— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Stevee B”
Thanks! >
A little more clarification:
1. The pack was wrapped with webbing, and not tied off to the handle or straps. The pack was somewhat old, on its last legs, and certainly no longer worth the $100.00 asking price.
2. The 30-liter pack, filled with sand, would weigh approximately 200 lbs. Buried in the sand, with the webbing load going over a rounded, sandstone edge? My estimate for strength would be somewhere around 1000 lbs, but others will estimate differently. No WONDER we could not budge it on the next round. Could not even see it.
A creative solution in a stressful circumstance. Taste in what to leave behind, and the meaning attached to it by the variety of players is interesting. Personally, I thought it was a great idea and a good solution. Whereas I would have been offended if he had placed a bolt (or two). Yuppers, that pack plus the 20 feet of webbing around a hand-placed chockstone, then leading to the edge of the drop is physically more obtrusive than a well-placed glue-in bolt. So? All obtrusion is not physical. Placing hardware is a significant psychological taint. Artificial classification? For sure.
Now spray me with that uzi, Bee.dee.sea!
Tom
neil wilkinson
My advice? If you go canyoneering and do anything more than just slide down a rope from bolts somebody else put there, keep your trap shut!
I’m becoming amused/annoyed by all the Monday Morning Quarterbacks we have running around here calling plays after they happened. Of course we can learn from others experiences but my God give it a rest, you where not even there. You’ve never seen the canyon and unless you pay for the GPS coordinates from a beta pimp you’ll most likely never find it. ;-)~ To suggest you know better beyond a doubt than those who actually safely solved the problem is crazy. Koen, I have so much respect for your experience, I’m wondering if you’re not just enjoying being a thorn in the side.
What if you killed one of your party members doing an up-climb in the dark, or resulting exhaustion into shock or hypothermia from a midnight climbing exit into vast terrain miles from shelter? People and a warm bed are only 1 rap away. Am I serious? Of course not! The point is you can play mental gymnastics till the cows come home. Good luck achieving anything useful.
“What if” the problem to death, it’s fun. Neil
Koen pocoloco@skynet.be> wrote:
Hey Tom, thanks for pointing out two more mistakes
Koen
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> All of which led to abandoning of a perfectly good pack…
And that’s the problem, I just hate leaving gear behind ! I’d dive for an hour to retrieve a dropped fig 8 ! Just the thought of abandoning a complete pack… the horror ! Anybody who is forced to do that wasn’t clever but has probably f****d up big time somewhere along the line.
No heroes but clever fools .
Koen
Well, we’ll mark you down a ” a’gin it “.
Personally, I am trying to encourage it. I recommend the larger, more expensive Heaps Pack for building anchors!!!
Tom
Koen
So why did the “next group” do it “regular style” and the first > group do it “bury-the-pack” style? When they got to the end, it was > dark, they were cold and had had a hard day. When we got there it > was the middle of a fine spring day, plenty of time, took a nap on > the ledge – generally everything under control. We were mentally > prepared to chimney back a ways to get some good rocks, cause we had > been forewarned.
Good times had by both groups. Everybody came back with all parts > working.
Now, what’s the problem? >
Hey Tom, thanks for pointing out two more mistakes , a too late a start and not taking advantage of an escape when already in the dark, cold and exhausted. All of which led to abandoning of a perfectly good pack…
And that’s the problem, I just hate leaving gear behind ! I’d dive for an hour to retrieve a dropped fig 8 ! Just the thought of abandoning a complete pack… the horror ! Anybody who is forced to do that wasn’t clever but has probably f****d up big time somewhere along the line. No heroes but clever fools .
Koen
menomind
This is for sure why canyons keep calling me. It’s got to be there for others, too! Thank for expressing these thoughts in this forum. I’m of the opinion that these are the things that make us feel alive, and why we’re willing to take risks to get them. I’d like to hear how it FELT to be at the bottom after rapping off a pack.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “penmartens” wrote: > We are all aware of the ‘spirit’ of adventure. That thing we feed on > our own level, in our own way, on a regular basis. But, do > not forget the ‘spirit’ and ‘essence’ of adventure that unifies us.
Randi Poer
What very nice thoughts!
South was one of the most amazing adventure books I’ve ever read, and Shackelton one of the most noble men I’ve ever admired ~ he’s MY hero too! ; )
penmartens penmartens@yahoo.com> wrote: We are all aware of the ‘spirit’ of adventure. That thing we feed on our own level, in our own way, on a regular basis. Where would we be if Columbus thought, as everyone, that the world was flat; if Lewis and Clark didn’t have the desire to find a passage to the Pacific; if Shackelton (my hero) didn’t dream of the South Pole? What I really want to address, though, is the ‘essence’ of adventure. That thing that is somewhat intangible and hard, at least for me, to explain. A carress of breeze,a whif of fragrance, an unepected splash of color, or maybe the chirp of a canyon wren that sparks our hearts, transports us to another time and place and lives in our memories long after we have forgotten the number of rappels or the placement of anchors. Yes, we need to discuss technique as we develop canyoneering. We need to debate ethics to refine our individual beliefs and morals. But, do not forget the ‘spirit’ and ‘essence’ of adventure that unifies us.
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Stevee B
> So I’ll tell you what. My vacation time is shot for this year, but > I’ll set aside a few days next Spring. I’d be happy to come out > there, perhaps on one of Ram’s Powell trips, but on my own if need be. > I’ll pay my share of the boat costs, etc. I’ll descend this canyon, > carrying a few compact shovels and buckets and whatnot. I’d be happy > to act as a human anchor for that drop so everyone else can descend > the full canyon if they wish. Then I’ll dig the pack out, and exit > via Ram’s chimney. I promise I’ll keep the canyon location sooper > secret (I don’t write up trip reports anymore anyway), and I’ll leave > the bolt kit here at home. As for the pack, I’ll return it to Bucky, > or if he doesn’t want it I’ll donate it to Tom, perhaps he’ll start a > museum of Colorado Plateau canyoneering anchors someday.
Anyone else in?
Jeez Mike, if I knew that was all it would take to get you to join us again, I’d be burying packs in every canyon!
I have appreciated the comments about “pack-as-litter”. Agree with them or not, the lively discussion has been beneficial and given me cause to reexamine. Being fair to the follow-up descent team, I believe it was every bit their intention to retreive the pack and return it – I just don’t think anyone realized that a backhoe would be required.
Bring your scuba mask & tank, Mike. If you can get that thing out, I don’t think Bucky will expect it back. It’s yours!
neil wilkinson
Mike,
From my understanding the pack is now buried in sand in the bottom of a pot hole that is full of water to the point you are swimming. The return pack retrieval mission might highly depend on the water level in this pot hole.
On that note, I’m kinda feeling like the situation has been micro analyzed to the point of ridiculous.
Neil
Start your day with – make it your home page
mike_dallin
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Stevee B” wrote: > I think it’s worth noting that no one who’s spent much time in these > canyons has offered any criticism, and the actions have been roundly > defended by everyone who has. Think about it.
I’ve done similar canyons, and I have a few criticisms.
From what I’ve read and heard, the anchor was solid, at least enough that a half dozen plus canyoneers rappelled off of it without incident. The anchor was a creative solution in less than ideal circumstances (night falling, everyone cold, unknown canyon, etc). Good job for the person who placed it.
Having said that. I disagree with the fact that the pack is still there.
According to Ram, there is a safe entry/exit just above the anchor. Why didn’t anyone return the next day to remove it? I’ve read excuses here like “it is expensive to canyoneer here” and “lake powell is a bigger catastrophe” and “it is a remote canyon” and “it is descended so rarely few will ever see it”. Who cares? I’ve left what I consider an obnoxious amount of gear in remote canyons that have likely never seen another visitor, on several occasions, due to late hour or some other difficulty, and without fail I’ve returned every time to clean up my mess and leave a less obtrusive anchor. It sucks, I’ve had to sacrifice days I could have spent exploring different canyons, but I did it because I like to see canyons as clean as possible, I like other canyoneers/hikers/climbers to see canyons as clean as possible, and I really like land managers to see/hear about canyons as clean as possible and have them know that canyoneers care enough to keep them clean. It doesn’t matter how remote the canyon is, how few people descend it, or how much boat rental costs. It is in our best interest, as well as the canyon’s, to leave our anchors as clean and unobtrusive as possible. I know people who have driven hundreds of miles to return to a canyon to clean excessive gear left at an anchor, and replace it with a less obtrusive anchor, and I applaud them for it.
It really saddens me to hear people groaning about land managers restricting access, lamenting that something should be done to clean up the canyons and show the managers that we care, and then turn around and justify that this excessive anchor still exists because gosh darn it’s remote and expensive and hard to remove. That’s just laziness.
It would be different if this anchor was a rock or log buried, since rocks and logs are natural, leaving the anchor as unobstrusive as possible. A pack isn’t. It would also be different if there were no other alternative, but in this case there is – an exit just up canyon. It will take time and sweat to dig it out, but it isn’t impossible. Small price to pay, I say.
So I’ll tell you what. My vacation time is shot for this year, but I’ll set aside a few days next Spring. I’d be happy to come out there, perhaps on one of Ram’s Powell trips, but on my own if need be. I’ll pay my share of the boat costs, etc. I’ll descend this canyon, carrying a few compact shovels and buckets and whatnot. I’d be happy to act as a human anchor for that drop so everyone else can descend the full canyon if they wish. Then I’ll dig the pack out, and exit via Ram’s chimney. I promise I’ll keep the canyon location sooper secret (I don’t write up trip reports anymore anyway), and I’ll leave the bolt kit here at home. As for the pack, I’ll return it to Bucky, or if he doesn’t want it I’ll donate it to Tom, perhaps he’ll start a museum of Colorado Plateau canyoneering anchors someday.
Anyone else in?
M
penmartens
We are all aware of the ‘spirit’ of adventure. That thing we feed on our own level, in our own way, on a regular basis. Where would we be if Columbus thought, as everyone, that the world was flat; if Lewis and Clark didn’t have the desire to find a passage to the Pacific; if Shackelton (my hero) didn’t dream of the South Pole? What I really want to address, though, is the ‘essence’ of adventure. That thing that is somewhat intangible and hard, at least for me, to explain. A carress of breeze,a whif of fragrance, an unepected splash of color, or maybe the chirp of a canyon wren that sparks our hearts, transports us to another time and place and lives in our memories long after we have forgotten the number of rappels or the placement of anchors. Yes, we need to discuss technique as we develop canyoneering. We need to debate ethics to refine our individual beliefs and morals. But, do not forget the ‘spirit’ and ‘essence’ of adventure that unifies us.
Stevee B
Allow me to make some corrections:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> Ok, let me try to rehash the facts (haven’t read half of the post on > this subject):
Might be a good idea to do that, hmmm?
– team of experienced canyoneers go down a canyon which ends in an > artificial lake. > – they know the lake is lower then ever.
Based on the previous descent at the time of initial beta and the time of our descent, there should have been a drop of approximately xx’ – however, the actual difference was about 20′-30′ longer than that (perhaps more, I’d have to check my notes). This possible contingency was considered covered by the additional 50′ or rope brought by Bucky paired with his experience in passing knots, which is precisely what was executed to engineer the escape.
> – they know the beta on the canyon is scetchy, from x years ago.
See above. There was also no mention in the beta of “tricky anchors”, which is usually noted by this person when it is so. Turns out later that the pioneer party in fact had easy anchors when they did it, which had since been scoured out. Buck’s team made do and exited safely. What’s the problem? (See Tom’s post)
> – the canyon isn’t a trade route. > – they go in with just the right amount of gear necessary, based on > the beta of x years ago (when the lake was higher… ?).
No, they had some extra (contingency gear) which facilitated the successful escape. See above.
> – the guy who put them into this mess rightly volunteers to go last > (read: in a canyon either the first one or the last one down “eats” > it).
No, I put them into the mess. The beta came through me and was passed to Bucky, who loaded up on some contingencies accordingly, with the understanding that the beta was hazy and that this was an adventure canyon that would play for keeps, bring your game face as required.
Bottom line: in my book this sums up as a mayor screw-up. I myself > would apologize to my teammates and wouldn’t be proud of it, > regardless of the fancy last-ditch maneuvers. I’d be ashamed. And > would have refused Tom’s gentle offer of a replacement pack – you > sceew up you pay for it – unless he had something to do with the whole situation ofcourse ;-).
I think I felt appropriately guilty and bad at the time and apologized to Bucky & his crew – they were extremely gracious and forgiving, and declared that they never felt the situation out of control, thanks mostly to Buck’s calm confidence. Everyone agreed that he deserved the praise. As said before, may you have the privelidge of his company some day.
I think it’s worth noting that no one who’s spent much time in these canyons has offered any criticism, and the actions have been roundly defended by everyone who has. Think about it.
Koen
Tom Jones
Allow MOI to summarize:
Some folks went Canyoneering.
They came back with a story, and one less pack. Had a good time.
(The beta they had was the best kind – accurate but minimal. The real problem was the late start due to boat problems).
The next group through the canyon found the pack anchor super solid, and had no desire to dig in the bottom of a swimmer pothole to get it out of there. They did chimney back up canyon a ways (and I mean THEY – that’s not MY job) to bring down some solid-type boulders to build a strong chockstone-type anchor, and we rapped off both of them. We also cleaned up the long sling (rope) left on the last anchor. We were most likely the ‘next group through’.
So why did the “next group” do it “regular style” and the first group do it “bury-the-pack” style? When they got to the end, it was dark, they were cold and had had a hard day. When we got there it was the middle of a fine spring day, plenty of time, took a nap on the ledge – generally everything under control. We were mentally prepared to chimney back a ways to get some good rocks, cause we had been forewarned.
Good times had by both groups. Everybody came back with all parts working.
Now, what’s the problem?
Tom
Koen
Wow! That is a leap! Because they choose to test themselves in > challenging, largely beta free canyon area, you assume they are > reckless and don’t even carry a 1st aid kit? Unfair and inaccurate. > May you be graced with partners such as there guys and gals.
Ok, let me try to rehash the facts (haven’t read half of the post on this subject):
– team of experienced canyoneers go down a canyon which ends in an artificial lake. – they know the lake is lower then ever. – they know the beta on the canyon is scetchy, from x years ago. – the canyon isn’t a trade route. – they go in with just the right amount of gear necessary, based on the beta of x years ago (when the lake was higher… ?). – the guy who put them into this mess rightly volunteers to go last (read: in a canyon either the first one or the last one down “eats” it).
Bottom line: in my book this sums up as a mayor screw-up. I myself would apologize to my teammates and wouldn’t be proud of it, regardless of the fancy last-ditch maneuvers. I’d be ashamed. And would have refused Tom’s gentle offer of a replacement pack – you sceew up you pay for it – unless he had something to do with the whole situation ofcourse ;-).
Koen
W Reid White
Howdy Ram,
I really like (and agree with) your stance. I’ll be the first to admit that, my ass going over a rock is anything but graceful. I assume by style, however, that you’re referring to problem-solving rather than physical grace. And that’s what adventures in nature – and for that matter in life – are, to me, all about.
Happy Trails, Reid
—–Original Message—– From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of adkramoo Sent: Wednesday, 24 August, 2005 00:15 To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Homepage photo > NOT LNT
The arguments both ways have validity. But I feel robbed a bit. An act of innovation and creativity, that gave me joy, has been taken out to the woodshed for a paddling. I guess style matters a lot to me. How much? A lot, I suspect, because I believe problems can almost always be solved and when not, escape can be found (In this region anyway). I guess partners must agree on acceptable risk. It is why we have spent so much time out in that region lately. Canyons unknown and hard to get to. Places still in there wild state. And if no one gets hurt, I guess we are right, for ourselves only, and if we are wrong or err, may the cost be low and the angels be awake and looking out for us. May they be looking out for all of us, for regardless of style, risk exists in these wonderous places, for all of us, and in many ways. Safe Passage to All
neil wilkinson
Yeah, that was my point.
Neil
adkramoo adkramoo@aol.com> wrote:
And so does the name Brian Cabe. More than his share of pioneering routes in Zion. The big stuff he has walked to the edge of and dropped off….. I should beg him to tell that story of the big wall canyon where his rope came up a little short….Not to mention an extensive climbing resume and multiple major Alaska/Yukon ascents. R
Start your day with – make it your home page
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
> Im not bashing about leaving the backpack though. Bolt, backpack, > your choice. Maybe cover the bolt with sand so as not to offend the > purists.. Curious though, what did the beta say the anchor was? And > what was it backed up with on the 2nd time descent…another > backpack? a hook?
There was a couple of options on what to do, as I reviewed events back then. If after getting everybody down, he had choosen not to use the anchor, do to safety concerns. He could have waited out the night and worked at building an additional anchor, without the pressure of immenent darkness. Retreating up canyon a bit and then out and cross country, was also an option. This would have entailed climbing a 50 feet squeeze chimney. Ugly, physical stuff, but safe to do. as its in an enclosed position. Then out any of several exits above. He could have rim walked and retreated all the way to the original “disembarkment from the boat” spot or found another route down to the pool. We used some such routes on the next trip to access adjacent canyons. Remember, this world tends to be horizontal. The world often gets too tight before it gets too deep. Stevie’s idea to rap someone down, and pick amoung a huge pile of anchor material, raise it up and use it to rap off of, is very sound too. This challenging canyon only had the 2 rappels (The 50 and 265 footers at the end). Lots of potholes and a few off the deck squeezers to test your imagination and clibing skills. As for the beta on the anchor….These fellows would never think to spoil all the fun by telling us how to…if they even remembered. And with the way canyons change…and over so many years?….Well, pretty futile. You go, you look, you solve. The 2nd group (Tom, Roy, Hank and I, I think) had more time and with great effort, they shuttled rocks, nice hard ones, from a pothole up canyon, and build a chockstone anchor in a constriction. Equalized with the pack anchor and backed up with a human anchor too, as long as it was easily available. Its a magnificent rap into a beautiful alcove. Ram
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote: > I don’t know you personally Brian, I do appreciate your PSA on the whole pack anchor thread, however, I’m guessing you know all to well where I’m going with this. If you’re not ready to pioneer stuff be smart enough to know it. Stay safe and play at your level, I do. It’s still fun to read about the people who are playing at the next level. The name Kip > comes to mind for some reason.
And so does the name Brian Cabe. More than his share of pioneering routes in Zion. The big stuff he has walked to the edge of and dropped off….. I should beg him to tell that story of the big wall canyon where his rope came up a little short….Not to mention an extensive climbing resume and multiple major Alaska/Yukon ascents. He knows commitment well. The East Ridge on Logan, for sure. He also backed off of Foraker, when he found bad conditions, this last May. A wise, long term player and survivor. I will keep inviting him whenever I go to do something “interesting.” The world is a safer place with the big guy next to ya. R
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote: > The only person in a jam was Bucky lets not forget.
In excellent leadership style, completely true
Everyone else was > on solid ground. To me that was a despicable way to deal with the > result of poor planning…put in on Bucky….of course since God gave > them eyes to see and brains to plan, its sort of inexusable to depend > on high stress survival mode.
Poor planning? A canyon provided “more than expected” challenge. It was dealt with. Due to lower lake levels, in a sense this part of the canyon was being seen and descended for the first time in at least 35 years. Doesn’t that intrigue you? For some, no and thats OK. Don’t go to these places. The group had enough resourses and smarts to overcome the obstacles. Sometimes you get tested. Job well done.
> Not to rehash this was due to no planning(was there even a first aid > kit?), if we go back in time to that exact spot, there is only one > option.
Wow! That is a leap! Because they choose to test themselves in challenging, largely beta free canyon area, you assume they are reckless and don’t even carry a 1st aid kit? Unfair and inaccurate. May you be graced with partners such as there guys and gals. To be with Bucky is to be safer. Ram
desertres
OK, so I misread it, and it was weighted fully before the final rap. Just needed the clarification.
Have I been in failure situations? Yes,sort of embarassing, but..
North Dome descent… http://www.topozone.com/map.asp? z=11&n=4181564&e=274305&s=50&size=l&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25
Photo… http://www.supertopo.com/rockclimbing/gallery.html?r=yondcres
Well at least I didnt have to worry about rappelling. I barely admitted failure and used my preplanned exit. Had I gone any further, I would be dead right now as I was alone as well.
Im not bashing about leaving the backpack though. Bolt, backpack, your choice. Maybe cover the bolt with sand so as not to offend the purists.. Curious though, what did the beta say the anchor was? And what was it backed up with on the 2nd time descent…another backpack? a hook?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote: > Have you ever been in a spot like this? I’ve been in sorta similar situations. The anchor was weighted fully prior to it’s use by Bucky. I think the sanity of the solution is lost on those who can’t understand the problem from experience. It was out there for sure! Maybe smarter than all the sheep who blindly use the anchors in Pine Creek everyday.
Baahhhh, > Neil
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dave Pimental” wrote: > i DO think that style counts/to you and for only you/not to be imposed upon others,but for you(and me,and each of us)/
it occurred to me that,in a pinch,one could use a rope bag or pull cord bag for an anchor in the same(controversial)manner or as an extra pot-shot or two/this could reduce gear being carried,no?/of course,you’d have to be willing to sacrifice some gear to unintended wear and tear/don’t worry,i would tie it across the middle rather than by the straps…/ >
The Pot Shot is designed with structural handles, and a cleaning cord on the bottom. In some circumstances, a stack of three could be used (with advantageous geometry), filled with sand as an anchor. With correct rigging, the three could be loaded simultaneously for the rappel; then cleaned sequentially, possibly dumping the sand out on the way down. This is an expert-only technique, so use with caution. I have, fortunately, not needed to try this yet.
Tom