In lower Kaleidoscope/Choprock I encountered logs that had been placed at the bottom of downclimbs, making them easier. I also saw a log spanning an easy and not too deep pothole, obviously placed to make things easier. When this canyon is low on water, some of the downclimbs get higher and a bit harder, at the bottom of the drops. Not terribly harder, but somewhat so. Question…..Is this practice of placing the logs ethical? Wise? A service? a cheat? Is placing then and taking them down OK? Is placing them and leaving them OK? Is placing them just plain wrong? And why? Thoughts? Ram
Yahoo Canyons Group
stevebrezovec
If you carry out everything you bring in and don’t change the canyon, I think any tool you want to bring is fair game. After that, it’s a matter of style. I’ve gone through canyons fully wetsuited, harnessed, helmeted, and padded up, and there’s no question that each is a layer of separation between me and the canyon that diminishes the experience somewhat. I like to leave the suit and pads in camp when I can. Sometimes I like to leave behind everything but my helmet, shoes, and harness… Style matters, aim high. Not because other people care, but because it greatly increases my enjoyment, connection to the wild, and sense of accomplishment.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I thought this practice might elicit more commentary, although I had no idea what commentary. It certainly isn’t Earth shattering, but I have seen it in few other places over the years. One that comes to mind is the pipes in upper Knotted Rope/Miners Hollow. People have been using these as aids in the potholes for years.
As to Ryan’s thoughts…..is there a distinction between whether something gets left? We take most of our “stuff” with us. What do we leave? Webbing, rings, some metal (for shame! ;-)) in places, footprints, some scuff marks on the rock and a bit of trash we drop by mistake. These logs are part of the landscape, just placed strategically. A flood will send them on their way soon. I guess placing the logs for your group is OK. Capture techniques are likely better and safer, but not always conceived of, by every group.
I think I will lay the log down on the ground, near the drop the next time I see this. Anyone care to persuade me otherwise? Have another take? Just curious. > R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ryanfosterlee” wrote:
Thoughts… I think it is easier to argue that it’s not cheating… unless one wants to say that using ropes, five ten canyoneers, harnesses, biners, knee pads, aiders, neoprene, (dare I say bolts?) and/or whatever other “technology” we use to gain access to these cool places is “cheating” or “unethical”… I think there is greater satifaction in using the least amount of technology possible, but in the end, sometimes the destnation is as satisfying as the journey, and until someone makes it down Chop with nothing but their birthdy suit we are all cheaters
Ryan
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
In lower Kaleidoscope/Choprock I encountered logs that had been placed at the bottom of downclimbs, making them easier. I also saw a log spanning an easy and not too deep pothole, obviously placed to make things easier. When this canyon is low on water, some of the downclimbs get higher and a bit harder, at the bottom of the drops. Not terribly harder, but somewhat so. Question…..Is this practice of placing the logs ethical? Wise? A service? a cheat? Is placing then and taking them down OK? Is placing them and leaving them OK? Is placing them just plain wrong? And why? Thoughts?
> Ram
scott patterson
“It certainly isn’t Earth shattering, but I have seen it in few other places over the years”  I’ve seen it in many, many places over the years.   All over Canyonlands, places in Grand Gulch, last weekend in Sulphur Creek, French Spring Fork, Marinus Canyon, Subway, Junction Butte, Grand Canyon, etc., etc.  Some probably date back at least 100 years around mining claims (such as the old log on the South Face of Hillers-if it’s still there).  On ancient routes, some of the logs (such as ones in Davis Canyon) probably date back hundreds if not a thousand years.
RAM
Thanks for sharing. I thought this practice might elicit more commentary, although I had no idea what commentary. It certainly isn’t Earth shattering, but I have seen it in few other places over the years. One that comes to mind is the pipes in upper Knotted Rope/Miners Hollow. People have been using these as aids in the potholes for years.
As to Ryan’s thoughts…..is there a distinction between whether something gets left? We take most of our “stuff” with us. What do we leave? Webbing, rings, some metal (for shame! ;-)) in places, footprints, some scuff marks on the rock and a bit of trash we drop by mistake. These logs are part of the landscape, just placed strategically. A flood will send them on their way soon. I guess placing the logs for your group is OK. Capture techniques are likely better and safer, but not always conceived of, by every group.
I think I will lay the log down on the ground, near the drop the next time I see this. Anyone care to persuade me otherwise? Have another take? Just curious. R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ryanfosterlee” wrote:
Thoughts… I think it is easier to argue that it’s not cheating… unless one wants to say that using ropes, five ten canyoneers, harnesses, biners, knee pads, aiders, neoprene, (dare I say bolts?) and/or whatever other “technology” we use to gain access to these cool places is “cheating” or “unethical”… I think there is greater satifaction in using the least amount of technology possible, but in the end, sometimes the destnation is as satisfying as the journey, and until someone makes it down Chop with nothing but their birthdy suit we are all cheaters
Ryan
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
In lower Kaleidoscope/Choprock I encountered logs that had been placed at the bottom of downclimbs, making them easier. I also saw a log spanning an easy and not too deep pothole, obviously placed to make things easier. When this canyon is low on water, some of the downclimbs get higher and a bit harder, at the bottom of the drops. Not terribly harder, but somewhat so. Question…..Is this practice of placing the logs ethical? Wise? A service? a cheat? Is placing then and taking them down OK? Is placing them and leaving them OK? Is placing them just plain wrong? And why? Thoughts?
Ram
>
ryanfosterlee
Thoughts… I think it is easier to argue that it’s not cheating… unless one wants to say that using ropes, five ten canyoneers, harnesses, biners, knee pads, aiders, neoprene, (dare I say bolts?) and/or whatever other “technology” we use to gain access to these cool places is “cheating” or “unethical”… I think there is greater satifaction in using the least amount of technology possible, but in the end, sometimes the destnation is as satisfying as the journey, and until someone makes it down Chop with nothing but their birthdy suit we are all cheaters
Ryan
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
In lower Kaleidoscope/Choprock I encountered logs that had been placed at the bottom of downclimbs, making them easier. I also saw a log spanning an easy and not too deep pothole, obviously placed to make things easier. When this canyon is low on water, some of the downclimbs get higher and a bit harder, at the bottom of the drops. Not terribly harder, but somewhat so. Question…..Is this practice of placing the logs ethical? Wise? A service? a cheat? Is placing then and taking them down OK? Is placing them and leaving them OK? Is placing them just plain wrong? And why? Thoughts? > Ram >