Now that I’m the proud owner of a Sevylor, I’d be interested in other uses for it, i.e. other trips that couldn’t be done easily without one. Anybody have ideas? Something in Escalante maybe? Bill
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000”
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones”
Todd’s NRS “Green Giant” was a prototype he was testing.
The standard pool toy the rest of us used is the Sevylor Trail Boat:
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___70062
> Tom
Another piece of gear to lust after. Ionsmuse has one of those > Sevylors that I may try to pick up from him when upgrades but that > prototype looks descent. Did he mention a weight or is it way too > early to say??? >
Mike Schasch
boy, I’d sure love to hear a trip report
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “carpeybiggs” wrote:
you’re in the right ballpark, at least…
i’m standing in the bottom of the pothole, probably 15 feet from the far wall, with a very wide angle lens. the pothole is very deep, so the image is taking in maybe 140 degrees worth of view, so you can see both sides of the beast.
it is very much an actual picture, but it is two exposures. one for the sky, one for the pothole, then use some masking to blend it back together.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “John D Diener” wrote:
Looks like a Dan Ransom original? Smiling Cricket? Even close?
-john
________________________________________
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of
RAM
Sent: 2009-October-16, Friday 1:10 PM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Homepage Photo
Â
Guess who, on who took it….;-)
The lower part of the picture is to scale and the upper part includes what
is behind the photographer, including the up canyon pouroff, which is in
fact 6 feet lower than the down canyon escape, estimated at 22 feet.
R
>
carpeybiggs
you’re in the right ballpark, at least…
i’m standing in the bottom of the pothole, probably 15 feet from the far wall, with a very wide angle lens. the pothole is very deep, so the image is taking in maybe 140 degrees worth of view, so you can see both sides of the beast.
it is very much an actual picture, but it is two exposures. one for the sky, one for the pothole, then use some masking to blend it back together.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “John D Diener” wrote:
Looks like a Dan Ransom original? Smiling Cricket? Even close? > -john
________________________________________ > From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of > RAM > Sent: 2009-October-16, Friday 1:10 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Homepage Photo
 > Guess who, on who took it….;-) > The lower part of the picture is to scale and the upper part includes what > is behind the photographer, including the up canyon pouroff, which is in > fact 6 feet lower than the down canyon escape, estimated at 22 feet. > R >
John D Diener
Looks like a Dan Ransom original? Smiling Cricket? Even close? -john
________________________________________ From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of RAM Sent: 2009-October-16, Friday 1:10 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Homepage Photo
 Guess who, on who took it….;-) The lower part of the picture is to scale and the upper part includes what is behind the photographer, including the up canyon pouroff, which is in fact 6 feet lower than the down canyon escape, estimated at 22 feet. R
RAM
Guess who, on who took it….;-) The lower part of the picture is to scale and the upper part includes what is behind the photographer, including the up canyon pouroff, which is in fact 6 feet lower than the down canyon escape, estimated at 22 feet. R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
Who’s shot is that? Is that doctored at all or is that a raw, natural image? Stunning either way.
Phillip >
adventure_geek
I agree. Great pic!
I’d add, where is it taken? Looks like one serious pothole. Comparable to the one in Smiling Cricket; but the walls look different than Cricket (of course, it could be the angle.) If it is Cricket, did Tom make his run through and remove the bolts he wanted to? Replace any?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
Who’s shot is that? Is that doctored at all or is that a raw, natural image? Stunning either way.
Phillip >
stefan
absolutely stunning!
On Oct 16, 2009, at 10:50 AM, restrac2000 wrote:
> Who’s shot is that? Is that doctored at all or is that a raw, > natural image? Stunning either way.
Phillip
restrac2000
Who’s shot is that? Is that doctored at all or is that a raw, natural image? Stunning either way.
Phillip
restrac2000
‘We’ve come a long way baby” (Some freaking Moby song)
Phillip
davewyo1
Although I get the(ironic) point in the caption of the photo, I can no longer take “credit” for all or most of the anchors in the minislots I have published. That particular stack of rocks at the top of Morocco Canyon has been “strengthened” at least twice since I built the original. The rock with the webbing tied to it, and the rock that is directly above it, are the two “boulders” that I set as an anchor. A second group, I believe it was Doug French and friends, added the two rocks in front of “my” two. Another party must have added the fifth “boulder” in the stack shown in the photo. I will freely admit that I have a higher tolerance for rappelling off of “light” anchors as I weigh 130# and don’t see the need for a “huge” pile of rocks unless the rappel is a large one. So I feel like the addition of a few rocks to the pile is a natural evolution of my diminutive anchors. When it gets “too large” someone can easily pull a couple of the smaller pieces off of the stack. Now some of the OTHER anchors in the same canyon do need to be questioned in my opinion. Somewhere in the middle of the canyon there is a small drop with a young cottonwood about twenty feet back from the lip. Eric, Penny, and I managed that drop by sending the first person down off of a “meat” anchor and then spotting the next two from below as they downclimbed, but it is awkward enough that an anchor has shown up there over the last year. At first the anchor was made of a few scavenged rocks and five feet of webbing. The last time I went through Morocco, there was a twenty foot length of webbing girth-hitched to the cottonwood. This seems to happen often over the evolution of a dead-man anchor. All of us can do the canyon a favor by replacing, or otherwise refurbishing, these “fully evolved” anchors. Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
I have no strong inclination about bolt vs. natural anchors, other than I will never likely place bolts except in an emergency and I am not likely ever to pull “someone else’s” bolts. The homepage photo reiterates two things for me. One, I never have liked rappelling off of rock stacks and intentionally stay away from canyons that have them as th only solution (in deference to local ethics). Second, despite my resistance to use them there is something elegant about such a simple anchor. Both aesthetically and functionally,( I just ignore the cognitive dissonance on this one).
Phillip >
restrac2000
I have no strong inclination about bolt vs. natural anchors, other than I will never likely place bolts except in an emergency and I am not likely ever to pull “someone else’s” bolts. The homepage photo reiterates two things for me. One, I never have liked rappelling off of rock stacks and intentionally stay away from canyons that have them as th only solution (in deference to local ethics). Second, despite my resistance to use them there is something elegant about such a simple anchor. Both aesthetically and functionally,( I just ignore the cognitive dissonance on this one).
Phillip
ionsmuse
Another piece of gear to lust after. Ionsmuse has one of those > Sevylors that I may try to pick up from him when upgrades but that > prototype looks descent. Did he mention a weight or is it way too > early to say??? >
Those Sevylor’s suck. Too little air in the stern tubes. I need an Alpacka.
Rumor I heard is the NRS has two chambers.
rich_rudow
The current rafting regulations require ammo can toilets, fire pans (this time of year), spare PFD’s and oars, etc, etc. etc. They are appropriate if you ARE rafting and staying consecutive nights on river beaches. I’ve talked to a number of Grand Canyon backcountry rangers about pack rafts including one Lee’s Ferry river ranger and some South rim rangers who also happen to use pack rafts themselves. Bottom line – there are no formal regulations on pack rafts currently. You can cross the river at will and you can go downstream for short distances. There is no definition of when “backpacking” stops and “rafting” begins. But the new backcountry management plan in works will regulate pack rafts specifically and we are involved in the process. I suspect at this point that rafting downstream and staying on river beaches for multiple nights will be defined as “rafting” and will kick in the full rafting regulatory process. But rafting across or downstream for short distances stands a good chance of being accepted as “backpacking” and regulated under the backcountry permit backpackers are required to obtain (as long as you orginate on the rim and will exit to the rim with a backpack). It’s also likely that some formal safety regulations will be imposed on pack rafts. Perhaps our 8 oz cheapo life vests get regulated out of Grand Canyon use, for example, in favor of a safer (and … sigh … heavier) solution. I also suspect that portaging of named rapids will be required.
We’ve done some pack rafting in short stretches on at least a dozen trips to gain access to various breaks to afford a hiking exit. The rangers routinely ask us what we’re doing when they realize our hiking route to be impossible. We tell them and they issue the backcountry permit. I do hope that the pack rafting regs won’t turn into a typical bureaucratic pile measuring inches deep. We have a few advocates helping out to educate the Park Service.
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “dsrats1” wrote:
You might want to check the regulations, ANY downstream travel on the > Colorado requires a river permit and check in at Lee’s Ferry. The > equipment you are talking about will not meet the regulations. You > are subject to legal action if caught on the river without a permit. > Dsrtrat
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
I’ve used an Alpacka in Grand Canyon. They are very nice boats but
they are way too heavy. The Alpacka plus paddle plus PFD is 7 > pounds
(4.5 + 2 + .5). My Sevylor plus paddles plus PFD is 4 pounds all > in.
The NRS prototype Todd has is also completely unacceptable for our > use
in Grand Canyon – it’s over 5 pounds (w/o paddles and PFD) and > fills
most of a Heaps pack. We provided a bunch of feedback to NRS on > the
design – I hope they consider it. If you did to a Sevylor what > those
guys in Alaska do to Alpacka’s the Sevylor would be crushed. But > that
does not address the Colorado River scenario at all. What’s > needed
for canyoning in Grand Canyon is a really light boat that packs > small
for floating in mostly calm water. You can run riffles with ease > in
Sevylor’s but anything big (like Pres Harding) is portaged. Sonny > has
guts and a lot of white water experience the rest of us don’t have.
Frankly, I’ve been very surprised at how well my Sevylor has held > up
after a lot of Colorado river running. But you really don’t need > to
worry about rocks or other hazards in that river – it’s big water. > In
the end Aaron is coming close to the ideal canyoning raft for Grand
Canyon exploration. It’s under 2 pounds but is made with material > that
is much more expensive and more durable than the Sevylor material. > The
raft does not need to run big rapids…. instead it just needs to
transport you down river to an exit.
Good Fun!
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, j b wrote:
It would be cool to see some competition for the Alpackas, > which are
> currently in a class all their own. I’m unaware of anything else > even
> remotely as light, tough, and seaworthy. Of course, that > combination
> also makes them terrifically expensive.
Jeff
What they are doing with those boats amazes me. They are running
> crazy stuff in Alaska and walking away with few scars on the > boats. I
> was hesitant to believe a 4 lb boat could take much abuse from > Class
> IV-V rapids but I seem to have been proven wrong with all the
testimonies.
Phillip
dsrats1
You might want to check the regulations, ANY downstream travel on the Colorado requires a river permit and check in at Lee’s Ferry. The equipment you are talking about will not meet the regulations. You are subject to legal action if caught on the river without a permit. Dsrtrat
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
I’ve used an Alpacka in Grand Canyon. They are very nice boats but > they are way too heavy. The Alpacka plus paddle plus PFD is 7 pounds > (4.5 + 2 + .5). My Sevylor plus paddles plus PFD is 4 pounds all in.
The NRS prototype Todd has is also completely unacceptable for our use > in Grand Canyon – it’s over 5 pounds (w/o paddles and PFD) and fills > most of a Heaps pack. We provided a bunch of feedback to NRS on the > design – I hope they consider it. If you did to a Sevylor what those > guys in Alaska do to Alpacka’s the Sevylor would be crushed. But that > does not address the Colorado River scenario at all. What’s needed > for canyoning in Grand Canyon is a really light boat that packs small > for floating in mostly calm water. You can run riffles with ease in > Sevylor’s but anything big (like Pres Harding) is portaged. Sonny has > guts and a lot of white water experience the rest of us don’t have.
Frankly, I’ve been very surprised at how well my Sevylor has held up > after a lot of Colorado river running. But you really don’t need to > worry about rocks or other hazards in that river – it’s big water. In > the end Aaron is coming close to the ideal canyoning raft for Grand > Canyon exploration. It’s under 2 pounds but is made with material that > is much more expensive and more durable than the Sevylor material. The > raft does not need to run big rapids…. instead it just needs to > transport you down river to an exit.
Good Fun!
Rich
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, j b wrote:
It would be cool to see some competition for the Alpackas, which are
currently in a class all their own. I’m unaware of anything else even
remotely as light, tough, and seaworthy. Of course, that combination
also makes them terrifically expensive.
Jeff
What they are doing with those boats amazes me. They are running
crazy stuff in Alaska and walking away with few scars on the boats. I
was hesitant to believe a 4 lb boat could take much abuse from Class
IV-V rapids but I seem to have been proven wrong with all the > testimonies.
Phillip
>
davewyo1
Sorry about that Rob et al. I haven’t actually done the Black Boxes and I thought there was a time when it is a good time to hike down in there and float down the river with some floatation.
Dave
The Black Boxes of the San Rafael during high water.
You left out the smily emoticon indicating that this comment was a > joke. The people I know who have kayaked the Black Boxes at high water > indicate that for strong groups of experienced paddlers with class V > whitewater experience, the risks are manageable. Be sure you can stop > before the sieve, and know how to rappel with a kayak, and can get back > in quickly from a floating position and get your skirt back on before > the class IV drop right around the corner.
If what you are trying to accomplish is certain death, why not just > go for Niagara Falls? Who knows, you might live.
The Black Boxes at high water with a pool toy? You deserve to die, and > stand a very good chance of accomplishing that goal. >
rich_rudow
> Makes sense, though it is interesting how rapidly our expectations of > gear are evolving. Fun to thank that folks use to float across the > ditch on thermarest pads. Now 4.5 lbs is to heavy for a packraft.:^)
No kidding here Before Glen Canyon dam was built Harvey Butchart, the guy who is widely recognized as hiking most in Grand Canyon until his death in 2001, used to regularly cross the Colorado on his 1950’s vintage air matress. Once he decided to raft downstream with a friend who could not swim well. His friend got sucked into an eddy and flipped over on the air matress with his pack suspended on his back in the water underneath him. Panic set it and he drowned. Before the dam the Colorado was a warm river. After the dam in 1963 the water shot down to 48 deg year round since the penstocks are collecting water 200′ below Lake Powell. The cold water tempered the enthusiasm for most raft crossings but a few folks have done it over the years since the dam was built. Canyoneerers in Grand Canyon have an advantage – many slots are very wet and cold so wetsuits are generally a part of the gear list. A wetsuit buys you a ton of time if your raft goes over in the river. Without a wetsuit, you might have ten minutes before hypothermia does you in. I’ve seen people tossed in on rafting trips in big rapids, including Lava, and I’m always suprised how they well they fare. The few deaths that do occur are most often attributed to cardiac issues arising from cold water shock and not drowning.
>
> the end Aaron is coming close to the ideal canyoning raft for Grand
Canyon exploration. It’s under 2 pounds but is made with material that
is much more expensive and more durable than the Sevylor material. The
raft does not need to run big rapids…. instead it just needs to
transport you down river to an exit.
sounds like he has a good thing going. How is welding or working the > seams on the design??? >
I don’t know the precise material he’s been using, but it similar to that found in modern dry bags. Seams are sealed with heat – he’s been using a regular clothes iron quite successfully. It’s certainly not a mass production technique and is tedious, but the result is really really good.
Rich
Rob Heineman
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
The Black Boxes of the San Rafael during high water.
You left out the smily emoticon indicating that this comment was a joke. The people I know who have kayaked the Black Boxes at high water indicate that for strong groups of experienced paddlers with class V whitewater experience, the risks are manageable. Be sure you can stop before the sieve, and know how to rappel with a kayak, and can get back in quickly from a floating position and get your skirt back on before the class IV drop right around the corner.
If what you are trying to accomplish is certain death, why not just go for Niagara Falls? Who knows, you might live.
The Black Boxes at high water with a pool toy? You deserve to die, and stand a very good chance of accomplishing that goal.
davewyo1
The Black Boxes of the San Rafael during high water. The Dirty Devil River under the right conditions. Hanksville to Powell, or put in at the Upper Sand Slide and take out at the confluence with the Lake. Bring a repair kit for the boat!
Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Bill” wrote:
Now that I’m the proud owner of a Sevylor, I’d be interested in other
> uses for it, i.e. other trips that couldn’t be done easily without
> one. Anybody have ideas? Something in Escalante maybe?
> Bill
Chute of Muddy Creek is a blast….maybe Music down to landing strip >
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Bill” wrote:
Now that I’m the proud owner of a Sevylor, I’d be interested in other
uses for it, i.e. other trips that couldn’t be done easily without
one. Anybody have ideas? Something in Escalante maybe?
Bill >
Chute of Muddy Creek is a blast….maybe Music down to landing strip
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Bill” wrote:
Now that I’m the proud owner of a Sevylor, I’d be interested in other > uses for it, i.e. other trips that couldn’t be done easily without > one. Anybody have ideas? Something in Escalante maybe? > Bill
Powell, of course, but in Escalante? How about floating from Fence to the Bakers, in May or June of a big water year? That would be perfect. vOr how about going from Bullfrog to Halls Creek for Happy Dog, the Baboon and the Cricket? Better have calm conditions for that long haul. Its always hard to soak in the Black Hole swimming section. Might be fun to lay back in a raft. Sulfur Creek or the Fremont River with the right amount of water. Never been, but I recall stories from Dinosaur where it might come in hand? Scott? Possibilities, possibilities. R