Interesting point DNally.
How about this. What happens when a party REFUSES a rescue. Still gonna get charged then? If people know they will be charged, that their insurance may not cover it (due to inherently dangerous activity), that the costs will be significant?
Not being an expert (in anything) I’d say that charging for a rescue is no guarantee of a rescue. Thus, my position that if you go into wild places you should expect no assistance. Period. Cruel? That is your personal decision.
-tom(w)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “dNally”
I’m not a legal expert, but it seems that starting to charge people for rescues leads down a slippery slope for everyone involved. If they are charging for a ‘service’, then it implies there is some sort of value that both parties are giving or receiving in exchange. If the SAR team is late, or slow, or damages, or accidently kills the victim, then it seems a lawsuit would be inevitable, since not only does the SAR group have funds, but by setting a price they are implying that a reasonable and professional service is implied or guaranteed. Right now I think there are good samaritan type laws on the books in many places, which make it so that volunteers cannot be sued when they are acting on their best in good faith to help someone. This type of legal protection to the SAR group and the individuals might be thrown out in the case when a bill is sent to the rescued party.
dNally
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “charlybldr”
> Well, if your not an expert or a trusted source, perhaps you could leave my question to be answered by someone who is in the know.
> I think my question deserves some serious debate. Should SAR’s in Utah start billing? When to bill? Can you bill stupidity? Arrogance? I don’t remember checking a box stating that a rescue in Zions will cost me upwards of $$$???? when I get my permits.
RAM
One of the topics discussed at the last board meeting. Answer is yes. Its on one of the middle or back burners
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Louis Johnson wrote:
Very good and constructive read.
Could a pool for SAR be created through American Canyoneers?
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 12:42 PM, charlybldr wrote:
> **
> Well, if your not an expert or a trusted source, perhaps you could leave
my question to be answered by someone who is in the know.
> I think my question deserves some serious debate. Should SAR’s in Utah
start billing? When to bill? Can you bill stupidity? Arrogance? I don’t
remember checking a box stating that a rescue in Zions will cost me upwards
of $$$???? when I get my permits.
Found this interesting article on the subject.
> http://www.backpacker.com/blogs/62
> Nick
> Ok. How about this?
Whether or not people should be charged for SAR services is a very hot
topic. Although never funded to the degree they would like SAR teams are
typically reluctant to charge for their services for a number of reasons.
First of all, they pride themselves on providing an invaluable service for
anyone in need. It is hard to argue that this approach is not good.
Presumably, the service exists for people actually in need. And the service
providers do so unselfishly. Second, if victims are charged, quite an
expensive proposition even in the simplest rescues, they may be reluctant
to call for help in time of need. If this reluctance results in the victims
debilitation or death… then why have the SAR services in the first place?
The problem we see here in the U.S. is that inexperienced people tend to
feel entitled to rescue, and so just go for it. They don’t seem to care
that rescues are expensive and rescuers are put in harm’s way the minute
they grab their kits and go. So should inexperience people who put
themselves in harm’s way without consideration of expense or others safety
get the bill? Personally, I think they should. But deciding who is and who
is not deserving is a gray area and no one wants to the one to make that
call. The proliferation of PEB’s and similar services has only complicated
the issue.
In the Alps a climber can purchase rescue insurance. You go for it and get
in deep shit, you just call for a rescue. A humorous cartoon in Mountain
Magazine years ago showed a rescue helicopter approaching stranded climbers
waving a Visa card… But maybe this is the correct approach? The Ouray
Mountain Rescue truck sports MC/Visa/Amex logos with more than a little
irony.
For the most part here in the U.S., rescue is provided free of charge.
Costs are underwritten by our taxes and the occasional rescue fund from
which SAR teams can go for reimbursement of rescue expenses. Colorado has
the CORSAR card (
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/DOLA-Main/CBON/1251592090523) that
creates a fund from which SAR teams can get reimbursed for rescue expenses.
If any of you spend time in the Colorado backcountry I strongly recommend
you purchase this card. $12 for five years of coverage isn’t just cheap,
it’s stupid cheap. And, the money goes to a good cause. I do not believe
Utah offers this. But they should. As yet even the American Alpine Club has
not successfully established a rescue insurance program. Perhaps this is a
project the American Canyoneers should consider taking on?
But the bottom line is personal responsibility. People venturing into the
backcountry need to clearly understand what they are getting into and must
be willing to take responsibility for their actions. And it is our
responsibility, as members of the canyoning community, to communicate the
importance of this position to our peers. It all starts here!
We must all, in our personal lives as well as in on-line forums such as
this, encourage taking personal responsibility for our actions. In two
separate but related incidents in Ouray this summer, the “victims” rescued
themselves. They took their responsibility seriously, cowboyed up and got
themselves out of their predicament. They could have called for rescue!
They had an operational cell phone and could easily have punched 911. But
they didn’t. In two other incidents serious injuries involved. In these
cases the call for rescue was appropriate.
Did these folks in Heaps deserve rescue? Probably. They got in way over
their heads and would surely have perished if left to their own devices.
Did they take personal responsibility seriously? It doesn’t appear so, or
they would not have jumped into Heaps with such a cavalier attitude. It is
this type of behavior the community needs to strongly discourage. If
charging them for their rescue discourages others from this type of
behavior. Maybe that’s a good thing?
> >
Randi
Ha ha – that’s funny Tom!
But I don’t agree with the last part – about not expecting a rescue. I’ve been able to self rescue a couple of times when I was injured in the back-county, but I would really hope that if I became injured or lost & couldn’t self-rescue at some point, that my friends/contacts would be able to get me some help. And I’d hope that x10 for my children and friends who might get hurt out lost out there. I had a scare a few months ago when both of my daughters went out hiking on a workday in a rugged remote wilderness area. They left early in the AM as I was leaving for work. They didn’t tell me what time they’d be back, but my eldest daughter was starting a new job – her first career job the following day. Well by the time 8 PM rolled around and neither girl was answering their cell phones I was worried. 9 PM – no word. By 10 PM  I was frantic and I called the police to file a missing persons report. Then I headed out to try and find them myself, even as the cops were preparing to do so. Luckily, I got a call from Sarah before getting too far. They had apparently been lost for hours, but fortunately, ran into a couple of stoners (good guys thank god) who helped them find their way. But had they not been able to find their way, I would hope that services would be available to search for them.What if your wife was missing out there in some wilderness area? It could be personal for any one of us. I’m not certain of this, but I think if it was close to home (one of your loved ones) you’d feel differently.
— On Wed, 10/17/12, rging@q.com rging@q.com> wrote:
From: rging@q.com rging@q.com> Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Heaps rescue To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Wednesday, October 17, 2012, 11:15 AM
ÂÂ
I am in the process of building a space ship and if it craps out near mars I damn well expect someone to rescue me. Let’s see how the 911 operator handles that call.
——–
Not being an expert (in anything) I’d say that charging for a rescue is no guarantee of a rescue. Thus, my position that if you go into wild places you should expect no assistance. Period. Cruel? That is your personal decision.
-tom(w)
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I am in the process of building a space ship and if it craps out near mars I damn well expect someone to rescue me. Let’s see how the 911 operator handles that call.
——– Not being an expert (in anything) I’d say that charging for a rescue is no guarantee of a rescue. Thus, my position that if you go into wild places you should expect no assistance. Period. Cruel? That is your personal decision.
-tom(w)
Nick
How about in the case of Zion SAR, provide an optional box to check when picking up your permits that costs you a small fee for trip insurance.
The profits go toward ZSAR?
Nick