Well, not quite. You wouldn’t need a GCNP backcountry permit, however, 4.4 Mile wash is on the Navajo Res and they require a permit for day hiking AND for overnight use. The Navajo permit can be acquired in Cameron or Page. Incidentally, the river ranger at Lee’s Ferry can issue GCNP backcountry permits and I’ve secured many there over the years. It makes doing overnight hikes below the rim in Marble Canyon more convenient. As a pack raft alternative that wouldn’t require a Navajo permit, you could do the following:
1 – go from Lee’s Ferry and exit Cathedral Wash. As a bonus, Cathedral is a darn nice slot.
2 – go in at 7 Mile Draw and raft down to the Fisherman’s exit 0.6 miles below Badger.
3 – rappel through Badger and raft down to Soap Creek to exit. Both Soap and Badger are BIG rapids for a pack raft. Prepare to swim … but it would be a fun pack raft route
Regards,
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “dsrats1”
Hi Rich, > Does this mean I can put in at Lee’s Ferry and float down to 4.4 mile wash and exit without a permit?
dsrtat1
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow”
Oh, and pack rafting for day trips is completely legal without a permit as long as you’re under 5 miles total distance.
Rich
>
Peyman Razeghi
I don’t know. May be I’m wrong. I don’t know if ultralight backpacking is correct. I have a concept. ” accident never alarm”. If you are fully professional, accident sometimes happen. I think it’s not a correct sentence “if you’re not cold, then you brought too much clothing”. We should always bring enough clothing, gear and food. I’m not saying over load our pack, but prediction of the time of trip, difficulty of track and gear we need is an art. I’m not as experience as you guys but after 10 years mountaineering still I’m learning trip by trip to how packing. One of my friends saw Reinhold Messner in base camp of Everest. He wore two feather coats. My friend asked him: “you are Messner. you are the legend, why are you wore two feather coats”. Messner answered: “I have planed on every calories of my body”. When I’m leader in a trip I also bring some additional tools that I think one of my group member team may forgot. It may add one pound to my pack but the calmness of this to my heart makes the trip more enjoyable for me.
Peyman
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Tom Jones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:
> Along those lines…
Usually attributed to John Bouchard, in regard to highly technical > mountaineering:
If you’re not scared, you brought too much gear. If you’re not cold, then > you brought too much clothing. If you’re not hungry, then you brought too > much food.
Then there is the mantra of the ultralight backpacker:
If you need something, and you don’t have it, then you don’t need it.
T
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
> —
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading > and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip > Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = > Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = > Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know > you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press > "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
aj.outdoors
The first quote is the one I was trying to remember.
Love the second ultralight backpacking one!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Along those lines…
Usually attributed to John Bouchard, in regard to highly technical mountaineering:
If you’re not scared, you brought too much gear. If you’re not cold, then you brought too much clothing. If you’re not hungry, then you brought too much food.
Then there is the mantra of the ultralight backpacker:
If you need something, and you don’t have it, then you don’t need it.
T
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
>
TomJones
Along those lines…
Usually attributed to John Bouchard, in regard to highly technical mountaineering:
If you’re not scared, you brought too much gear. If you’re not cold, then you brought too much clothing. If you’re not hungry, then you brought too much food.
Then there is the mantra of the ultralight backpacker:
If you need something, and you don’t have it, then you don’t need it.
T
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote: >
aj.outdoors
I know I’m WAY late to the game (sorry, was out on a Grand Canyon trip), but I completely agree with Tom. (Both in thanking Rich for his fantastic info and ideas, as well as using things for multiple uses.)
We just did a Cove overnight, and I was able to use a 40F down half bag (no back, full front – GoLite ~1 lb), along with a GoLite Down jacket (15 oz), and used a 1/2 thick foam rollup (.4 lb) over my wetsuit (which I used as the bottom layer of thermal ground protection) to be moderately cozy on a night that dipped below freezing temperatures. (for a total weight of less than 2.5 lbs – not including the wetsuit, but I had to carry that regardless…)
Using a foam roll over a wetsuit, while not the ultimate in comfort, works even if the wetsuit is wet (but works better when dry) and as Rich said, expedition canyoneering (or expedition anything) shouldn’t be done with total comfort in mind. Reminds me of a saying from mountaineering, “if you aren’t tired, cold and hungry; you aren’t doing it right” (or are carrying too much…)
Hope it helps, A.J.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tj_wetherell” wrote:
FWIW,
Great reductions in weight can be had by avoiding items that only serve one purpose (use your PFD as a camp pillow, westuit as additional ground insulation/pad), eliminating unnecessary redundancy in gear (everyone has their own prusik/tibloc, but only one big ascender), and really nailing your food requirements and carried water. This comes from someone who has *not* done the above, and learned valuable (painful) lessons. It requires more coordination between group members and planning, but it makes a big difference.
Of course, once you shave off that weight you might be tempted to carry 5lbs of camera gear… especially into Matkat/Olo
-tom(w)
For a sleeping system, try a “half” bag and a poofy jacket. The Western Mountaineering Tamarak is a down 30 deg bag that comes up to my armpits comfortably (I’m 5.9) and it weighs 19oz (200$) or try a synthetic North Face Elephants Foot (90$). Use a 55 gallon drum liner (garbage bag) as a cheap bivy/rain cover (and extra insurance inside your dry bag).
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
Thanks again Rich, definetly some good recommendations in there! When gearing up for the GC trips I bought some new gear to reduce weight but still refining the list…
Camp gear: Bought my first down bag exclusively for canyoneering but it’s more like 2 pounds, tried out a 2/3 stoic inflatable pad but got horrible sleep so I recently upgraded to a tapered Big agnes inflatible pad, we’ve been using tent footprints for ground cover, and still figuring which inflatable pillow I like best.
Canyon gear: Most of my ropes have shifted to either Imlay or Sterling 9mm ropes and my pullcord is collecting dust since on 3-5 person group trips I prefer a usuable rope but maybe I should dust the pullcord off and use it in the GC. I def lighten my rack for the GC but still have 1 handled ascendor that I should swap out with a 2nd ropeman… Most of my stuck ropes have been in the Grand or Marble canyon. =p I have a handful of 6mm links instead of 8mm for the GC. I haven’t built much anchors down there but I used natural color 1″ webbing, still need to pic up some black stuff. Using diff biners could def help me loose a pound of wieght…
River gear: Aaron’s boat is a big weight & size advantage over the Explorers! =) My PFD is fairly light and I guess I’m skimping with a shorty wetsuit in the winter but even when sitting in a boat full of water I stayed warm. I didn’t believe the rangers when they said the water was still 45 degrees. =p Would prob be a diff story if I flipped out and had to swim. I got tired of breaking my plastic paddles so I upgraded to aluminum ones and I prefer having the extra durability esp on a trip involving bypassing rapids.
We’ve also been rocking a jetboil for large groups. I carry tablets for backup but usually we’re using a water filter. When the river turns brown again, we’ll have to remember to use water from the side canyon pools. Yea, using the same shoes for the canyon, hiking, and river helps a lot. I also don’t bring much if any extra clothing other than what I’m weaing, wind breaker for wind & wet conditions, and a small jacket during the winter. Camping in the lower elevations and avoiding rainy weekends helps reduce the gear load… Sounds like we’re using siilar gear, though I’m using slightly heavier versions of it. =)
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Brian, it’s 4 days if you’re moving out and 5 days for it to be leisurely. If you skip Olo and do Panameta instead a day can be taken off those estimates. Take your time though – it’s one of the prettiest backpacks to be found anywhere on the planet.
vapormanb
Thanks RAM, it was an amAZing trip! =) Yep, the technical narrows was thru the Vishnu Shiest layer and the pools were only knee deep at most so we only used wetsuits during the packrafting. I caught wind of Aaron selling packrafts to the public and quickly snatched one up just in time for this trip. 😉
@brian_alleyne, thanks for the Matkat trip recommendations. Sounds like that area sees a lot of action. =p
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Love it. Congrats on you guys getting out and taking advantage of Todd’s book. Is that Vishnu Sheist layer? The canyon looks OK. No need for wet suit on the way down? The river stuff is wonderful. Nice work
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Gulag” wrote:
From the South rim in the Grand Canyon. Down the South Kaibab to the Tonto to Boulder Canyon. Camp on the beach. Day two, float down the Colorado River including 3 rapids to portage around and the hike out the Bright Angel. The Rangers checked our permits and gave us a ride the last 1/2 mile of the float.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HF5LoxTamA
brian_alleyne
Brian,
If it is the first time you’re trying out this route, I would recommend:
1) Night 1, Temple butte in 150, before big walkaround, or 50+ft rapell 2) Night 2, in muav, above Matkat hotel 3) Night 3, Esplanade 4) Night 4, Beach at Olo 5) Night 5, Top of redwall, Steck overhangs 150.
Although I did this with Rich once in 3 nights, 4 days, we had the advantage of knowing the route down 150 into Matkat down cold.
Cheers, Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Brian, it’s 4 days if you’re moving out and 5 days for it to be leisurely. If you skip Olo and do Panameta instead a day can be taken off those estimates. Take your time though – it’s one of the prettiest backpacks to be found anywhere on the planet.
Reducing pack weight comes from a bunch of little things. There is no one silver bullet. These are my trade offs in Grand Canyon and they may not be safe or appropriate in other places – YMMV:
1 – camp gear: one pound WM Highlite down bag, 3/4 length Neoair pad, 5oz Tyvek tarp. It all fits in one half of a 4oz Pacific Outdoor 15L drybag. Leave the tent at home. Bring a 2 oz space blanket to toss over your bag if it sprinkles at night. I usually watch for clear weather before canyoneering so rain is fairly rare, but I have made it through a few unexpected nights under the space blanket just fine. On the rare occasion that I bring a tent, I prefer the 19oz Tartent sublight.
2 – canyoning gear: despite the weight, nothing beats the Heaps pack in Grand Canyon for it’s combination of durability and features – period. My garage is full of other packs that no longer get used. I prefer Bluewater 8mm Canyonpro DS ropes when I have to carry the rope. It’s less than 3 pounds/100′. It’s also twice as expensive as the Imlay ropes making for a tough trade off … until you’re the guy who has to carry the big rope We always use pull cords to keep the weight down too. If you have beta, take only the length of rope required and no more … and protect the rope carefully. Use Tiblocs for your ascending system. You should require no more than 8 biners on your rack. I usually opt for HMS style biners despite the weight, because they can solve a lot of problems, but I always have a few hyper-light Trango’s too. Use 11/16″ webbing (only black in GC) instead of 1″ webbing. I’ve found the Imlay webbing to be a perfect mix of weight and strength. I won’t skimp on my harness. Too many stuck rope possibilities or big raps where extended seat time can be an issue – comfort matters to me here. The BD Momentum AL harness is 15oz in size med and is my preference. I’ve seen harnesses at 10oz and I’m tempted on some trips, but certainly not for exploration trips where I spend most of my time.
3 – River gear: Aaron’s pack rafts (Supai Adventure Gear) are the lightest and most functional available today, hands down, and are 1.5 pounds lighter than some alternatives. The MTI Journey is the lightest class III whitewater PFD I’ve found at 14oz. It’s pretty cheap too at $40. Personally, I’m not willing to carry a kayak paddle. They start at 2.25 pounds for the super expensive carbon versions. Instead, I use a paddle in each hand with a PVC handle (code name: spatulas). Weight is under 1 pound and I can keep up with the kayak paddle folks for 50 yard bursts before losing out to efficiency. I won’t get in the river without a wetsuit anymore. I’ve seen too many flips and I know my number is up sometime soon. On Winter trips I’ll use a 4×3 full, I’ll go 3×2 full in Spring, and a shorty in the Summer. Carry the lightest wetsuit you can given the canyon conditions and season.
5 – Know your water sources in advance. I often get away with just a Steripen, or tablets, or Aquamira avoiding Colorado river water. Size the stove for the group. Large group or multiple days, take a jet boil. The fuel efficiency actually makes it a lighter solution. Otherwise, take an alcohol stove. Carry only meals that you hydrate with hot water. That way you need no dishes, etc. My only utensil is a Ti Spork.
6 – leave everything else at home. Canyoneering in GC is about the beauty, not the comfort. Don’t bring camp shoes, hike in your Five-Ten’s wet or dry, limit clothes, leave the tent. Even in Winter I’ll only bring my nano puff jacket. If I’m not moving, then I’m in my bag. But I’m also VERY careful to know where I’ll be camping in Winter and I have high confidence in my ability to stay on the planned itinerary. If you’re on top of the redwall the lows often won’t go below freezing. But if you camp higher the temps can be below 20 F. I select my gear for my specific itinerary. Spread your ropes and wetsuit out at night to dry. Empty your Heaps pack too and get it vertical to dry.
In Grand Canyon, great beauty is only earned through suffering. Expedition style canyonering will never be a lightweight sport
Rich
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
Thanks Rich,
A 150-matkat-olo trip is def something I want to do after a few more packrafting trips under our belts. That’d be a weeklong trip I’m assuming? We’re still working on packing lighter; so far were more concerned we have the bare essentials and slowly being more efficient and lighter. My pack started at like 45 pounds and the food I ate didnt reduce that by much and then it was soaking wet from the river, so thinking 45-50 pounds on the hike up the LONG bright angel trail… Any insider tips for reducing weight?
I def get the feeling from others and the rangers that canyoneering/packrafting in the GC is on a short leash and it could be one bad incident from being re-examined. Not to scare others from enjoying the canyons in there, but as a warning to be more than prepared for the endevour… So overnight trips of course need a permit, but what about packrafting during a day trip? Just something short in the Marble canyon as long as you didn’t raft over 5 miles? Just curious…
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
I put about 150 river miles over about three years of short trips on Aaron’s prototype pack raft before recently getting the new production version. The production pack raft is quite an improvement! The location of the new inflation hose is far better. It also inflates and deflates about 3 times faster than the prototype boat while still allowing inflation on the fly. It’s a great solution, and at under 2 pounds, it’s nearly 1.5 pounds lighter than the old Sevylor trailboats that we used to carry. Mine packs down to the size of a Nalgene qt water bottle. I can easily do four or five day canyoneering/backpack trips with a Heaps 50 carrying my pack raft, wetsuit, ropes, rack, camp gear, food, etc.
Some river rangers (and river runners) are not supportive of pack rafts. They feel that we’re just bypassing the river permit system and poaching a river trip. Canyoneers can expect to get the third degree when they encounter NPS river patrols. But as long as canyoneers are within the five mile rule, wearing PFD’s and wetsuits, and in possession of a backcountry permit (in the correct use area) you’re good to go. I believe the river rangers will mellow out over time as they encounter more and more canyoneers following the rules. There is a lot of wacky stuff that happens on the river and I would probably get jaded too after pulling a body or two out of an eddy. But it sounds like the rangers you ran into were cool. It’s definitely a time to be cautious. The entire community will suffer if canyoneers get busted breaking rules.
Armed with your pack raft experience, you guys will need to do 150-Matkat-Olo (and/or Panamta) in the future. It’s a mind blowing loop with some of the best slots and pack rafting packed into a single loop.
Regards,
Rich
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
The new packraft worked great; such a huge plus to have a canyoneering packraft made & designed by canyoneers! Definitely worth it’s price and trying to get the others to buy one as well. =)
Yea, thankfully Boulder Beach had a big enough sandy spot to camp since we arrived so late that moving down river would have been insane… We lucked out with the weather for sure and were only lightly sprinkled on that morning and a little more the next morning. LoL, twitchy is a good word to describe their reaction to us. They were quite friendly & informative, but they were also fishing for rules we may have broken and would have busted us in a heartbeat if they could and I’m sure they thought we were flipping crazy for floating the upper Granite Gorge in glorified pool toys. One of the first questions they asked was whether we bought those boats at walmart…lol. =p They caught up to us just after Cremation canyon and at first I thought he was joking when he wanted me to dig out the permit since it was buried in a dry keg in my soaking wet pack sitting in a few inches of water from having just gone thru some waves below Cremation. But I complied and hopped on his boat and was rewarded with cookies and a nice dry ride to the Black bridge. Now I can say that I’ve been on a real raft on the Colorado River, if only for mile. 😉
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Nice video Scott. That’s a neat canyon. There is not much to camp on at Boulder Beach, but at least it doesn’t attract the river runners. I remember getting pounded there with rain one night with only a leaky space blanket for shelter. Glad you guys were legal too. From my experience the river rangers are very twitchy toward pack rafts. Looks like they were friendly enough to give you guys a ride to boat beach and you’re out there showing the NPS that canyoneers are following the rules. I noticed that Brian was sporting one of Arizona Aaron’s rafts. How did it work out?
Regards,
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Gulag” wrote:
From the South rim in the Grand Canyon. Down the South Kaibab to the Tonto to Boulder Canyon. Camp on the beach. Day two, float down the Colorado River including 3 rapids to portage around and the hike out the Bright Angel. The Rangers checked our permits and gave us a ride the last 1/2 mile of the float.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HF5LoxTamA
RAM
Pictures to die for! Thanks for sharing them! Redwall, Temple Butte and Mauv layers? Winners all!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tj_wetherell” wrote:
Ok Rich,
Here you go, the product of haulin the big camera: > http://tinyurl.com/84hv9vo
> Here is the full set o’ pics for that wonderful trip: > http://tinyurl.com/3mw7wag
> At least I didn’t suffer from RTF (Ransom Trench Foot)
-t
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Tom, I’m still waiting to see the product of that 5 lbs of camera gear
A few other weight savers: I’ve been using the Petzl Meteor helmet for 3 years and I like it a lot. It saved 8oz over my old helmet. Todd has been using the Black Diamond Tracer which is a 9oz helmet. I’ve also been using AL rap rings or 7mm AL rapides. They’re plenty strong but WAY lighter than steal. Perhaps they’re not as appropriate for trade routes, but there won’t ever be many trade routes in GC. I’m still more fond of my Western Mountaineering Highlite 35F bag over the Tamarak since it’s 3 oz lighter. I’ve had it down to freezing with my thermal underwear on with no problems. Sometimes I will bring either my Western Mountaineering down vest (6 oz)or jacket (11 oz) depending on conditions. BTW – WM just introduced a 3.5 oz vest! The WM gear is simply the best for weight to performance. I’ve used my Pac Outdoor 15L dry bag for a pillow for years and brought a 2oz fleece cover for it. But then I found the Montbell inflatable pillow at 2oz with a built in divot for my head – it’s really good, and I leave the fleece cover at home since the Montbell pillow stays in place under my Highlite.
It’s definitely a game of an ounce here and there. There are few places where you’ll find pounds of savings. My sleep system is down to 36 oz total which includes dry bag, sleeping bag, tarp, pillow, sleeping pad). My pack raft kit is down to 3.75 pounds including raft, paddles, and PFD. I could shave 4 oz off that if I switched back to the horse collar PFD instead of the MTI Journey, but it looks like the NPS is going to require class III PFD’s so I’ll eat the 4 oz there.
Rich
Of course, once you shave off that weight you might be tempted to carry 5lbs of camera gear… especially into Matkat/Olo
-tom(w)
For a sleeping system, try a “half” bag and a poofy jacket. The Western Mountaineering Tamarak is a down 30 deg bag that comes up to my armpits comfortably (I’m 5.9) and it weighs 19oz (200$) or try a synthetic North Face Elephants Foot (90$). Use a 55 gallon drum liner (garbage bag) as a cheap bivy/rain cover (and extra insurance inside your dry bag).
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
Thanks again Rich, definetly some good recommendations in there! When gearing up for the GC trips I bought some new gear to reduce weight but still refining the list…
Camp gear: Bought my first down bag exclusively for canyoneering but it’s more like 2 pounds, tried out a 2/3 stoic inflatable pad but got horrible sleep so I recently upgraded to a tapered Big agnes inflatible pad, we’ve been using tent footprints for ground cover, and still figuring which inflatable pillow I like best.
Canyon gear: Most of my ropes have shifted to either Imlay or Sterling 9mm ropes and my pullcord is collecting dust since on 3-5 person group trips I prefer a usuable rope but maybe I should dust the pullcord off and use it in the GC. I def lighten my rack for the GC but still have 1 handled ascendor that I should swap out with a 2nd ropeman… Most of my stuck ropes have been in the Grand or Marble canyon. =p I have a handful of 6mm links instead of 8mm for the GC. I haven’t built much anchors down there but I used natural color 1″ webbing, still need to pic up some black stuff. Using diff biners could def help me loose a pound of wieght…
River gear: Aaron’s boat is a big weight & size advantage over the Explorers! =) My PFD is fairly light and I guess I’m skimping with a shorty wetsuit in the winter but even when sitting in a boat full of water I stayed warm. I didn’t believe the rangers when they said the water was still 45 degrees. =p Would prob be a diff story if I flipped out and had to swim. I got tired of breaking my plastic paddles so I upgraded to aluminum ones and I prefer having the extra durability esp on a trip involving bypassing rapids.
We’ve also been rocking a jetboil for large groups. I carry tablets for backup but usually we’re using a water filter. When the river turns brown again, we’ll have to remember to use water from the side canyon pools. Yea, using the same shoes for the canyon, hiking, and river helps a lot. I also don’t bring much if any extra clothing other than what I’m weaing, wind breaker for wind & wet conditions, and a small jacket during the winter. Camping in the lower elevations and avoiding rainy weekends helps reduce the gear load… Sounds like we’re using siilar gear, though I’m using slightly heavier versions of it. =)
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Brian, it’s 4 days if you’re moving out and 5 days for it to be leisurely. If you skip Olo and do Panameta instead a day can be taken off those estimates. Take your time though – it’s one of the prettiest backpacks to be found anywhere on the planet.
>
RAM
AWESOME POST! Thanks Rich. Years of experience there for the taking. And thanks for the lend of the sleeping bag a few weeks back. Pictures coming soon! Ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Brian, it’s 4 days if you’re moving out and 5 days for it to be leisurely. If you skip Olo and do Panameta instead a day can be taken off those estimates. Take your time though – it’s one of the prettiest backpacks to be found anywhere on the planet.
Reducing pack weight comes from a bunch of little things. There is no one silver bullet. These are my trade offs in Grand Canyon and they may not be safe or appropriate in other places – YMMV:
1 – camp gear: one pound WM Highlite down bag, 3/4 length Neoair pad, 5oz Tyvek tarp. It all fits in one half of a 4oz Pacific Outdoor 15L drybag. Leave the tent at home. Bring a 2 oz space blanket to toss over your bag if it sprinkles at night. I usually watch for clear weather before canyoneering so rain is fairly rare, but I have made it through a few unexpected nights under the space blanket just fine. On the rare occasion that I bring a tent, I prefer the 19oz Tartent sublight.
2 – canyoning gear: despite the weight, nothing beats the Heaps pack in Grand Canyon for it’s combination of durability and features – period. My garage is full of other packs that no longer get used. I prefer Bluewater 8mm Canyonpro DS ropes when I have to carry the rope. It’s less than 3 pounds/100′. It’s also twice as expensive as the Imlay ropes making for a tough trade off … until you’re the guy who has to carry the big rope We always use pull cords to keep the weight down too. If you have beta, take only the length of rope required and no more … and protect the rope carefully. Use Tiblocs for your ascending system. You should require no more than 8 biners on your rack. I usually opt for HMS style biners despite the weight, because they can solve a lot of problems, but I always have a few hyper-light Trango’s too. Use 11/16″ webbing (only black in GC) instead of 1″ webbing. I’ve found the Imlay webbing to be a perfect mix of weight and strength. I won’t skimp on my harness. Too many stuck rope possibilities or big raps where extended seat time can be an issue – comfort matters to me here. The BD Momentum AL harness is 15oz in size med and is my preference. I’ve seen harnesses at 10oz and I’m tempted on some trips, but certainly not for exploration trips where I spend most of my time.
3 – River gear: Aaron’s pack rafts (Supai Adventure Gear) are the lightest and most functional available today, hands down, and are 1.5 pounds lighter than some alternatives. The MTI Journey is the lightest class III whitewater PFD I’ve found at 14oz. It’s pretty cheap too at $40. Personally, I’m not willing to carry a kayak paddle. They start at 2.25 pounds for the super expensive carbon versions. Instead, I use a paddle in each hand with a PVC handle (code name: spatulas). Weight is under 1 pound and I can keep up with the kayak paddle folks for 50 yard bursts before losing out to efficiency. I won’t get in the river without a wetsuit anymore. I’ve seen too many flips and I know my number is up sometime soon. On Winter trips I’ll use a 4×3 full, I’ll go 3×2 full in Spring, and a shorty in the Summer. Carry the lightest wetsuit you can given the canyon conditions and season.
5 – Know your water sources in advance. I often get away with just a Steripen, or tablets, or Aquamira avoiding Colorado river water. Size the stove for the group. Large group or multiple days, take a jet boil. The fuel efficiency actually makes it a lighter solution. Otherwise, take an alcohol stove. Carry only meals that you hydrate with hot water. That way you need no dishes, etc. My only utensil is a Ti Spork.
6 – leave everything else at home. Canyoneering in GC is about the beauty, not the comfort. Don’t bring camp shoes, hike in your Five-Ten’s wet or dry, limit clothes, leave the tent. Even in Winter I’ll only bring my nano puff jacket. If I’m not moving, then I’m in my bag. But I’m also VERY careful to know where I’ll be camping in Winter and I have high confidence in my ability to stay on the planned itinerary. If you’re on top of the redwall the lows often won’t go below freezing. But if you camp higher the temps can be below 20 F. I select my gear for my specific itinerary. Spread your ropes and wetsuit out at night to dry. Empty your Heaps pack too and get it vertical to dry.
In Grand Canyon, great beauty is only earned through suffering. Expedition style canyonering will never be a lightweight sport
Rich
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
Thanks Rich,
A 150-matkat-olo trip is def something I want to do after a few more packrafting trips under our belts. That’d be a weeklong trip I’m assuming? We’re still working on packing lighter; so far were more concerned we have the bare essentials and slowly being more efficient and lighter. My pack started at like 45 pounds and the food I ate didnt reduce that by much and then it was soaking wet from the river, so thinking 45-50 pounds on the hike up the LONG bright angel trail… Any insider tips for reducing weight?
I def get the feeling from others and the rangers that canyoneering/packrafting in the GC is on a short leash and it could be one bad incident from being re-examined. Not to scare others from enjoying the canyons in there, but as a warning to be more than prepared for the endevour… So overnight trips of course need a permit, but what about packrafting during a day trip? Just something short in the Marble canyon as long as you didn’t raft over 5 miles? Just curious…
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
I put about 150 river miles over about three years of short trips on Aaron’s prototype pack raft before recently getting the new production version. The production pack raft is quite an improvement! The location of the new inflation hose is far better. It also inflates and deflates about 3 times faster than the prototype boat while still allowing inflation on the fly. It’s a great solution, and at under 2 pounds, it’s nearly 1.5 pounds lighter than the old Sevylor trailboats that we used to carry. Mine packs down to the size of a Nalgene qt water bottle. I can easily do four or five day canyoneering/backpack trips with a Heaps 50 carrying my pack raft, wetsuit, ropes, rack, camp gear, food, etc.
Some river rangers (and river runners) are not supportive of pack rafts. They feel that we’re just bypassing the river permit system and poaching a river trip. Canyoneers can expect to get the third degree when they encounter NPS river patrols. But as long as canyoneers are within the five mile rule, wearing PFD’s and wetsuits, and in possession of a backcountry permit (in the correct use area) you’re good to go. I believe the river rangers will mellow out over time as they encounter more and more canyoneers following the rules. There is a lot of wacky stuff that happens on the river and I would probably get jaded too after pulling a body or two out of an eddy. But it sounds like the rangers you ran into were cool. It’s definitely a time to be cautious. The entire community will suffer if canyoneers get busted breaking rules.
Armed with your pack raft experience, you guys will need to do 150-Matkat-Olo (and/or Panamta) in the future. It’s a mind blowing loop with some of the best slots and pack rafting packed into a single loop.
Regards,
Rich
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
The new packraft worked great; such a huge plus to have a canyoneering packraft made & designed by canyoneers! Definitely worth it’s price and trying to get the others to buy one as well. =)
Yea, thankfully Boulder Beach had a big enough sandy spot to camp since we arrived so late that moving down river would have been insane… We lucked out with the weather for sure and were only lightly sprinkled on that morning and a little more the next morning. LoL, twitchy is a good word to describe their reaction to us. They were quite friendly & informative, but they were also fishing for rules we may have broken and would have busted us in a heartbeat if they could and I’m sure they thought we were flipping crazy for floating the upper Granite Gorge in glorified pool toys. One of the first questions they asked was whether we bought those boats at walmart…lol. =p They caught up to us just after Cremation canyon and at first I thought he was joking when he wanted me to dig out the permit since it was buried in a dry keg in my soaking wet pack sitting in a few inches of water from having just gone thru some waves below Cremation. But I complied and hopped on his boat and was rewarded with cookies and a nice dry ride to the Black bridge. Now I can say that I’ve been on a real raft on the Colorado River, if only for mile. 😉
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Nice video Scott. That’s a neat canyon. There is not much to camp on at Boulder Beach, but at least it doesn’t attract the river runners. I remember getting pounded there with rain one night with only a leaky space blanket for shelter. Glad you guys were legal too. From my experience the river rangers are very twitchy toward pack rafts. Looks like they were friendly enough to give you guys a ride to boat beach and you’re out there showing the NPS that canyoneers are following the rules. I noticed that Brian was sporting one of Arizona Aaron’s rafts. How did it work out?
Regards,
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Gulag” wrote:
From the South rim in the Grand Canyon. Down the South Kaibab to the Tonto to Boulder Canyon. Camp on the beach. Day two, float down the Colorado River including 3 rapids to portage around and the hike out the Bright Angel. The Rangers checked our permits and gave us a ride the last 1/2 mile of the float.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HF5LoxTamA
RAM
WOW! Is this Arizona Aaron making rafts for the public? I remember the prototype off Tanner Creek. Good on um!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dan” wrote:
http://supaiadventuregear.com/
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adam” wrote:
Rich,
How would one procure one of Arizona Aaron’s packrafts? I am going to be doing Shinumo in April and I am slighty apprehensive about floating down the Colorado in a $15 pool toy! >
RAM
Love it. Congrats on you guys getting out and taking advantage of Todd’s book. Is that Vishnu Sheist layer? The canyon looks OK. No need for wet suit on the way down? The river stuff is wonderful. Nice work
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Gulag” wrote:
From the South rim in the Grand Canyon. Down the South Kaibab to the Tonto to Boulder Canyon. Camp on the beach. Day two, float down the Colorado River including 3 rapids to portage around and the hike out the Bright Angel. The Rangers checked our permits and gave us a ride the last 1/2 mile of the float. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HF5LoxTamA
tj_wetherell
Yo Flute!
By “Big” ascender I meant anything larger than a tibloc or ropeman – I probably should have said “bigger”, or maybe “massive and bulky”… I too dance the frog and am a big fan of the micro or mini traxion.
I also agree with experimenting with each system. Care is always required. For instance, with thin ropes, a *smooth* technique which does not “saw” the rope against the rock can go a long way to extending its life, and your own. Lots of anxiety with the tibloc can be eliminated by using a Petzl Attache (not the “3d” version) with small ropes, “setting” the teeth before weighting, which becomes second nature, and running the rope through the carabiner to help direct the rope into the teeth. I believe Charly Oliver and T. Jones have posted these tidbits previously.
-tom(w)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “flutedwalls” wrote:
“Only One Big Ascender?” Why not a medium sized mechanical ascender?
Potential planned or emergency (mechanical) ascending gear. Petzl Product.
Petzl Tibloc 39g; (new) Petzl Micro Traxion 85g, Petzl Basic 135g, Petzl Croll 130g
Years ago I gave up (for canyoneering purposes) handled jumars or Petzl or BD handled ascenders. If using the “frog method”, the Basic is more efficient with the hand, arm and shoulder motion than a handled unit. In a bind and with care the tibloc can be used safely – I though prefer not use it; seen slips and tears in 8mm line. For long planned ascents, using the frog method, we use a Basic & Croll. Tried a new Micro Traxion two weeks ago, it’s light and works on 8mm lines and is easy to engage and disengage. For ascending +-? (adds the dimension of a rescue pulley with a mechanical grab. A prusic is preferable though in my view if there is a large load.) I think folk should try systems, climb 30,50, 100 ft and learn advantages,(function) & disadvantages (weight)before finalizing a buy or planning to use on a trip. (please, I know, some folk, like/love their light tiblocs & prusic’s). If I have to ascend with that stuff though – yikes!
So interesting, balancing GC weight/gear/risk/safety/efficiency. Kudos to RR for his intricate analysis.
As to bags, I’ve used lite WM bags for years in the desert(and mountains). A positive vote there.
Was in the GC after XMAS, the beauty of the place is remarkable; I compliment you AZ travelers; I’d love to join up sometime. T’s posted photos, a reminder of natures gift and wonder (and the photog’s good eye; light, reflection, composition)
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tj_wetherell” wrote: > (everyone has their own prusik/tibloc, but only one big ascender), >
flutedwalls
“Only One Big Ascender?” Why not a medium sized mechanical ascender?
Potential planned or emergency (mechanical) ascending gear. Petzl Product.
Petzl Tibloc 39g; (new) Petzl Micro Traxion 85g, Petzl Basic 135g, Petzl Croll 130g
Years ago I gave up (for canyoneering purposes) handled jumars or Petzl or BD handled ascenders. If using the “frog method”, the Basic is more efficient with the hand, arm and shoulder motion than a handled unit. In a bind and with care the tibloc can be used safely – I though prefer not use it; seen slips and tears in 8mm line. For long planned ascents, using the frog method, we use a Basic & Croll. Tried a new Micro Traxion two weeks ago, it’s light and works on 8mm lines and is easy to engage and disengage. For ascending +-? (adds the dimension of a rescue pulley with a mechanical grab. A prusic is preferable though in my view if there is a large load.) I think folk should try systems, climb 30,50, 100 ft and learn advantages,(function) & disadvantages (weight)before finalizing a buy or planning to use on a trip. (please, I know, some folk, like/love their light tiblocs & prusic’s). If I have to ascend with that stuff though – yikes!
So interesting, balancing GC weight/gear/risk/safety/efficiency. Kudos to RR for his intricate analysis.
As to bags, I’ve used lite WM bags for years in the desert(and mountains). A positive vote there.
Was in the GC after XMAS, the beauty of the place is remarkable; I compliment you AZ travelers; I’d love to join up sometime. T’s posted photos, a reminder of natures gift and wonder (and the photog’s good eye; light, reflection, composition)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tj_wetherell” wrote: (everyone has their own prusik/tibloc, but only one big ascender),
dsrats1
Rich, Thanks for the information.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Well, not quite. You wouldn’t need a GCNP backcountry permit, however, 4.4 Mile wash is on the Navajo Res and they require a permit for day hiking AND for overnight use. The Navajo permit can be acquired in Cameron or Page. Incidentally, the river ranger at Lee’s Ferry can issue GCNP backcountry permits and I’ve secured many there over the years. It makes doing overnight hikes below the rim in Marble Canyon more convenient. As a pack raft alternative that wouldn’t require a Navajo permit, you could do the following:
1 – go from Lee’s Ferry and exit Cathedral Wash. As a bonus, Cathedral is a darn nice slot.
2 – go in at 7 Mile Draw and raft down to the Fisherman’s exit 0.6 miles below Badger.
3 – rappel through Badger and raft down to Soap Creek to exit. Both Soap and Badger are BIG rapids for a pack raft. Prepare to swim … but it would be a fun pack raft route
> Regards,
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “dsrats1” wrote:
Hi Rich,
Does this mean I can put in at Lee’s Ferry and float down to 4.4 mile wash and exit without a permit?
dsrtat1
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Oh, and pack rafting for day trips is completely legal without a permit as long as you’re under 5 miles total distance.
Rich
tj_wetherell
BTW,
One comment I neglected to insert earlier:
Don’t figure out if your pack/gear/load is “right” ON a trip in the Grand Canyon. Instead, go car camping or on an overnight in a less remote place where the price of failure is not as great. One area where this can really point out your weaknesses is when dropping so much altitude with a heavy pack. First day (heaviest pack) off the rim down to the river can really stress muscles, and then haunt you the rest of the trip.
This may be common sense, but…..
-tom(w)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
Thanks Tom & Rich for the gear recommendations. I might need to get a second job just to afford the super light gear. =p Funny thing I totally used to sleep on my wetsuit back when my sleeping pad was too big, but I’ve totally forgot about that now that I bought a better pad. Got a new inflatable pillow in the mail and I’ll see how that feels & weighs… I’ll have to remember to throw a large trash bag in the pack next time there’s rain in the forecast. We lucked out last weekend…
Put another half mile or so of packraft canyoneering on the new raft at Canyon Lake. =)
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Tom, I’m still waiting to see the product of that 5 lbs of camera gear
A few other weight savers: I’ve been using the Petzl Meteor helmet for 3 years and I like it a lot. It saved 8oz over my old helmet. Todd has been using the Black Diamond Tracer which is a 9oz helmet. I’ve also been using AL rap rings or 7mm AL rapides. They’re plenty strong but WAY lighter than steal. Perhaps they’re not as appropriate for trade routes, but there won’t ever be many trade routes in GC. I’m still more fond of my Western Mountaineering Highlite 35F bag over the Tamarak since it’s 3 oz lighter. I’ve had it down to freezing with my thermal underwear on with no problems. Sometimes I will bring either my Western Mountaineering down vest (6 oz)or jacket (11 oz) depending on conditions. BTW – WM just introduced a 3.5 oz vest! The WM gear is simply the best for weight to performance. I’ve used my Pac Outdoor 15L dry bag for a pillow for years and brought a 2oz fleece cover for it. But then I found the Montbell inflatable pillow at 2oz with a built in divot for my head – it’s really good, and I leave the fleece cover at home since the Montbell pillow stays in place under my Highlite.
It’s definitely a game of an ounce here and there. There are few places where you’ll find pounds of savings. My sleep system is down to 36 oz total which includes dry bag, sleeping bag, tarp, pillow, sleeping pad). My pack raft kit is down to 3.75 pounds including raft, paddles, and PFD. I could shave 4 oz off that if I switched back to the horse collar PFD instead of the MTI Journey, but it looks like the NPS is going to require class III PFD’s so I’ll eat the 4 oz there.
Rich >