I’ll add that while a number of us have pack rafted that section of river quite a few times, Sonny was the first to actually run President Harding rapid. The rest of us have always portaged. An impressive feat for sure!
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones”
The Sevylor Trail Boats have two, separate, short-handled paddles. > Kind of whacky, but they seem to work. They have a connector to make > them into a kayak style paddle, but the handle is way too short.
Sonny’s decade as a waterbug really showed. Amazing to stay in the > boat through those waves…
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000”
Is that a new technique for paddling Sonny….one handed? I would > think those small boats
would offer enough challenge but there you guy upping the ante a > bit. Style indeed.
Phillip
>
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
I’ve used an Alpacka in Grand Canyon. They are very nice boats but > they are way too heavy. The Alpacka plus paddle plus PFD is 7 pounds > (4.5 + 2 + .5). My Sevylor plus paddles plus PFD is 4 pounds all in. >
Makes sense, though it is interesting how rapidly our expectations of gear are evolving. Fun to thank that folks use to float across the ditch on thermarest pads. Now 4.5 lbs is to heavy for a packraft.:^)
> the end Aaron is coming close to the ideal canyoning raft for Grand > Canyon exploration. It’s under 2 pounds but is made with material that > is much more expensive and more durable than the Sevylor material. The > raft does not need to run big rapids…. instead it just needs to > transport you down river to an exit. >
sounds like he has a good thing going. How is welding or working the seams on the design???
rich_rudow
I’ve used an Alpacka in Grand Canyon. They are very nice boats but they are way too heavy. The Alpacka plus paddle plus PFD is 7 pounds (4.5 + 2 + .5). My Sevylor plus paddles plus PFD is 4 pounds all in.
The NRS prototype Todd has is also completely unacceptable for our use in Grand Canyon – it’s over 5 pounds (w/o paddles and PFD) and fills most of a Heaps pack. We provided a bunch of feedback to NRS on the design – I hope they consider it. If you did to a Sevylor what those guys in Alaska do to Alpacka’s the Sevylor would be crushed. But that does not address the Colorado River scenario at all. What’s needed for canyoning in Grand Canyon is a really light boat that packs small for floating in mostly calm water. You can run riffles with ease in Sevylor’s but anything big (like Pres Harding) is portaged. Sonny has guts and a lot of white water experience the rest of us don’t have.
Frankly, I’ve been very surprised at how well my Sevylor has held up after a lot of Colorado river running. But you really don’t need to worry about rocks or other hazards in that river – it’s big water. In the end Aaron is coming close to the ideal canyoning raft for Grand Canyon exploration. It’s under 2 pounds but is made with material that is much more expensive and more durable than the Sevylor material. The raft does not need to run big rapids…. instead it just needs to transport you down river to an exit.
Good Fun!
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, j b wrote:
It would be cool to see some competition for the Alpackas, which are > currently in a class all their own. I’m unaware of anything else even > remotely as light, tough, and seaworthy. Of course, that combination > also makes them terrifically expensive.
Jeff
What they are doing with those boats amazes me. They are running > crazy stuff in Alaska and walking away with few scars on the boats. I > was hesitant to believe a 4 lb boat could take much abuse from Class > IV-V rapids but I seem to have been proven wrong with all the testimonies.
Phillip >
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> Ionsmuse sure has mocved that boat around. First he is in Colorado, > then living in Utah, some of it with you in the Roost. Moves to > Arizona…contacted him for this last trip, only to find he was long > gone in Montana. 😉 >
Yeah, he is in a grad program in Missoula. Ironically, it seems I am always about a year behind him. He left St. George and I go to SUU. He will graduate from the UofM and I might end up there for a wildlife grad program in 2010-11. Though after visiting No Cal I can say I like moderate temperatures more than Missoula may provide. It sounds like southern Utah is in his long term plans, not long after I permanently move away (or so try).
At least we have both upgraded from the back our automobiles. He even had to rent a truck truck to move last time.
Phillip
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote: > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
Todd’s NRS “Green Giant” was a prototype he was testing.
The standard pool toy the rest of us used is the Sevylor Trail Boat:
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___70062
> Tom
> Another piece of gear to lust after. Ionsmuse has one of those > Sevylors that I may try to pick up from him when upgrades
Ionsmuse sure has mocved that boat around. First he is in Colorado, then living in Utah, some of it with you in the Roost. Moves to Arizona…contacted him for this last trip, only to find he was long gone in Montana. 😉
but that > prototype looks descent. Did he mention a weight or is it way too > early to say???
Aaron’s black and red which he made was under 3 LB’s seemed to better than the near 4 lb Sevylor,s….or maybe that was just operator skill? Todd’s prototype came in at about 6 LB’s R
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, j b wrote:
It would be cool to see some competition for the Alpackas, which are currently in a class all their own. I’m unaware of anything else even remotely as light, tough, and seaworthy. Of course, that combination also makes them terrifically expensive.
Jeff
What they are doing with those boats amazes me. They are running crazy stuff in Alaska and walking away with few scars on the boats. I was hesitant to believe a 4 lb boat could take much abuse from Class IV-V rapids but I seem to have been proven wrong with all the testimonies.
Phillip
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
Todd’s NRS “Green Giant” was a prototype he was testing.
The standard pool toy the rest of us used is the Sevylor Trail Boat:
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___70062
> Tom >
Another piece of gear to lust after. Ionsmuse has one of those Sevylors that I may try to pick up from him when upgrades but that prototype looks descent. Did he mention a weight or is it way too early to say???
j b
It would be cool to see some competition for the Alpackas, which are currently in a class all their own. I’m unaware of anything else even remotely as light, tough, and seaworthy. Of course, that combination also makes them terrifically expensive.
Jeff
________________________________ From: Tom Jones ratagonia@gmail.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:14:42 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Homepage Photo
Todd’s NRS “Green Giant” was a prototype he was testing.
The standard pool toy the rest of us used is the Sevylor Trail Boat:
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___70062
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
> By the way, were does one find that NRS inflatable that was in the > photos? Tried to search for it with no luck. Old or new design??? > Inquiring minds.
Phillip >
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Tom Jones
Todd’s NRS “Green Giant” was a prototype he was testing.
The standard pool toy the rest of us used is the Sevylor Trail Boat:
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___70062
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
> By the way, were does one find that NRS inflatable that was in the > photos? Tried to search for it with no luck. Old or new design??? > Inquiring minds.
Phillip >
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Sonny Lawrence” wrote:
What you guys carrying for lifevests? If
it has the same design as I saw Ram wearing then hell if I would be > floating President
Harding, definitely not meant for whitewater.
Phillip
> I am a coward compared to my fellow pool-toy-boating-canyon-descending > colleagues. I was using a Pataguchi Kayak PFD. Plus I was wearing a > drysuit. >
By the way, were does one find that NRS inflatable that was in the photos? Tried to search for it with no luck. Old or new design??? Inquiring minds.
Phillip
Sonny Lawrence
What you guys carrying for lifevests? If > it has the same design as I saw Ram wearing then hell if I would be floating President > Harding, definitely not meant for whitewater.
Phillip > I am a coward compared to my fellow pool-toy-boating-canyon-descending colleagues. I was using a Pataguchi Kayak PFD. Plus I was wearing a drysuit.
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Hawaiian shorts? That’s so 8 years ago! It’s been the yellow ones with
the little boat on um, for years now. I’m sure a partner from the week
captured them in all their minimalist glory. It was decided that they
were not obscene. No less an authority than Sonny declared
them…..suggestive! As for the PFD, I just got was I was told to get.
Now you imply I was imperiled? Who knew? Maybe that is why Randi
“forgot” to wear hers? She knew it didn’t matter? This pool toy (not a
real boat!) on the Colorado River thing is way out there. Even in the
calmer water, you hit an eddy and the boat flies in a 360. And those
eddy fences? Looks calm and the next second the boat is filled with
water without even encountering a ripple. Forty-eight degree water.
You limp over to the nearest beach, dump the water and start over
again. Crazy and inspired at the same time, these guys who managed to
figure out these ways to descent these remote slots AND get out of the
big ditch afterward. Fun, fun, fun.
Ramoo
> Those PFD’s problem more dangerous than good if you get caught in anything other than > pure flatwater. They have the tendency to have a problem with sliding up over your head > and trapping your arms. Nasty way to drown, has been contributed to a fair number of > deaths even with good pfd’s in big water situations. Though mental comfort is valuable.
So they were trying to kill me? Shoulda known. Get in line! I need to invite them up to Utah. Got a few slots where I can create the illusion of safety too! Ha ha!
> Shorts sound like a color variation on an old theme. Buy a bunch years ago at Costco or > something?
Savers in my case
We each have our trademark, I have to say more than once yours was flesh > showing through ripped pants.
Lies! Well, maybe. That is why I go first. That way I don’t have to look at it. LOL! The present pair are a two layered, high end affair, with the top layer so shredded you are sure you are going to be”treated” to horrors, but a layer is always present….thus the suggestive lable
Aye. Beunos noches, off to finnish up an essay
Make up your mind. Mexico or Finland. 😉 R
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote: >
I need to get you on an overnight river trip sometime Ram. I get the permit, buy and cook, you bring the single malt? Maybe Westwater in July.
Phillip
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Hawaiian shorts? That’s so 8 years ago! It’s been the yellow ones with > the little boat on um, for years now. I’m sure a partner from the week > captured them in all their minimalist glory. It was decided that they > were not obscene. No less an authority than Sonny declared > them…..suggestive! As for the PFD, I just got was I was told to get. > Now you imply I was imperiled? Who knew? Maybe that is why Randi > “forgot” to wear hers? She knew it didn’t matter? This pool toy (not a > real boat!) on the Colorado River thing is way out there. Even in the > calmer water, you hit an eddy and the boat flies in a 360. And those > eddy fences? Looks calm and the next second the boat is filled with > water without even encountering a ripple. Forty-eight degree water. > You limp over to the nearest beach, dump the water and start over > again. Crazy and inspired at the same time, these guys who managed to > figure out these ways to descent these remote slots AND get out of the > big ditch afterward. Fun, fun, fun. > Ramoo >
Yeah, a guy by the name of Roman dial is doing multi-day trips in the area with multiple crossings of the river. Rumor is they have developed a regulation for packrafts in the grand. Actually a benefit, you didn’t use to be able to float the ditch on overnights with a packraft. They have run some impressive rapids, including Granite I believe.
Those PFD’s problem more dangerous than good if you get caught in anything other than pure flatwater. They have the tendency to have a problem with sliding up over your head and trapping your arms. Nasty way to drown, has been contributed to a fair number of deaths even with good pfd’s in big water situations. Though mental comfort is valuable.
Shorts sound like a color variation on an old theme. Buy a bunch years ago at Costco or something? We each have our trademark, I have to say more than once yours was flesh showing through ripped pants. Aye. Beunos noches, off to finnish up an essay on the historical implications of ecology, genetics, and evolution to the medical field. Fun (actual a good assignment).
Phillip
Phillip
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon wrote:
Only the best (i.e. lightest) : http://micurl.com/23itsj
> SCARY!!!!! But I guess anything modern would clash with Ram’s well documented style (you > still wearing those same, raggedy Hawaiian shorts buddy??). > Phillip
Hawaiian shorts? That’s so 8 years ago! It’s been the yellow ones with the little boat on um, for years now. I’m sure a partner from the week captured them in all their minimalist glory. It was decided that they were not obscene. No less an authority than Sonny declared them…..suggestive! As for the PFD, I just got was I was told to get. Now you imply I was imperiled? Who knew? Maybe that is why Randi “forgot” to wear hers? She knew it didn’t matter? This pool toy (not a real boat!) on the Colorado River thing is way out there. Even in the calmer water, you hit an eddy and the boat flies in a 360. And those eddy fences? Looks calm and the next second the boat is filled with water without even encountering a ripple. Forty-eight degree water. You limp over to the nearest beach, dump the water and start over again. Crazy and inspired at the same time, these guys who managed to figure out these ways to descent these remote slots AND get out of the big ditch afterward. Fun, fun, fun. Ramoo
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon wrote:
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 6:43 PM, restrac2000 wrote:
What you guys carrying > for lifevests? If > it has the same design as I saw Ram wearing then hell if I would be floating > President > Harding, definitely not meant for whitewater.
Only the best (i.e. lightest) : http://micurl.com/23itsj
SCARY!!!!! But I guess anything modern would clash with Ram’s well documented style (you still wearing those same, raggedy Hawaiian shorts buddy??).
Phillip
hank moon
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 6:43 PM, restrac2000 Happyfeet00@hotmail.com> wrote: > What you guys carrying > for lifevests? If > it has the same design as I saw Ram wearing then hell if I would be floating > President > Harding, definitely not meant for whitewater.
Only the best (i.e. lightest) : http://micurl.com/23itsj
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
What Aaron has done is quite innovative – especially for Grand Canyon > where the slot entry and exit are so difficult. Weight matters A LOT. > His boat design is 40% lighter than the Sevylor trail boat and is > probably more durable due to better materials. The size is the same. > He put more than 20 river miles on that raft exiting Grand Canyon slots > in the last few weeks – enough proof for me to line up to buy one > Can’t ‘weight’ to get it!
Rich >
Those Yak Rafts are amazing but you need almost 1K to drop on them, they weight like 4 lbs and the same company offers one of the sexiest collapsable paddles that I have ever seen. No need for spoons like you guys are talking about. What you guys carrying for lifevests? If it has the same design as I saw Ram wearing then hell if I would be floating President Harding, definitely not meant for whitewater.
Phillip
rich_rudow
What Aaron has done is quite innovative – especially for Grand Canyon where the slot entry and exit are so difficult. Weight matters A LOT. His boat design is 40% lighter than the Sevylor trail boat and is probably more durable due to better materials. The size is the same. He put more than 20 river miles on that raft exiting Grand Canyon slots in the last few weeks – enough proof for me to line up to buy one Can’t ‘weight’ to get it!
Rich
> The funny story is from AzAaron building his own boat by using an ironing board and iron to > “stitch” it together. >
Sonny Lawrence
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
I’ll add that while a number of us have pack rafted that section of > river quite a few times, Sonny was the first to actually run > President Harding rapid. The rest of us have always portaged. An > impressive feat for sure! > I know Tom does not believe in “luck.” However I have my doubts that I made it through due to skill. Those boats are weird, like sitting on top of a cork with two spoons as paddles. I found it is better to hold the paddle where the shaft meets the blade. You have one in each hand. The other “secret” is to lower your center of gravity as low as possible.
The funny story is from AzAaron building his own boat by using an ironing board and iron to “stitch” it together.