In my view of adventure, I like to eliminate or reduce the things that could injure or kill me out of randomness. My idea of adventure is that I challenge myself by attempting things that require more and more skill and experience to avoid the injury/death; but the things that persist in being totally random and out of control, I protect myself from those things with equipment. I don’t really see the thrill of going out without a helmet and saying “ooooo let me see if the dice roll in my favor and I don’t get cracked today. What a rush!” My hope is that helmets in canyoneering become like helmets in mountain biking and kayaking…anyone seen on the trail/river without one is deemed a consumate idiot or obvious newbie. Those of you who boat will notice that no one kayaks without a helmet. I mean no one. Like I’ve NEVER seen it. And I’ve been cracked canyoneering almost as many times as I’ve been roughtumbled kayaking. I’m sure someone will come back with a “shut-up-you-prophesier-of-doom” post, so I’ll say: IMHO, YMMV.
p.s. gosh all this makes me think about why I don’t wear a helmet sport climbing…oh wait yeah I do, I forgot… Steve (hit-by-a-car-goin-30mph-head-on-into-me-on-my-bike-without-a-helmet-and-liv ed) Brezovec Cars are random and out of control.
Steve Brezovec
WOAH…… Yes though the tongue was in cheek, I stick to my corporate oppressor stance. Stop moderating people on this list. The list says unmoderated and that is a boldface lie. Did I just say that out loud? Re: helmets…. No suggestion was made to “regulate” anything. I’m talking about peer pressure, culture, ethics, and leading by example. I have never told any of the St. George teenagers I’ve seen in Pine/Mystery/Keyhole that they should be wearing helmets. I just wear my helmet and say nice things to them. I’m suggesting we foster the idea of helmets being “cool”. People like to be “cool”. And then OOops they’re accidentaly safe….
> —–Original Message—– > From: rcwildone [mailto:rcwild@wildernessmail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:53 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Helmet Diatribe…
> Steve,
Corporate oppressor ?? Ouch, that hurts.
For the record — the ACA would like to promote safety (including > helmet use) through education and dissemination of information (e.g. > info booklet), but has no desire or intention to lobby for regulation.
Rich
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rcwildone
Steve,
Corporate oppressor ?? Ouch, that hurts.
For the record — the ACA would like to promote safety (including helmet use) through education and dissemination of information (e.g. info booklet), but has no desire or intention to lobby for regulation.
Rich
Steve Brezovec
Exactly my point, Matt. Fashion and perception steers, I’m afraid. I am reasonably certain that the fact that half of the people on the tram at snowbird are wearing helmets is not because “it’s safe.” Was it any less a safe idea five years ago? They’re doing it because perceptions have been changed, the cool kids are doing it, and the populace follows. Five more years and a helmetless head on the tram will be looked upon with scorn. I’m a rebel by nature and always like going against the flow but I would have no problem if the corporate oppressor ACA led the charge in the pro helmet stance.
moabmatt
When guiding, I sometimes notice that those who aren’t interested in wearing a helmet are usually those who are overly concerned about how they look or how their peers percieve their activities (for example, whether or not they’re doing something gnarly enough). Oftentimes, these are folks who are canyoneering because they view it as nothing more than a crazy, adrenaline-inducing, thrill sport.
So, one angle I use to get these kinda clients excited about wearing a helmet is to tell them it makes for better pictures (it’s all about vanity, after all). I ensure them that when their friends and potential lovers look at the pictures from their trip, the fact that they’re wearing a helmet makes things look “more gnarly” than if they weren’t wearing a helmet.
I think that sometimes you have to emphasize the “you look cool” angle rather than the “you’re being safe” angle.
Moab Matt
>My hope is that helmets in canyoneering become > like helmets in mountain biking and kayaking…anyone seen on the > trail/river without one is deemed a consumate idiot or obvious newbie. > Those of you who boat will notice that no one kayaks without a helmet. I > mean no one. Like I’ve NEVER seen it. And I’ve been cracked canyoneering > almost as many times as I’ve been roughtumbled kayaking. I’m sure someone > will come back with a “shut-up-you-prophesier-of-doom” post, so I’ll say: > IMHO, YMMV.
rcwildone
> Even something for Rich… >
Huh ?? Helmets for teambuilding ?? Why, I never heard of such a silly…
Hmmmm. Ya ‘spose it’d earn me some points with the insurance company? Imagine 100+ corporate types on the grounds of a Scottsdale resort all wearing helmets as they pass each other through the giant spider web. If one of them were accidently dropped on his head, even from 3 or 4 feet…
Driving some finish nails into the recessed ceiling in the kitchen last night and dropped one on my head. Coulda been the hammer. Helmets for home improvement?
Daughters playing with their Barbies the other day. Little one whopped the big one on the head with Ken. Helmets for play?
Wife hanging upside down from the trapeze over the bed. Helmets for …?
Rich
beadysee
— In canyons@y…, Steve Brezovec wrote: > I owe you $10. There everyone heard me say it… > How ironic that the picture is next to another picture of a guy with a dime-size hemoragghing hole in his head. > Touch me up for lunch this week…
I will exact my payment in the second grade playground descent of Maybird or Hogum Fork…sans helmet…saturday, mr. knuckledragger. Scott, you in? I won’t bother inviting Tom, he just skis in area with girls…
We should take Jen along so we can watch her swim the creek…
Can’t wait to be made fun of…anyone know how to get urine stains out of Schoeller fabric?
Point taken, Steve. Wearin’ a helmet (and a seatbelt in the car ie head on at 60mph on longbeach freeway and I walked away) is just plain smart. Have had several friends with brain injuries. I hear what yer sayin’.
Which makes it all the more interesting why some of us still don’t wear them from time to time…hmmm….
Adventure = Beauty. Jump on it, Roger…(maybe he can break trail…)
Brian in SLC
Jennifer ODonnell
I think guys who wear helmets are studs…
>From: Steve Brezovec steveb@edaarch.com
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: “‘canyons@yahoogroups.com'” Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:17:48 -0700
I know I should drop this but I can’t cause it’s fun… >I went to google, typed in whitewater kayaker, browsed 25 pages of images >before giving up. Send me a URL, bro brah, cuz I don’t see a single >helmetless kayaker (yes hardshell, in whitewater) in the mix… >My point? How does this relate to canyoneering? >I don’t have one and it doesn’t. >Oh except for this: Helmet wearing is sorta a peer-pressure cool-guy >incultured thing, that I think we in this group can play a roll in >fostering. If people get the idea that wearing helmets is for the cool >kids >and not the dorks, more people will wear their helmets and (no sh!t) lives >will be saved. Ego I’m probably too personally close to this one as I >may/may not have a brain injury from my car wreck and my younger sister >definitely has a life-debilitating one. I am a huge fan of helmets. >Yes you still have the right to not wear your helmet in canyons. But if I >see you I will make fun of you until you cry like a 2nd grader on the >playground.
> OK, here goes Stevie, just do this since it is how I found them all
and they are there. Go to google, go to the images section and just
type “whitewater kayaking” look through there for about 15 pages
and you will see a few.
–scott
_______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
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Tom
— In canyons@y…, Steve Brezovec wrote: > I owe you $10. There everyone heard me say it… > How ironic that the picture is next to another picture of a guy with a > dime-size hemoragghing hole in his head. > Touch me up for lunch this week…
Steve Brezovec
I owe you $10. There everyone heard me say it… How ironic that the picture is next to another picture of a guy with a dime-size hemoragghing hole in his head. Touch me up for lunch this week… >
scotth@payrollperfect.com
> Post an image to the yahoo site, plastic boy.
for anyone interested, I posted a picture of someone on a river in a kayak without a helmet for steve, sorry I did not do a whole list of them like I originally had steve, but you can get them too. –scott
> —–Original Message—–
From: beadysee [mailto:beadysee@freewebcity.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:19 PM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Helmet Diatribe…
— In canyons@y…, Steve Brezovec wrote:
> Oh the whitewater kayaker sans helmet has to be IN whitewater.
> game on.
Easy as pie, baby. As George Zimmer says, “I think yer gonna like
how you look”….:
http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/se330.asp
> http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/395ps.asp
> http://www.funtimeinflatables.com/challeng.htm
> http://www.orangetorpedo.com/index2.html
> Even something for Rich…
http://www.10000-waves.com/services/team.asp
> Vanna, tell our guests what they’ve won…
What? Now yer gonna say, has to be a hard shell…?
Same as, bet you’d wear a helmet if you knew you were gonna bonk yer
head…well, duh!
Lets go bust a noggin’ in some tight trees, tray boyee…you ’round
over the holidaze?
If it were easy, they’d call it snowboardin’…
Brian in SLC
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Steve Brezovec
I know I should drop this but I can’t cause it’s fun… I went to google, typed in whitewater kayaker, browsed 25 pages of images before giving up. Send me a URL, bro brah, cuz I don’t see a single helmetless kayaker (yes hardshell, in whitewater) in the mix… My point? How does this relate to canyoneering? I don’t have one and it doesn’t. Oh except for this: Helmet wearing is sorta a peer-pressure cool-guy incultured thing, that I think we in this group can play a roll in fostering. If people get the idea that wearing helmets is for the cool kids and not the dorks, more people will wear their helmets and (no sh!t) lives will be saved. Ego I’m probably too personally close to this one as I may/may not have a brain injury from my car wreck and my younger sister definitely has a life-debilitating one. I am a huge fan of helmets. Yes you still have the right to not wear your helmet in canyons. But if I see you I will make fun of you until you cry like a 2nd grader on the playground.
> OK, here goes Stevie, just do this since it is how I found them all > and they are there. Go to google, go to the images section and just > type “whitewater kayaking” look through there for about 15 pages > and you will see a few. > –scott
Steve Brezovec
Post an image to the yahoo site, plastic boy.
> —–Original Message—– > From: beadysee [mailto:beadysee@freewebcity.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:19 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Helmet Diatribe…
> — In canyons@y…, Steve Brezovec wrote:
Oh the whitewater kayaker sans helmet has to be IN whitewater.
game on.
Easy as pie, baby. As George Zimmer says, “I think yer gonna like > how you look”….:
http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/se330.asp
> http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/395ps.asp
> http://www.funtimeinflatables.com/challeng.htm
> http://www.orangetorpedo.com/index2.html
> Even something for Rich…
http://www.10000-waves.com/services/team.asp
> Vanna, tell our guests what they’ve won…
What? Now yer gonna say, has to be a hard shell…?
Same as, bet you’d wear a helmet if you knew you were gonna bonk yer > head…well, duh!
Lets go bust a noggin’ in some tight trees, tray boyee…you ’round > over the holidaze?
If it were easy, they’d call it snowboardin’…
Brian in SLC
———————— Groups Sponsor > ———————~–
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WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
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scotth@payrollperfect.com
OK, here goes Stevie, just do this since it is how I found them all and they are there. Go to google, go to the images section and just type “whitewater kayaking” look through there for about 15 pages and you will see a few. –scott
> Not one whitewater shot. I stand triumphant. Nanny-nanny-nah-nah! > I’d also like to point out that it took you almost two hours for you to > respond. > Don’t tell me you were working, that’s no excuse…i win i win i win. > *Steve does Homer Simpson style victory dance* > I will enjoy the tight trees more than you will. My favorite is the big > cottonwood exit out of Day’s fork. Makes me feel like James Bond losing his > pursuing evil villan skiers behind him…Race you to the bottom…Saturday? > Hey shouldn’t someone be flaming us for having this personal discussion on > the broadband? > Are you all asleep today?
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
> Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options.
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
> Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
scotth@payrollperfect.com
> Easy as pie, baby. As George Zimmer says, “I think yer gonna like > how you look”….:
Luckily there was an ad in which the above misquoted quote is used on the radio as I read this, it should be “I think yer gonna like the way you look”. Moderators, this blatant sort of misquotation should result in immediate censorship. If he will go this far, who knows what will come next.
On the following note, I guess I do not need to send the links I have found with pictures now. Steve really should have known better than to challenge what is on the internet. –scotth
> http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/se330.asp
> http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/395ps.asp
> http://www.funtimeinflatables.com/challeng.htm
> http://www.orangetorpedo.com/index2.html
> Even something for Rich…
http://www.10000-waves.com/services/team.asp
> Vanna, tell our guests what they’ve won…
What? Now yer gonna say, has to be a hard shell…?
Same as, bet you’d wear a helmet if you knew you were gonna bonk yer > head…well, duh!
Lets go bust a noggin’ in some tight trees, tray boyee…you ’round > over the holidaze?
If it were easy, they’d call it snowboardin’…
Brian in SLC
Steve Brezovec
Not one whitewater shot. I stand triumphant. Nanny-nanny-nah-nah! I’d also like to point out that it took you almost two hours for you to respond. Don’t tell me you were working, that’s no excuse…i win i win i win. *Steve does Homer Simpson style victory dance* I will enjoy the tight trees more than you will. My favorite is the big cottonwood exit out of Day’s fork. Makes me feel like James Bond losing his pursuing evil villan skiers behind him…Race you to the bottom…Saturday? Hey shouldn’t someone be flaming us for having this personal discussion on the broadband? Are you all asleep today?
beadysee
— In canyons@y…, Steve Brezovec wrote: > Oh the whitewater kayaker sans helmet has to be IN whitewater. > game on.
Easy as pie, baby. As George Zimmer says, “I think yer gonna like how you look”….:
http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/se330.asp
http://www.seaeagle.com/canoes/395ps.asp
http://www.funtimeinflatables.com/challeng.htm
http://www.orangetorpedo.com/index2.html
Even something for Rich…
http://www.10000-waves.com/services/team.asp
Vanna, tell our guests what they’ve won…
What? Now yer gonna say, has to be a hard shell…?
Same as, bet you’d wear a helmet if you knew you were gonna bonk yer head…well, duh!
Lets go bust a noggin’ in some tight trees, tray boyee…you ’round over the holidaze?
If it were easy, they’d call it snowboardin’…
Brian in SLC
Steve Brezovec
Oh the whitewater kayaker sans helmet has to be IN whitewater. game on.
Steve Brezovec
*Ahem* allow em to clarify: WHITEWATER Kayakers. Sea Kayakers are not “boaters.” They’re like, sailors, or something. Kinda like calling a canyoneer a climber…not neccessarily the same. You don’t sea kayak on a 10 degree incline with big rocks 6 inches under the surface you are caroming down at high velocities. Show me ONE whitewater kayaker without a helmet. One. Anywhere. Comb the internet. I will pay money. I assume your using bikers as a benchmark for adventurists? The way I drive, I should wear one in my car… Snowboarding I haven’t gotten one yet but these last two or three years I have started to back off some lines that I used to do because I don’t have a helmet. Having a friend or two die from head impact snowboarding will do that to you. My thinking is, “I’ll try that line, after I get my helmet.” I think skiing/snowboarding, at least at the bird and in steep backcountry, is moving the way of mt.biking/kayaking…pretty soon it will be the rule, not the exception. Nuthin but love for u Brian. Oops almost mistyped that Brain….freudian? I boulder without a helmet….for now. Scott keeps throwing things at me.
beadysee
— In canyons@y…, Steve Brezovec wrote: > In my view of adventure, I like to eliminate or reduce the things that could injure or kill me out of randomness. My idea of adventure is that I challenge myself by attempting things that require more and more skill and experience to avoid the injury/death; but the things that persist in being totally random and out of control, I protect myself from those things with equipment.
And…sometimes…less is more….
>I don’t really see the thrill of going out without a helmet and saying “ooooo let me see if the dice roll in my favor and I don’t get cracked today. What a rush!”
Not that flavor at all. Not wearing a helmet has nuttin’ to do with yer sports climbing adrenaline junkie MTV sound bite adventure race mentality. ‘Bout being unencumbered with unneccessary equipement. Freedom. Go to a biker bar…
So…you wear one whilst snowboarding? Backcountry? In area? Why not? Wear one in your car? Why not?
> My hope is that helmets in canyoneering become > like helmets in mountain biking and kayaking…anyone seen on the > trail/river without one is deemed a consumate idiot or obvious newbie.
There’a many a hot day when I don’t wear a helmit mountain biking uphill at 1.5mph (20X32baby!).
Never seen a sea kayaker wear a helmit or a picture of same. So…might just depend on the type of activity, eh?
Loose rock? Helmet. Butt smooth (your butt, not mine)? Helmet optional.
> Those of you who boat will notice that no one kayaks without a helmet. I mean no one. Like I’ve NEVER seen it.
http://www.caske2000.org/ http://www.seakayakadventures.com/ http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/
…could go on and on…
> And I’ve been cracked canyoneering almost as many times as I’ve been roughtumbled kayaking. I’m sure someone will come back with a “shut-up-you-prophesier-of-doom” post, so I’ll say: > IMHO, YMMV.
Knockonwood…but…glad to have worn one whilst climbing most times…sometimes…maybe…but…no close calls canyoneering. Knockonwoodknockonwoodknockonwood….
>(hit-by-a-car-goin-30mph-head-on-into-me-on-my-bike-without-a-helmet- and-lived)
(ran-into-a-car(truck tailgate actually)-at-30mph-head-on-without-a- helmit-and-walked-away-too-broke-bike-frame-in-two-places-notta- scratch-knock-on-wood)
> Cars are random and out of control.
So are climbers and canyoneers…but…the environment less so…
Brian in SLC