Kris, Opening a can of worms here… What were your feelings about finding chains and fixed line in West Canyon? Bother you any? Did it seem appropriate? Curious. Steve
Yahoo Canyons Group
Kris, Opening a can of worms here… What were your feelings about finding chains and fixed line in West Canyon? Bother you any? Did it seem appropriate? Curious. Steve
canyonquest
I wasn’t bothered by the dozen bolts or the dozen fixed lines in West. I was bothered by the two campsites in the upper canyon that were full of garbage. Packed out 2 garbage bags full. If someone wants to leave a bolt and a fixed line to avoid a sprained ankle in the middle of nowhere I’m fine with that. If someone wants to leave their trash because they’re too lazy to pack it out 8 miles, I think they should be strung up by one of those fixed lines.
http://canyonquest.com/gallery/west
— In canyons@y…, Steve Brezovec wrote: > What were your feelings about finding chains and fixed line in West Canyon? > Bother you any? Did it seem appropriate? Curious.
Scott Holley
Kris et al, Kris, you should feel bad about this but, it is something you did not realize, so you get some ignorance points there. Many people would be suprised to know that I have followed them through canyons and picked up large amounts of trash (not rope but garbage) behind them. These are not in the easy to access canyons either. Are these people just seeing trash and leaving it, or are they not picking up after themselves. Seems like either of those two options really should not matter. We all want them canyons clean, right? So, even if it is not your trash, why not take it with you if you can? Look around before you leave your lunch site, make sure it is clean. I am sure I am guilty of leaving something at some time too, but I do try. –scott
> Tom, that’s not the worst of it. (Soul baring time.) I was informed by > Lowell (who followed our group that same weekend) that there was a fair > amount of trash left behind by our group. While I may have some > reasons / > excuses for not removing the ropes, there’s no excuse for trash. I’m > ashamed that our group left a mess. I tried to keep an eye out for stuff > left behind and I picked up several items left behind by the boys, but I > should have made a sweep of camp before heading down canyon. My bad. I > want to publicly thank Lowell for picking up and hauling out the > litter we > left behind. Seeing trash out in the wilds really bugs me so it weighs > heavily on me that I was involved (even if indirectly) in leaving a mess > behind. > > If you want excuses, here’s some: I was bringing up the rear > with a boy who > wasn’t really sure of himself in getting through the narrows. > Also with me > was an adult who’s knees were all but locked up on him. Plus it > was a new > canyon that I was unfamiliar with and we were trying to catch up with the > rest of the group ahead of us. Part of my character is to be > tenative when > faced with judgement-call situations – I mostly tend to leave things lie > unless they strike me as decidedly out of whack. And while some of the > ropes and other “aid” struck me as oddly placed while in the > canyon, it was > only afterward, when I reflected on the canyon, that it really started to > hit me how unnecessary most of it was. I’ll do better next time. > > Whew! I’d ask for some absolution but I feel I’ve got some penance to do > first. > > On another topic, I saw some photos one of the otehr adults took while in > the narrows and there were some pretty nice shots. Mared a bit by water > spots on the lens. I’ll post these on the web soon for you all to oggle. > > – Kris Nosack > > Mike said: >
— In canyons@y…, “ratagonia” wrote:
> Also, Kris, by not taking that crap out of there, you are teaching
> your scouts that leaving crap in the wilderness is acceptable.
> Remember *Leave No Trace*?
>
> Tom
Whoa Tom, calm down. Methinks you are a bit harsh. Or are you at
the point where you leave no webbing or other unnatural items behind
at every drop in every canyon you descend?
Kris: Thanks for the trip report. As someone who hasn’t been in the
desert for a while, it was a nice read and the pictures were
enjoyable. Looking forward to more! > > > > > When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make > reading and searching easier. You can use the following > abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = > Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical > Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for > Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know > you are coding for us, such as: > > Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working? > > Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. > Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated > forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer > > To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/ > > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. > Press "Save > Changes". > > DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. > > WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. > > > Your use of Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > >
Kris Nosack
Tom, that’s not the worst of it. (Soul baring time.) I was informed by Lowell (who followed our group that same weekend) that there was a fair amount of trash left behind by our group. While I may have some reasons / excuses for not removing the ropes, there’s no excuse for trash. I’m ashamed that our group left a mess. I tried to keep an eye out for stuff left behind and I picked up several items left behind by the boys, but I should have made a sweep of camp before heading down canyon. My bad. I want to publicly thank Lowell for picking up and hauling out the litter we left behind. Seeing trash out in the wilds really bugs me so it weighs heavily on me that I was involved (even if indirectly) in leaving a mess behind.
If you want excuses, here’s some: I was bringing up the rear with a boy who wasn’t really sure of himself in getting through the narrows. Also with me was an adult who’s knees were all but locked up on him. Plus it was a new canyon that I was unfamiliar with and we were trying to catch up with the rest of the group ahead of us. Part of my character is to be tenative when faced with judgement-call situations – I mostly tend to leave things lie unless they strike me as decidedly out of whack. And while some of the ropes and other “aid” struck me as oddly placed while in the canyon, it was only afterward, when I reflected on the canyon, that it really started to hit me how unnecessary most of it was. I’ll do better next time.
Whew! I’d ask for some absolution but I feel I’ve got some penance to do first.
On another topic, I saw some photos one of the otehr adults took while in the narrows and there were some pretty nice shots. Mared a bit by water spots on the lens. I’ll post these on the web soon for you all to oggle.
– Kris Nosack
Mike said:
> — In canyons@y…, “ratagonia” wrote:
Also, Kris, by not taking that crap out of there, you are teaching
your scouts that leaving crap in the wilderness is acceptable.
Remember *Leave No Trace*?
Tom
Whoa Tom, calm down. Methinks you are a bit harsh. Or are you at > the point where you leave no webbing or other unnatural items behind > at every drop in every canyon you descend?
Kris: Thanks for the trip report. As someone who hasn’t been in the > desert for a while, it was a nice read and the pictures were > enjoyable. Looking forward to more!
mike_dallin
— In canyons@y…, “ratagonia” wrote: > Also, Kris, by not taking that crap out of there, you are teaching > your scouts that leaving crap in the wilderness is acceptable. > Remember *Leave No Trace*?
Tom
Whoa Tom, calm down. Methinks you are a bit harsh. Or are you at the point where you leave no webbing or other unnatural items behind at every drop in every canyon you descend?
Kris: Thanks for the trip report. As someone who hasn’t been in the desert for a while, it was a nice read and the pictures were enjoyable. Looking forward to more!
Mike dallin@on-line.com
ratagonia
Anyone doing it solo is at a disadvantage, obviously. Presumeably they know that. Or will find it out quickly. Anyone doing the canyon, period, should be prepared to do it in its natural condition – yes? Because after a really good flash flood, it will be back to the way God left it.
What about people who are incompetent? What about people who are fat or weak? What about Vietnam Veterans in wheel chairs? Dyslexic? Acrophobic? Agoraphobic? Acrobatic? Aerobatic? Anorexic? (oops, I’m getting off track…)
Should the canyon be *civilized* to make it easier for people who are at some disadvantage? I think not. There’s no obvious place to draw the line, except at the beginning. I think all that crap (including the lower fixed ropes) should be removed. Litter.
Also, Kris, by not taking that crap out of there, you are teaching your scouts that leaving crap in the wilderness is acceptable. Remember *Leave No Trace*?
Tom
— In canyons@y…, Christopher Jain wrote:
I don’t know why Yahoo mail insists on formatting everything in html and then Yahoo Groups strips off all the html leaving the message looking like crap and making it impossible to tell the quoted part of Kris’ message from my question, but it sure is frustrating… Sorry. Here’ s a retry. > ==================================================== > Kris Nosack wrote: > …I saw NO obstacle that couldn’t be easily handled by > able-bodied people with only the most rudimentary skills. We’re talking > partner boosts up or partner assited lowering (either by hand or a short > section of rope).
======================================================
My comments: I’m not familier at all with this canyon, but what about someone who was going solo? In fact there’s a chance some of it was put in by someone going solo…
> > > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
Christopher Jain
I don’t know why Yahoo mail insists on formatting everything in html and then Yahoo Groups strips off all the html leaving the message looking like crap and making it impossible to tell the quoted part of Kris’ message from my question, but it sure is frustrating… Sorry. Here’ s a retry. ==================================================== Kris Nosack wrote: …I saw NO obstacle that couldn’t be easily handled by able-bodied people with only the most rudimentary skills. We’re talking partner boosts up or partner assited lowering (either by hand or a short section of rope).
======================================================
My comments: I’m not familier at all with this canyon, but what about someone who was going solo? In fact there’s a chance some of it was put in by someone going solo…
Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
Kris Nosack
On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Steve Brezovec wrote:
Kris, > Opening a can of worms here… > What were your feelings about finding chains and fixed line in West Canyon? > Bother you any? Did it seem appropriate? Curious. > Steve
Excellent question, Steve. I had several things I wanted to talk about to this group regarding my West Canyon trip, and this is one of them.
Kelsey’s description mentions some bolts and fixed lines, but I was suprised by how much of this “aid” I found in West. Hmm, I better clarify: In really technical canyons I would be less suprised to see bolts and fixed ropes and other such stuff because it’s a crutch for making it easier to get through the canyon. But West is not that technical. In fact it’s only one notch up (my opinion) from The Black Hole. In the upper narrows section I saw NO obstacle that couldn’t be easily handled by able-bodied people with only the most rudimentary skills. We’re talking partner boosts up or partner assited lowering (either by hand or a short section of rope). Sure, the middle pothole was dry so it would be more difficult part full of water, but it was at most 10 feet deep and I recall it being only slightly over my head (6-7 feet). At this pothole there was a fixed line attached to a bolt for dropping in and a chain to a bolt and a rope to another bolt for getting out. WAY overkill. The descent into this pothole is a moderate friction downclimb, but the nervous could be aided by a short rope anchored to a person at the top of this drop. The chain at the exit of this pothole is rusted and fairly thin (I’d guess the links are around 1.5″ long and 1/4″ diameter). Sure chain is more durable, but what kind of beating is it taking in a flood (and what kind of beating is it giving to the anchor and rock)? Most of the fixed ropes are rigged poorly (mostly bad anchor placement). Things like the rope extending from the bolt and over an edge. I’ve never seen so many lengths of hammered rope. Sure, I used the stuff, but only because a fall was only a drop of 3 feet or less and I doubted I would get injured only falling that far. So why bolt it and leave a fixed line in the first place? That’s a question I’d like to ask the folks who installed this junk.
I’m no canyoneering hardman by any stretch, so for me to be suprised by the amount of “aid” in West – that’s saying something. So if you’re a canyoneering purist at any level and you’re heading to West, brace yourself and take a knife and other tools to remove this junk. The ratty ropes alone will get some reaction from you (scared / pissed / disbelief).
Now the fixed lines in the lower and middle section weren’t so bad. They’re still a bit scary, but they are out of the water path and do limit some mild exposure which would be good for all the day-hikers coming up from Powell. And they provide a way to bypass the narrows (more specifically, the dryfall at the end of each of these narrows). But the “aid” in the upper section is almost inexcusable.
I can see providing ways around the obstacles in lower West, but the upper narrows take some work, determination and planning to get to so I see no reason why this part of the canyon shouldn’t be completely clean. Maybe my common sense is off center, but I generally assume that the more remote and obscure the location, the rougher it’s going to be.
One last note, from Kelsey’s description I was expecting the upper narrows to be rough. Either I’ve gained a LOT of skill in 1.5 years or it wasn’t that bad. It’s a tight slot and I got a few scrapes and bumped my head once, but a normal amount of attention to your moves will find you through the canyon with only the usual wear and tear. All of the drops were shorter than I imagined and none of them worried me that I’d be injured if I fell or slipped. Just my opinion.
– Kris Nosack