used a grappling hook that I purchased from a “Ninja” type store in Vegas. Threw it above and over a ledge (not a keeper pool). It grabbed but I didn’t trust it because I couldn’t see over the ledge and how it was secured. If my life depended on it, I would have climbed up and out. At the “Ninja” store which looked like a “head shop” I saw some claw devices which can be strapped to your hands and “allegedly” give you incredible gripping power with their series of nail like teeth. I passed but mused at their possibilities. Lastly I have been pondering some adaptation of the Sherrill Big Shot line gun used by arborists to catch high limbs on trees. So far nothing seems useful but I keep looking. The big shot needs a long pole and the water balloon / t-shirt canon used at outdoor events can shoot far but deploying a throw bag around a choke stone or other target is still a hope and prayer. I am curious to get a better understanding of how the arborists deploy rope bags. PS: Two weeks ago, I had to drink some water I pumped and filtered from one of those nasty stagnant pools. The Pur filter did it’s job, I am still here ! Regards, Dick Shear, Las Vegas —– Original Message —– From: rcwild@wildernessmail.net To: canyons@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 2:28 PM Subject: [canyons group] Escaping Potholes
Still struggling to finish my book, but constantly becoming aware of
new things I want to add. I had a small section on escaping potholes,
but frankly, the only technique I know is basic hooking. Not much
need for it in the wet canyons I frequent, so I’ve had very little
practice. Tom mentioned to me that a couple of people at the
rendezvous were using a slick system that involved tying a short
length of rope to a backpack and heaving it over the lip of the
pothole, then jugging the rope. I’m intrigued. Anyone know of other
systems I should include?
I’m beginning to realize that I’ve been a bit of a snob regarding
technique. My perspective has always been that wet canyons are much
more difficult than dry canyons — learn to descend a canyon with
current and you can easily descend any dry canyon. But I’m beginning
to rethink this perspective and I’m concerned that my book will be
too heavily slanted toward wet canyons. I could sure use some help
from some of you with more CP experience than me.
Rich
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association
http://www.canyoneering.net
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