From: “beadysee” beadysee@yahoo.com>
> Another reason, is that when you jugging a rope, especially steep or free air, there might be some contact with the rope sheath on the rock. And, the sheath can be damaged.<
Or the sheath may have been that way to begin with, isn’t that right, Brian?
Dean
ian bailey
Regardless of what you write about Aaron, he is very much (H) armless. If he had not stuffed up , and make no bones about it, he did stuffed up , I we would never have heard of him and he would be (H) armful. Ian Fat Hen Productions 2003 Active Watch http://www.exptech.com/aw/4/s/1.asp?d=030613013505+1000000
—– Original Message —– From: Christopher Jain To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: how to double rope rap to single rope ascend?
Teuns Kok Teuns.Kok@capetown.gov.za> wrote:
>>>>>>I think it’s important to carry some kind of mechanical ascender with you and KNOW how to use it!
My experience with them may be atypical, but the standard old prussik knots seem to work pretty well for me.
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Christopher Jain
Teuns Kok Teuns.Kok@capetown.gov.za> wrote:
>>>>>>I think it’s important to carry some kind of mechanical ascender with you and KNOW how to use it!
My experience with them may be atypical, but the standard old prussik knots seem to work pretty well for me.
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gajslk
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Michele Angileri” wrote: > I always use rings of steel or trees and wrote thinking all canyoneers do > the same … sorry. I also felt the name “auto-moulinette” would be > self-explaining … > Some folks here are very experienced, others are rank beginners. That’s why I jumped in on something that most of us find obvious. Hope you didn’t take it wrong.
> It may be dangerous to pass rap rope into an anchor ring of cord or webbing > without using a carabiner or a ring of steel. Once I saw rope scrolling into > the ring while my partner was rapping. I didn’t understand why the two > halves of rope were scrolling at a different speed into its figure eight … > however I realized it can happen, so today I always use rings of steel > (maillon rapides).
If you’re doing a double rope rappel on a figure-8, the strand on the outside follows a longer path through the device. Either the knot jams in your quicklink/maillon/rap ring, or the rope slides the other way, with the knot moving away from the ring. This saws at whatever is there. If it’s webbing, you’re playing with fire.
Gordon
Michele Angileri
—– Original Message —– From: “gajslk” gajslk@worldnet.att.net>
> If you’ve run the rope through webbing at the top, this is a quick > way to die, assuming that the webbing doesn’t cut before you’re far > enough off the ground to kill yourself.
Right. Auto-moulinette has to be used only on anchors with a ring of steel or a carabiner, and can be used with rope anchored around a tree (no webbing).
I always use rings of steel or trees and wrote thinking all canyoneers do the same … sorry. I also felt the name “auto-moulinette” would be self-explaining …
It may be dangerous to pass rap rope into an anchor ring of cord or webbing without using a carabiner or a ring of steel. Once I saw rope scrolling into the ring while my partner was rapping. I didn’t understand why the two halves of rope were scrolling at a different speed into its figure eight … however I realized it can happen, so today I always use rings of steel (maillon rapides).
Michele
hmoon@petzl.com
>Ahem, I’ve had my Croll come off the rope once when wrestling >to get over an overhang – didn’t touch the rock, just got twisted >and loaded/unloaded in some weird ways .
>These things do happen, I’ve seen it happen a few times with >students on courses (freehanging, no rub) – Murphy’s law…
No doubt they can come off, but spontaneous failure is the main reason I’ve heard given for tying in short. Students frequently thumb the safety catch when downclimbing (no-no) and I’ve seen them come off that way. Your Croll probably came off due to contact with the overhang you were wrestling and/or because the rope wasn’t vertical. I might tie in short before attempting to surmount a difficult lip, but I never do so on a straightforward rope ascent – no reason to.
Talking about canyon(eer)ing here, not aid climbing or other…
hank
Koen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “gajslk” wrote: > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Michele Angileri”
Bo Beck
Sittin thru 3- 3 week courses RFR, and trying not to fall asleep during the videos of numerous scenarios (staged and not) computer linked and not; fall factor= distance of fall / rope in service, when we get above fall factor 1, then were talkin bout some potential for real damage. When I didn’t know better, I probably shook off (luckily) a FF 1.5 on Prodigal Son. Nothin hurt cept my knees from bangin the wall. I wont climb above my anchor clipped in with a spectra daisy again though.The amount of force is reduced in a fall if there are two people involved on the same rope etc. Each person recieves an equal amount of the force, not that it matters, except in a victim or litter raise or lower, and even the litter will recieve a % of the force. So if your going to tie in short and suspect you are going to fall, why not have someone else with you to share in the fun!!!! Really though, falling on a static rope isn’t as bad as it may sound but not reccommended. Bo —– Original Message —– From: beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 12:13 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: how to double rope rap to single rope ascend?
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
How do you calculate a fall factor where somebody whizzes 15 ft
down a static rope on a faulty ascender and blocks on a knot –
the ascender being attached with a carabiner to the harness or
with a 2 ft piece of ungiving webbing ?
Here you go: http://www.losalamos.org/climb/xRopes.pdf
> Bon appetite!
> I don’t care about the exact fall factor/force but everything will > be
broken: body, rope, webbing, anchor if not capable of holding a
small truck and probably carabiner as well – the belt might be the
only thing holding some pieces together.
Nah, I fall aid climbing on a daisy chain and haven’t been ripped in > half (yet).
F=ma? Plus, you’ve got a bunch of dynamic loading built into the > system, methinks. Slack in harness, slippage, back up knot > tightening, rope over rock, anchor knot tightening. Slows things > down. And, even if you’re on a static line, you’ll have some rope > stretch. 3% versus a climbing rope with 7%? And folks take TONS of > short falls on climbing ropes all the time, and don’t get ripped in > half.
> Your only chance might be to do that at the very bottom of a 200 ft
static rope with decent elongation, I wouldn’t try it on spectra…
Wouldn’t want to try it period!
Brian in SLC
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
> To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &quot;Edit My > Membership&quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press &quot;Save > Changes&quot;.
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Shane Burrows
>>I prefer to have my buddies set up a hauling system on one strand and pulley me up to the top on the other while I take my ease. So far I haven’t been able to sell this method, but I haven’t given up hope.
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > How do you calculate a fall factor where somebody whizzes 15 ft > down a static rope on a faulty ascender and blocks on a knot – > the ascender being attached with a carabiner to the harness or > with a 2 ft piece of ungiving webbing ?
Here you go: http://www.losalamos.org/climb/xRopes.pdf
Bon appetite!
> I don’t care about the exact fall factor/force but everything will be > broken: body, rope, webbing, anchor if not capable of holding a > small truck and probably carabiner as well – the belt might be the > only thing holding some pieces together.
Nah, I fall aid climbing on a daisy chain and haven’t been ripped in half (yet).
F=ma? Plus, you’ve got a bunch of dynamic loading built into the system, methinks. Slack in harness, slippage, back up knot tightening, rope over rock, anchor knot tightening. Slows things down. And, even if you’re on a static line, you’ll have some rope stretch. 3% versus a climbing rope with 7%? And folks take TONS of short falls on climbing ropes all the time, and don’t get ripped in half.
> Your only chance might be to do that at the very bottom of a 200 ft > static rope with decent elongation, I wouldn’t try it on spectra…
Wouldn’t want to try it period!
Brian in SLC
Koen
You’ll never see greater than a factor .5 fall force, but your anchors may > not like it! > The more rope in the system the less the force your body will take. > Certainly your body will feel a bigger jolt on static rope. Better tying off > short on dynamics; however practical on statics as well. I would say never > fall from above your anchor while tied in short. Here your body might make > some cracklin’ noises. >
How do you calculate a fall factor where somebody whizzes 15 ft down a static rope on a faulty ascender and blocks on a knot – the ascender being attached with a carabiner to the harness or with a 2 ft piece of ungiving webbing ?
I don’t care about the exact fall factor/force but everything will be broken: body, rope, webbing, anchor if not capable of holding a small truck and probably carabiner as well – the belt might be the only thing holding some pieces together.
Your only chance might be to do that at the very bottom of a 200 ft static rope with decent elongation, I wouldn’t try it on spectra…
Koen
Koen
*** Perhaps, but so far as I know no modern ascender in good working order > has ever spontaneously popped off a vertical rope. Most ascender knots > can’t come off the rope very easily. Tying off short these days seems > mostly psycho-pro, but probably a very good idea if your judgment is off > (i.e. tired, hypothermic, etc.). >
Ahem, I’ve had my Croll come off the rope once when wrestling to get over an overhang – didn’t touch the rock, just got twisted and loaded/unloaded in some weird ways .
These things do happen, I’ve seen it happen a few times with students on courses (freehanging, no rub) – Murphy’s law…
Koen
gajslk
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Michele Angileri” wrote: > However there is a simple answer: “auto-moulinette”.
If you’ve run the rope through webbing at the top, this is a quick way to die, assuming that the webbing doesn’t cut before you’re far enough off the ground to kill yourself.
Gordon
gajslk
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > … bunch of good ideas … > How about those ideas? Which one do you like?
I prefer to have my buddies set up a hauling system on one strand and pulley me up to the top on the other while I take my ease. So far I haven’t been able to sell this method, but I haven’t given up hope.
Gordon
Bo Beck
That being three prussic loops, one for the waist, one for each leg?
Do you connect the leg prussics to both ropes, or each one separately? If each separately, do you see any movement or sliding of the ropes (or does the waist prussic lock off and prevent the ropes from seesawing at the anchor?)?
I put all 3 prussiks on both ropes if it is possible, if not I climb until the second rope is available, then make sure I get all 3 prussiks wrapped onto both ropes. You’ll see see-sawing if you use foot prussiks on separate single ropes.
Bo Beck
Koen Says: DON’T do that on static rope !!! Or make a knot every foot or so…
You’ll never see greater than a factor .5 fall force, but your anchors may not like it! The more rope in the system the less the force your body will take. Certainly your body will feel a bigger jolt on static rope. Better tying off short on dynamics; however practical on statics as well. I would say never fall from above your anchor while tied in short. Here your body might make some cracklin’ noises. Bo
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote: > From: “beadysee” air, there might be some contact with the rope sheath on the rock. And, the > sheath can be damaged.< Or the sheath may have been that way to begin with, isn't that right, Brian? Yeah, ugh. Didn't "begin" that way, though. Note to self...check ropes that folks have rapped on...because you can't trust your buds who borrowed your rope to tell you they damaged it... My bad, though. Good thing t'was a fatty. Now is a 220 and 80 foot static. Yippee. Fun gig that was though, eh? Nuttin' better than a combo platter... Another piece of gear I've come to really like lately....Bluewaters Titan runner sewn as a "rabbit runner" (loop sewn in each end). Great as a French (freedom?) braid, mini web-o-lette, shoulder sling, foot stirrup (can girth hitch thru loop to snug on foot) etc etc. Part of my standard "kit" now. Brian in SLC
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > I was wondering what Joe meant with that !
DON’T do that on static rope !!! Or make a knot every foot or so…
Doesn’t most static rope have at least some (3% or more?) elongation? Isn’t a longer fall “safer” (or less jarring) than a shorter one with a higher fall factor? Not that I’d care to fall on a static line…
I think climbers typically jug the lead line, which is dynamic.
> If not, the resulting fall factor will kill/break you anyway if you’re > stupid enough not to ascend with the “classic” setup: rope clamp > on harness, rope clamp in your hand AND a separate safety line > going from your harness to your hand ascender. > If your belt ascender fails, you’re backed up by your hand > ascender – if your hand ascender fails you’re still on your > harness. Easy, safe, no need to get nervous and lose time > making dangerous knots below you ! The standard cavers > set-up.
Yeah but. I guess wall climbers typically use back ups as they routinely take their jugs off the rope when cleaning a pitch (also keep the bulk of the rope closer for hauling up at the end of a pitch especially nice if its windy, the rope is whippin’ around loose rocks, and there is a party below you).
Yosemite method…wow…never thought of those folk as stupid…
Tying back up knots in the rope you’re ascending is pretty difficult if its one of a number of fixed lines, you’re the first one up the rope, and they are tied in to the anchor below…
> If you want to ascend using only two hand ascenders and none > on your harness you’ll need two safety lines , waste of gear !
But MUCH faster on low angle slabs…and, if you’re using two daisy chains anyhow…(especially the adjustable ones)…then you’d be just dancin’ with them that brung ya.
Brian in SLC
hmoon@petzl.com
Well, that makes me a beginner too! I tie off short all the time. Good piece of mine.
*** Perhaps, but so far as I know no modern ascender in good working order has ever spontaneously popped off a vertical rope. Most ascender knots can’t come off the rope very easily. Tying off short these days seems mostly psycho-pro, but probably a very good idea if your judgment is off (i.e. tired, hypothermic, etc.).
Another reason, is that when you jugging a rope, especially steep or free air, there might be some contact with the rope sheath on the rock. And, the sheath can be damaged. If your jugging air, and twisting, its concievable that you could cut the sheath all the way around…and…folks have died when the sheath slid off the rope when they were jugging.
*** Tying a single knot in the rope below you will solve that prob…
Any one try a “Hedden” knot for ascending? I wonder how it’d bite a double rope. Seems very easy to move up quickly. Another neat method is the “RBS” (aka “arbs”) knot. Biner on a cord and seems riggable one handed. Anyone used? Also, effective on double ropes?
*** Haven’t tried either, but glad you mentioned them – been meaning to give ’em both a twirl. I’ll let you know the results…
hank “the DA” moon