Thanks for the cleanup effort, Rick.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo”
Speak of Illusions, almost all of the single bolts (the unnecessary ones) are gone and patched over. There is one left at the rappel through the arch, which admittedly could be avoided with a counter balance, but unless you use to ropes, or some webbing, that would put rope grooves in the arch, and since it seemed that most people wouldn’t go through that kind of effort.
Someone had pulled the hangers already. (hi-five!)
The rope grooves appear to be bad I think only at one particular. If the rope is set low instead of high, it helps a lot. Kind of hard to explain, you would have to see it.
The potholes are all completely full, even though it hasn’t rained too recently. Quite chilly though. >
Cristina
Hi Jenny, is still valid your offer to exchange princess t-shirt with bright tight from the 80’s? my JRAT collection is starting to show sign of abuse and I will like some replacements.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Jenny” wrote:
> Cristina, > Welcome aboard and thanks for the fun post. Do continue to speak it, as you see it. All perspectives are welcome and yours is certainly a unique one.
< But at the end are all fun people to be around with at campfire!!! ok most of them..... Yes, in the end, the vast majority of canyoneers are great folk, fun and enjoy a good chat around the campfire. Jenny > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Cristina” wrote:
Hi
you still did not find out that there are people with very strong EGO?
i think it started competing with the “Author”, and got out of control.
Now everybody want to be a “DISCOVER”
but nobody of them ,and when i said Nobody I know what I am talking about, has the gout to take a piece of crap rabbit go in the middle of nowhere for weeks at the time eating pretty much only sardine’s cans, not using internet or gps but a compass and a topo map and scout by himself alone the full Colorado plateau rapping from an hook ( witnessed and was scary as hell how that guy did not kill himself is a mistery to me)
and the funny thing is that the guy never talk about EGO but he just do to pay bills,so for him is “BUSINESS”
every body else try to use this sport to gain their little popularity moment.
using websites or secret underground society of no disclosure canyons.
But at the end are all fun people to be around with at campfire!!! ok most of them…..
i think will be fun to drop them in some undiscover canyons in south america whithout their rope gun or climbing spiders and see how they will agree on things.
Kind of SURVIVORS tv show. >
Jenny
Cristina, Welcome aboard and thanks for the fun post. Do continue to speak it, as you see it. All perspectives are welcome and yours is certainly a unique one.
Yes, in the end, the vast majority of canyoneers are great folk, fun and enjoy a good chat around the campfire.
Jenny — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Cristina” wrote:
Hi > you still did not find out that there are people with very strong EGO? > i think it started competing with the “Author”, and got out of control. > Now everybody want to be a “DISCOVER”
but nobody of them ,and when i said Nobody I know what I am talking about, has the gout to take a piece of crap rabbit go in the middle of nowhere for weeks at the time eating pretty much only sardine’s cans, not using internet or gps but a compass and a topo map and scout by himself alone the full Colorado plateau rapping from an hook ( witnessed and was scary as hell how that guy did not kill himself is a mistery to me) > and the funny thing is that the guy never talk about EGO but he just do to pay bills,so for him is “BUSINESS” > every body else try to use this sport to gain their little popularity moment. > using websites or secret underground society of no disclosure canyons.
But at the end are all fun people to be around with at campfire!!! ok most of them…..
i think will be fun to drop them in some undiscover canyons in south america whithout their rope gun or climbing spiders and see how they will agree on things.
Kind of SURVIVORS tv show.
Cristina
Hi you still did not find out that there are people with very strong EGO? i think it started competing with the “Author”, and got out of control. Now everybody want to be a “DISCOVER”
but nobody of them ,and when i said Nobody I know what I am talking about, has the gout to take a piece of crap rabbit go in the middle of nowhere for weeks at the time eating pretty much only sardine’s cans, not using internet or gps but a compass and a topo map and scout by himself alone the full Colorado plateau rapping from an hook ( witnessed and was scary as hell how that guy did not kill himself is a mistery to me) and the funny thing is that the guy never talk about EGO but he just do to pay bills,so for him is “BUSINESS” every body else try to use this sport to gain their little popularity moment. using websites or secret underground society of no disclosure canyons.
But at the end are all fun people to be around with at campfire!!! ok most of them…..
i think will be fun to drop them in some undiscover canyons in south america whithout their rope gun or climbing spiders and see how they will agree on things.
Kind of SURVIVORS tv show.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan wrote:
Ok I knew that if I used an example that somehow my point may be missed.
So for the example I used….. how does the last man get lowered down safely? There are some raps situated such that hanging the rap ring over the edge can put the canyoneer in an awkward not to fun position to start the rap. Pandoras Box has one that comes to mind. Where is a good place for a new canyoneer to learn this? And this is only an example of something that should be easy access to new canyoneers so they learn quicker.
Sure anyone who sets up a good anchor should know how to set this up. But what about an inexperienced canyoneer? What about when they need to re work the anchor. What if they see it rigged properly but don’t understand what to do and change it so they feel safe? Blah blah blah……
I am just saying a lot more effort could be put into getting knowledge (both technical and local ethics) to the noobs. Noobs are always commihng in and while mentors are good there a lot of people that won’t find one or don’t want one.
If someone truly doesn’t give a sh*&% about rope grooves it is hard to reach them and get them to alter their methods. But noobs can cause damage out of sheer ignorance of how to do things and why. Seems a little more effort on getting this stuff out there would be good.
On that note I have wanted to do that on my website but lack time. Life is a busy place. I have put this out to some in my circle of friends but haven’t had much come of it yet. So let me put it out here publicly.
I would like to add some how tos to my site rather it be local ethics or tech knowledge. The aim is getting info out to the noobs about things to help them be safe. Things like choke stone anchors, how to make a good cairn anchor. Backing up an anchor to test, courtesy belay, how to ascend etc etc. If anyone feels passionate about something that would help add knowledge to the community and actually write something, I would be happy to post it on my site. I would give the writer full credit. If the content is questionable and a topic frequently argued over to the death then I will not add those topics. The how to section should contain knowledge that is pretty common knowledge to the experienced but noobs need to see.
My point was not about anchors with my last post. That was only an example. The point was we could do more in the way of getting good skills taught to noobs before they grow into old habits or become opinionated enough to ignore input.
Luke
Sent from my phone
rging@… wrote:
>”Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a
simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to
keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this
feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer.”
That would be a top belay (courtesy belay) off a meat anchor or similar just until you are tight on the rope and situated. Anyone that is skilled enough to build a safe anchor should know this so the problem must lie elsewhere. Maybe some people don’t care about rope grooves?
—– Original Message —–
From: Luke To: Yahoo Canyons Group
>Sent: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:18:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
I have glanced at this thread just a little only because it seems to have a
common thread running in it as the Undisclosed Canyons thread running now as
well. Ok aside from all the name calling and trash talking which I tend to
ignore.
I am curious is there still a secret canyon theme running in AZ? I don’t
mean are there a few secret canyons out there. What I mean is, is there
still an active set of people who propagate beta in the middle ground
between sharing and secret keeping like “show don’t tell” or pics and
stories with no location, or only share with close friends etc. Or has that
mostly calmed down after a large amount of beta has been spewed? Just
curious.
Seems to me if we share this stuff openly and avoid all the high school “in
crowd” or cloak and dagger who do I trust BS, then a lot of the drama dies
off. It’s just an open canyoneering world where we all go play in cool
places. Since we humans seem to have an affinity for finding something to
hate and gang up to attack it, maybe we could focus that aggressive energy
into tracking down those with bad ethics and work to police the canyons.
Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a
simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to
keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this
feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer. I haven’t found a good source (online
or book) that helps explain how to do this safely in a way that a noob will
be ok with and actually take the time to do. Ok I haven’t looked that hard
for it but it does seem we could focus our energy on policing the numb nuts
out there and trying to educate the new canyoneers who may not yet know
better.
That seems to be a lot more productive use of energy than playing cloak and
dagger, secret canyon, elitist games.
I have no knowledge of the illusions beta outlet or the trashing of canyons
etc. I also have no intent of even trying to get into it. Way too much
drama there. But I am genuinely curious if the middle ground drama club
scene has ramped down after a lot of canyons were ousted?
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of
vapormanb
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:20 PM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
>Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
If you’re going to rant and insult others, at least get the facts
straight…
Leifer didn’t remove those PVC monstrosities because I know who did and it
wasn’t Leifer. As of a month ago, the one in Insomnia is still there until
my friend goes back and removes it. =p The crew who had the accident in
Insomnia had plenty of beta from my postings on hikearizona.com and the
accident had NOTHING to do with lack of beta. I’ve since become good friends
with some of that group and have done a few tough canyons with them. So it
pains me to see them thrown under the bus all in the name of ‘proving’ some
juvenile point…
When I first was getting interested in canyoneering, it was very tough to
get started in AZ because there were only a few beta’d canyons out there.
But thankfully Todd soon released his book and the field was blown wide
open. There were still secret canyons out there in the Anchas, Mazzies, West
Fork, and the Grand Canyon but those would be saved for when I was
experienced enough to go looking for them. Got confirmation that my guesses
on the West Fork canyons were accurate in exchange that I’d post beta & pics
on HAZ. I continued finding more secret canyons in the Anchas & Mazzies and
posted those on HAZ as well so that other newer canyoneers could enjoy them
just like my friends and I were able to enjoy them. Do I regret sharing
others discoveries without there permission? Not one bit! Only beta I got
from them was their very revealing photos posted online. I’ve found a few of
my own canyon discoveries and have openly shared those online as well. Grand
Can! yon book came out a bit after than and again blew open the AZ canyon
scene. Kind of nice to have all these loads of canyons available for us down
here in AZ to enjoy with most of the AZ canyon drama being in the past… It
seems ridiculous for you to rock the boat again, stir up old conflicts, and
insult Leifer over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who
wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group ,
“JosephD/Sara” wrote:
>> Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the
time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some
one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the
canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear.
> Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the
register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and
additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.
>> Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his
own accord.
> Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed
rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice.
> Does this clarify it for you?
> I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good.
> -Joe
>