Ask me again why I like to keep things off the radar? Why do others in the canyoneering world keep things off the radar? Simple answer: Because of parasites. It seems that the good news about Illusions and Insomnia are out of the bag, and with it comes what I feared most. A little honest back history: I found these two canyons among others in the area and with Todd Martin, we and a small group spent countless hours reconning and finally making first descents on them.
We kept them quiet, but gave beta on other canyons in the hopes that these would remain safe and out of public view. Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
Well, time has passed, and the damage is done. What damage? How can you damage a canyon? If you’re asking yourself this then you really have no idea about the work it takes to find, and then maintain a canyon. How dare you say?! Well, just ask the park service about zion canyons….
To date: Illusions has 5 new bolts (none were needed), first and last with hangers missing, the other three are spinners and not even tight. Rope grooves, trash, and tour guides leading people who have no business or ethics coming down the canyon. Oh did I forget to mention the rare species of Bugbane that I mentioned early on in posts? Yes that to is gone, trampled by the kiddy canyoneers. Insomnia: trash, trampled, grooved, bolts, oh and a very expensive rescue because an ‘experienced’ canyoneer couldn’t control his descent on the big rap and almost died, good job buddy!
The new bolt station on the big rap (not needed at all), with hot pink webbing to be seen from afar, thanks to Tyler Williams who couldn’t be bothered to bring the required gear into the canyon when the register I left as a warning to those who found it: “315′ rap! bring enough rope!, keepers, etc..”(more detail was given) but thought he could do it with a 200′ rope. Thanks to him and many others who have trampled the crap out of these two gems. Most people on this board have good ethics, this is purely a rant, so don’t take it personally, but if you do you just might be a parasite. Thanks! -Joe
rickinlo
Speak of Illusions, almost all of the single bolts (the unnecessary ones) are gone and patched over. There is one left at the rappel through the arch, which admittedly could be avoided with a counter balance, but unless you use to ropes, or some webbing, that would put rope grooves in the arch, and since it seemed that most people wouldn’t go through that kind of effort.
Someone had pulled the hangers already. (hi-five!)
The rope grooves appear to be bad I think only at one particular. If the rope is set low instead of high, it helps a lot. Kind of hard to explain, you would have to see it.
The potholes are all completely full, even though it hasn’t rained too recently. Quite chilly though.
Luke Galyan
Ok I knew that if I used an example that somehow my point may be missed.
So for the example I used….. how does the last man get lowered down safely? There are some raps situated such that hanging the rap ring over the edge can put the canyoneer in an awkward not to fun position to start the rap. Pandoras Box has one that comes to mind. Where is a good place for a new canyoneer to learn this? And this is only an example of something that should be easy access to new canyoneers so they learn quicker.
Sure anyone who sets up a good anchor should know how to set this up. But what about an inexperienced canyoneer? What about when they need to re work the anchor. What if they see it rigged properly but don’t understand what to do and change it so they feel safe? Blah blah blah……
I am just saying a lot more effort could be put into getting knowledge (both technical and local ethics) to the noobs. Noobs are always commihng in and while mentors are good there a lot of people that won’t find one or don’t want one.
If someone truly doesn’t give a sh*&% about rope grooves it is hard to reach them and get them to alter their methods. But noobs can cause damage out of sheer ignorance of how to do things and why. Seems a little more effort on getting this stuff out there would be good.
On that note I have wanted to do that on my website but lack time. Life is a busy place. I have put this out to some in my circle of friends but haven’t had much come of it yet. So let me put it out here publicly.
I would like to add some how tos to my site rather it be local ethics or tech knowledge. The aim is getting info out to the noobs about things to help them be safe. Things like choke stone anchors, how to make a good cairn anchor. Backing up an anchor to test, courtesy belay, how to ascend etc etc. If anyone feels passionate about something that would help add knowledge to the community and actually write something, I would be happy to post it on my site. I would give the writer full credit. If the content is questionable and a topic frequently argued over to the death then I will not add those topics. The how to section should contain knowledge that is pretty common knowledge to the experienced but noobs need to see.
My point was not about anchors with my last post. That was only an example. The point was we could do more in the way of getting good skills taught to noobs before they grow into old habits or become opinionated enough to ignore input.
Luke
Sent from my phone
rging@q.com wrote:
>”Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a >simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to >keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this >feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer.”
That would be a top belay (courtesy belay) off a meat anchor or similar just until you are tight on the rope and situated. Anyone that is skilled enough to build a safe anchor should know this so the problem must lie elsewhere. Maybe some people don’t care about rope grooves?
—– Original Message —– >From: Luke luke@bluugnome.com
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Sent: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:18:49 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
I have glanced at this thread just a little only because it seems to have a
>common thread running in it as the Undisclosed Canyons thread running now as
>well. Ok aside from all the name calling and trash talking which I tend to
>ignore.
I am curious is there still a secret canyon theme running in AZ? I don’t
>mean are there a few secret canyons out there. What I mean is, is there
>still an active set of people who propagate beta in the middle ground
>between sharing and secret keeping like “show don’t tell” or pics and
>stories with no location, or only share with close friends etc. Or has that
>mostly calmed down after a large amount of beta has been spewed? Just
>curious.
Seems to me if we share this stuff openly and avoid all the high school “in
>crowd” or cloak and dagger who do I trust BS, then a lot of the drama dies
>off. It’s just an open canyoneering world where we all go play in cool
>places. Since we humans seem to have an affinity for finding something to
>hate and gang up to attack it, maybe we could focus that aggressive energy
>into tracking down those with bad ethics and work to police the canyons.
Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a
>simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to
>keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this
>feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer. I haven’t found a good source (online
>or book) that helps explain how to do this safely in a way that a noob will
>be ok with and actually take the time to do. Ok I haven’t looked that hard
>for it but it does seem we could focus our energy on policing the numb nuts
>out there and trying to educate the new canyoneers who may not yet know
>better.
That seems to be a lot more productive use of energy than playing cloak and
>dagger, secret canyon, elitist games.
I have no knowledge of the illusions beta outlet or the trashing of canyons
>etc. I also have no intent of even trying to get into it. Way too much
>drama there. But I am genuinely curious if the middle ground drama club
>scene has ramped down after a lot of canyons were ousted?
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of
>vapormanb
>Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:20 PM
>To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
If you’re going to rant and insult others, at least get the facts
>straight…
Leifer didn’t remove those PVC monstrosities because I know who did and it
>wasn’t Leifer. As of a month ago, the one in Insomnia is still there until
>my friend goes back and removes it. =p The crew who had the accident in
>Insomnia had plenty of beta from my postings on hikearizona.com and the
>accident had NOTHING to do with lack of beta. I’ve since become good friends
>with some of that group and have done a few tough canyons with them. So it
>pains me to see them thrown under the bus all in the name of ‘proving’ some
>juvenile point…
When I first was getting interested in canyoneering, it was very tough to
>get started in AZ because there were only a few beta’d canyons out there.
>But thankfully Todd soon released his book and the field was blown wide
>open. There were still secret canyons out there in the Anchas, Mazzies, West
>Fork, and the Grand Canyon but those would be saved for when I was
>experienced enough to go looking for them. Got confirmation that my guesses
>on the West Fork canyons were accurate in exchange that I’d post beta & pics
>on HAZ. I continued finding more secret canyons in the Anchas & Mazzies and
>posted those on HAZ as well so that other newer canyoneers could enjoy them
>just like my friends and I were able to enjoy them. Do I regret sharing
>others discoveries without there permission? Not one bit! Only beta I got
>from them was their very revealing photos posted online. I’ve found a few of
>my own canyon discoveries and have openly shared those online as well. Grand
>Can! yon book came out a bit after than and again blew open the AZ canyon
>scene. Kind of nice to have all these loads of canyons available for us down
>here in AZ to enjoy with most of the AZ canyon drama being in the past… It
>seems ridiculous for you to rock the boat again, stir up old conflicts, and
>insult Leifer over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who
>wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group ,
>”JosephD/Sara” wrote:
>
> Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the
>time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some
>one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the
>canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear.
>> Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the
>register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and
>additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.
>
> Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his
>own accord.
>> Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed
>rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice.
>> Does this clarify it for you?
>> I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good.
>> -Joe
> >
rging@q.com
“Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer.”
That would be a top belay (courtesy belay) off a meat anchor or similar just until you are tight on the rope and situated. Anyone that is skilled enough to build a safe anchor should know this so the problem must lie elsewhere. Maybe some people don’t care about rope grooves?
—– Original Message —– From: Luke luke@bluugnome.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
I have glanced at this thread just a little only because it seems to have a
common thread running in it as the Undisclosed Canyons thread running now as
well. Ok aside from all the name calling and trash talking which I tend to
ignore.
I am curious is there still a secret canyon theme running in AZ? I don’t
mean are there a few secret canyons out there. What I mean is, is there
still an active set of people who propagate beta in the middle ground
between sharing and secret keeping like “show don’t tell” or pics and
stories with no location, or only share with close friends etc. Or has that
mostly calmed down after a large amount of beta has been spewed? Just
curious.
Seems to me if we share this stuff openly and avoid all the high school “in
crowd” or cloak and dagger who do I trust BS, then a lot of the drama dies
off. It’s just an open canyoneering world where we all go play in cool
places. Since we humans seem to have an affinity for finding something to
hate and gang up to attack it, maybe we could focus that aggressive energy
into tracking down those with bad ethics and work to police the canyons.
Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a
simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to
keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this
feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer. I haven’t found a good source (online
or book) that helps explain how to do this safely in a way that a noob will
be ok with and actually take the time to do. Ok I haven’t looked that hard
for it but it does seem we could focus our energy on policing the numb nuts
out there and trying to educate the new canyoneers who may not yet know
better.
That seems to be a lot more productive use of energy than playing cloak and
dagger, secret canyon, elitist games.
I have no knowledge of the illusions beta outlet or the trashing of canyons
etc. I also have no intent of even trying to get into it. Way too much
drama there. But I am genuinely curious if the middle ground drama club
scene has ramped down after a lot of canyons were ousted?
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of
vapormanb
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:20 PM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
If you’re going to rant and insult others, at least get the facts
straight…
Leifer didn’t remove those PVC monstrosities because I know who did and it
wasn’t Leifer. As of a month ago, the one in Insomnia is still there until
my friend goes back and removes it. =p The crew who had the accident in
Insomnia had plenty of beta from my postings on hikearizona.com and the
accident had NOTHING to do with lack of beta. I’ve since become good friends
with some of that group and have done a few tough canyons with them. So it
pains me to see them thrown under the bus all in the name of ‘proving’ some
juvenile point…
When I first was getting interested in canyoneering, it was very tough to
get started in AZ because there were only a few beta’d canyons out there.
But thankfully Todd soon released his book and the field was blown wide
open. There were still secret canyons out there in the Anchas, Mazzies, West
Fork, and the Grand Canyon but those would be saved for when I was
experienced enough to go looking for them. Got confirmation that my guesses
on the West Fork canyons were accurate in exchange that I’d post beta & pics
on HAZ. I continued finding more secret canyons in the Anchas & Mazzies and
posted those on HAZ as well so that other newer canyoneers could enjoy them
just like my friends and I were able to enjoy them. Do I regret sharing
others discoveries without there permission? Not one bit! Only beta I got
from them was their very revealing photos posted online. I’ve found a few of
my own canyon discoveries and have openly shared those online as well. Grand
Can! yon book came out a bit after than and again blew open the AZ canyon
scene. Kind of nice to have all these loads of canyons available for us down
here in AZ to enjoy with most of the AZ canyon drama being in the past… It
seems ridiculous for you to rock the boat again, stir up old conflicts, and
insult Leifer over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who
wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group ,
“JosephD/Sara” wrote:
>
> Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the
time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some
one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the
canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear.
> Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the
register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and
additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.
>
> Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his
own accord.
> Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed
rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice.
> Does this clarify it for you?
> I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good.
> -Joe
TomJones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
… over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(
Brian
Is there any evidence to support this position?
Tom
vapormanb
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
I am curious is there still a secret canyon theme running in AZ? I don’t > mean are there a few secret canyons out there. What I mean is, is there > still an active set of people who propagate beta in the middle ground > between sharing and secret keeping like “show don’t tell” or pics and > stories with no location, or only share with close friends etc. Or has that > mostly calmed down after a large amount of beta has been spewed? Just > curious.
Most of the drama has calmed down over the last year or so since many of the ‘secret canyons’ have already been revealed coupled with the release of the Grand Canyoneering book. Many new AZ canyoneers enjoy these ‘new canyons’ now with only a hint of the canyon dramas that took place before their arrival on the scene…
Brian
dsw2925
To further set the record straight from claims made here about Eric. Leifer never made 6-8 trips a year down Illusions/ Insomnia. Over the course of five years Eric has done Insomnia one time and Illusions at the most a handful of times.
I do agree self-limiting the numbers of times we descend these gems would be it in their best interest, particularly as they are becoming more popular.
-David
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “vapormanb” wrote:
If you’re going to rant and insult others, at least get the facts straight…
Leifer didn’t remove those PVC monstrosities because I know who did and it wasn’t Leifer. As of a month ago, the one in Insomnia is still there until my friend goes back and removes it. =p The crew who had the accident in Insomnia had plenty of beta from my postings on hikearizona.com and the accident had NOTHING to do with lack of beta. I’ve since become good friends with some of that group and have done a few tough canyons with them. So it pains me to see them thrown under the bus all in the name of ‘proving’ some juvenile point…
When I first was getting interested in canyoneering, it was very tough to get started in AZ because there were only a few beta’d canyons out there. But thankfully Todd soon released his book and the field was blown wide open. There were still secret canyons out there in the Anchas, Mazzies, West Fork, and the Grand Canyon but those would be saved for when I was experienced enough to go looking for them. Got confirmation that my guesses on the West Fork canyons were accurate in exchange that I’d post beta & pics on HAZ. I continued finding more secret canyons in the Anchas & Mazzies and posted those on HAZ as well so that other newer canyoneers could enjoy them just like my friends and I were able to enjoy them. Do I regret sharing others discoveries without there permission? Not one bit! Only beta I got from them was their very revealing photos posted online. I’ve found a few of my own canyon discoveries and have openly shared those online as well. Grand Canyon book came out a bit after than and again blew open the AZ canyon scene. Kind of nice to have all these loads of canyons available for us down here in AZ to enjoy with most of the AZ canyon drama being in the past… It seems ridiculous for you to rock the boat again, stir up old conflicts, and insult Leifer over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(
> Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear.
Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.
Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his own accord.
Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice.
Does this clarify it for you?
I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good.
-Joe >
Luke
I have glanced at this thread just a little only because it seems to have a common thread running in it as the Undisclosed Canyons thread running now as well. Ok aside from all the name calling and trash talking which I tend to ignore.
I am curious is there still a secret canyon theme running in AZ? I don’t mean are there a few secret canyons out there. What I mean is, is there still an active set of people who propagate beta in the middle ground between sharing and secret keeping like “show don’t tell” or pics and stories with no location, or only share with close friends etc. Or has that mostly calmed down after a large amount of beta has been spewed? Just curious.
Seems to me if we share this stuff openly and avoid all the high school “in crowd” or cloak and dagger who do I trust BS, then a lot of the drama dies off. It’s just an open canyoneering world where we all go play in cool places. Since we humans seem to have an affinity for finding something to hate and gang up to attack it, maybe we could focus that aggressive energy into tracking down those with bad ethics and work to police the canyons.
Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer. I haven’t found a good source (online or book) that helps explain how to do this safely in a way that a noob will be ok with and actually take the time to do. Ok I haven’t looked that hard for it but it does seem we could focus our energy on policing the numb nuts out there and trying to educate the new canyoneers who may not yet know better.
That seems to be a lot more productive use of energy than playing cloak and dagger, secret canyon, elitist games.
I have no knowledge of the illusions beta outlet or the trashing of canyons etc. I also have no intent of even trying to get into it. Way too much drama there. But I am genuinely curious if the middle ground drama club scene has ramped down after a lot of canyons were ousted?
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of vapormanb Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:20 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
If you’re going to rant and insult others, at least get the facts straight…
Leifer didn’t remove those PVC monstrosities because I know who did and it wasn’t Leifer. As of a month ago, the one in Insomnia is still there until my friend goes back and removes it. =p The crew who had the accident in Insomnia had plenty of beta from my postings on hikearizona.com and the accident had NOTHING to do with lack of beta. I’ve since become good friends with some of that group and have done a few tough canyons with them. So it pains me to see them thrown under the bus all in the name of ‘proving’ some juvenile point…
When I first was getting interested in canyoneering, it was very tough to get started in AZ because there were only a few beta’d canyons out there. But thankfully Todd soon released his book and the field was blown wide open. There were still secret canyons out there in the Anchas, Mazzies, West Fork, and the Grand Canyon but those would be saved for when I was experienced enough to go looking for them. Got confirmation that my guesses on the West Fork canyons were accurate in exchange that I’d post beta & pics on HAZ. I continued finding more secret canyons in the Anchas & Mazzies and posted those on HAZ as well so that other newer canyoneers could enjoy them just like my friends and I were able to enjoy them. Do I regret sharing others discoveries without there permission? Not one bit! Only beta I got from them was their very revealing photos posted online. I’ve found a few of my own canyon discoveries and have openly shared those online as well. Grand Can! yon book came out a bit after than and again blew open the AZ canyon scene. Kind of nice to have all these loads of canyons available for us down here in AZ to enjoy with most of the AZ canyon drama being in the past… It seems ridiculous for you to rock the boat again, stir up old conflicts, and insult Leifer over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear. > Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.
Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his own accord. > Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice. > Does this clarify it for you? > I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good. > -Joe
vapormanb
If you’re going to rant and insult others, at least get the facts straight…
Leifer didn’t remove those PVC monstrosities because I know who did and it wasn’t Leifer. As of a month ago, the one in Insomnia is still there until my friend goes back and removes it. =p The crew who had the accident in Insomnia had plenty of beta from my postings on hikearizona.com and the accident had NOTHING to do with lack of beta. I’ve since become good friends with some of that group and have done a few tough canyons with them. So it pains me to see them thrown under the bus all in the name of ‘proving’ some juvenile point…
When I first was getting interested in canyoneering, it was very tough to get started in AZ because there were only a few beta’d canyons out there. But thankfully Todd soon released his book and the field was blown wide open. There were still secret canyons out there in the Anchas, Mazzies, West Fork, and the Grand Canyon but those would be saved for when I was experienced enough to go looking for them. Got confirmation that my guesses on the West Fork canyons were accurate in exchange that I’d post beta & pics on HAZ. I continued finding more secret canyons in the Anchas & Mazzies and posted those on HAZ as well so that other newer canyoneers could enjoy them just like my friends and I were able to enjoy them. Do I regret sharing others discoveries without there permission? Not one bit! Only beta I got from them was their very revealing photos posted online. I’ve found a few of my own canyon discoveries and have openly shared those online as well. Grand Canyon book came out a bit after than and again blew open the AZ canyon scene. Kind of nice to have all these loads of canyons available for us down here in AZ to enjoy with most of the AZ canyon drama being in the past… It seems ridiculous for you to rock the boat again, stir up old conflicts, and insult Leifer over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(
Brian
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear. > Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.
Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his own accord. > Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice. > Does this clarify it for you? > I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good. > -Joe
Ice
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote: Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
One last item before I head back to my own sandbox…. I know you have personal issues with Eric and enjoy tossing him under the bus every chance you get….. but…. if you are going to start tossing people under the bus you had better chuck a few more under… as I had shared and swapped beta on illusions before Eric mentioned or posted anything on it.
Show don’t tell creates and interesting underworld where beta on “secret” slots is swapped, bartered and traded at a crazy rate and frequency. The only currency required to gain access is knowledge of one “off the radar slot” and you have enough coinage to trade for 3 or 4 more…. by trading one canyon you can increase your database exponentially in a very short period of time. A large number of canyoneers will trade their mother for beta on a “new” slot.
Ice
>>It is clear that the show not tell system we use is not perfect, but it is pretty darn good.
I disagree…. from my experiance show don’t tell has a positive effect in the short term but a larger degrading effect long term. The problem is sooner or later the genie gets out of the bottle. Word spreads pretty quickly… I mean really, what’s a couple years one way or the other in the total life span of a canyon? The major problems I see with show don’t tell are:
Folks go loaded for bear when descending the slots because they don’t have reliable beta. This results in both excessive bolting and rope grooves.
Lack of reliable beta creates numerous social trails as folks wander around looking for entrances, exits and rappel stations.
Lack of beta creates problems with land owners, private property, Indian nations and land managers as more canyoneers “discover” the slot.
A lack of area ethics for a particular slot or canyon system is not written down and established from the beginning, which again causes problems down the road.
Anyhoo…. that’s my 2 cents…. YMMV.
rging@q.com
And I thought the first rule about secret canyons was don’t talk about secret canyons. It’s pretty amazing how hard that appears to be with this group. Quite the egos out there.
—– Original Message —– From: TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update
Hmmmm.
Two of my friends verbally jousting and letting it get nasty.
Please cut the personal attacks. I have no problem with you-all declaring your views in plain language about the ISSUES, but if you do not know each other, then the personal attacks are…
crap.
childish.
bull.
inappropriate.
make you both look like idiots.
So, stop it, please.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
>
> Luca,
> Well, stealing Rich Rudrows beta on the Grand Canyon slots then descending them and calling them your own is a parasite. Eric is numero uno when it comes to this. Maybe that’s why the grand canyon park service is banning him…hmmmm…
>
> Oh you call it a “clean up” of our “ugly” anchors. Hmmmm… seems your bolting job is about as good as your ethics, the bolts that were placed ALL spun,the nuts spin, they’re grooved now, good job buddy!
>
> Actually my “friends” all have outstanding ethics unlike yourself. Grooves by us? Really? We descended Insomnia and Illusions ONCE per year unlike Eric taking 6-8 trips per year with multiple people. Nice ethics eh?
>
> Lets do simple math:
> One descent/year+natural anchors= zero rope grooves.
> Many descents/year+new bolts= Many rope grooves.
> Does this simplify it for you?
>
> My call? Why should I say as you wouldn’t respect my call either way, so why bother. You respect no ones “call”, thus you are continually banished from the old schooler canyoneers, and rightfully so.
> I think you need a hug, as you’ve never pioneered anything and feel inadequate, lonely and completely left out. It’s ok buddy, we all feel the same about you around here.
> Plus if you read my post, the last line said “this is a rant” no offense to anyone except those mentioned.
> -Joe
>
> p.s. I love playing master and commander, it’s actually my halloween costume this year, how’d you know? Judge Dredd wasn’t particularly good, so I opted for the previous one. BUT I might just go as me, it’s scary enough….
>
>
>
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “lucaadv” wrote:
Joe,
You should know that:
a) Secrecy to protect a canyon does not work long term
c) Clear beta reduces both unnecessary anchors and rescues
b) The canyoneering community is not all evil and parasites
Groups like American Canyoneers could speak to authorities to limit commercial and illegal guiding. The people that you call “parasites” can run bolting trips to tide up the ugly anchors and even pickup the trash that “your friends” left behind.
What is a “parasite”?
It sounds like to you a “parasite” is someone who uses pubblic available canyon beta. Well, then that will include me and everyone else on this forum, even yourself! Don’t you agree?
What is a “ruined” canyon?
Bolts, grooves and trash are a pitiful sight (especially knowing that were probably your close circle of friends that did it) but Imlay and Pine Creek and Seven Teacups have much of the same problem, and I would still not define them as “ruined”. Trash can be picked up, webbing replaced and bolts consolidated or repositioned.
So, why are they really “ruined”? Are they “ruined” because you are no longer the “Master and Commander” of the beta? Because you can no longer play “Judge Dredd” deciding who’s worthy and who is not?
I prefer to think you’re better than that!
You can choose to keep nagging about your failed secrecy and see Illusions and Imsomnia get worse and worse over time…
Or you can choose to enroll the whole canyoneering community to help protect and conserve these two wonderful canyons…
What is it going to be? It’s your call!
-Luca
PD: By the way, thank you for opening this canyons, they are real gems!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
>
> Ask me again why I like to keep things off the radar?
> Why do others in the canyoneering world keep things off the radar?
> Simple answer: Because of parasites.
> It seems that the good news about Illusions and Insomnia are out of the bag, and with it comes what I feared most.
> A little honest back history: I found these two canyons among others in the area and with Todd Martin, we and a small group spent countless hours reconning and finally making first descents on them.
>
> We kept them quiet, but gave beta on other canyons in the hopes that these would remain safe and out of public view.
> Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
>
> Well, time has passed, and the damage is done.
> What damage? How can you damage a canyon? If you’re asking yourself this then you really have no idea about the work it takes to find, and then maintain a canyon. How dare you say?! Well, just ask the park service about zion canyons….
>
> To date: Illusions has 5 new bolts (none were needed), first and last with hangers missing, the other three are spinners and not even tight. Rope grooves, trash, and tour guides leading people who have no business or ethics coming down the canyon. Oh did I forget to mention the rare species of Bugbane that I mentioned early on in posts? Yes that to is gone, trampled by the kiddy canyoneers.
> Insomnia: trash, trampled, grooved, bolts, oh and a very expensive rescue because an ‘experienced’ canyoneer couldn’t control his descent on the big rap and almost died, good job buddy!
>
> The new bolt station on the big rap (not needed at all), with hot pink webbing to be seen from afar, thanks to Tyler Williams who couldn’t be bothered to bring the required gear into the canyon when the register I left as a warning to those who found it: “315′ rap! bring enough rope!, keepers, etc..”(more detail was given) but thought he could do it with a 200′ rope. Thanks to him and many others who have trampled the crap out of these two gems.
> Most people on this board have good ethics, this is purely a rant, so don’t take it personally, but if you do you just might be a parasite.
> Thanks!
> -Joe
>
>
Ice
>> Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the time,
And I considered your bolt registers to be nothing but canyon trash that should have been removed. Nothing to spoil a wilderness experience more than finding a big ass PVC pipe stamped register hanging from a tree. To me your registers were more offending than half-a-dozen bolts.
YMMV
TomJones
Hmmmm.
Two of my friends verbally jousting and letting it get nasty.
Please cut the personal attacks. I have no problem with you-all declaring your views in plain language about the ISSUES, but if you do not know each other, then the personal attacks are…
crap. childish. bull. inappropriate. make you both look like idiots.
So, stop it, please.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Luca, > Well, stealing Rich Rudrows beta on the Grand Canyon slots then descending them and calling them your own is a parasite. Eric is numero uno when it comes to this. Maybe that’s why the grand canyon park service is banning him…hmmmm…
Oh you call it a “clean up” of our “ugly” anchors. Hmmmm… seems your bolting job is about as good as your ethics, the bolts that were placed ALL spun,the nuts spin, they’re grooved now, good job buddy!
Actually my “friends” all have outstanding ethics unlike yourself. Grooves by us? Really? We descended Insomnia and Illusions ONCE per year unlike Eric taking 6-8 trips per year with multiple people. Nice ethics eh?
Lets do simple math: > One descent/year+natural anchors= zero rope grooves. > Many descents/year+new bolts= Many rope grooves. > Does this simplify it for you?
My call? Why should I say as you wouldn’t respect my call either way, so why bother. You respect no ones “call”, thus you are continually banished from the old schooler canyoneers, and rightfully so. > I think you need a hug, as you’ve never pioneered anything and feel inadequate, lonely and completely left out. It’s ok buddy, we all feel the same about you around here. > Plus if you read my post, the last line said “this is a rant” no offense to anyone except those mentioned. > -Joe
p.s. I love playing master and commander, it’s actually my halloween costume this year, how’d you know? Judge Dredd wasn’t particularly good, so I opted for the previous one. BUT I might just go as me, it’s scary enough….
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “lucaadv” wrote:
Joe,
You should know that:
a) Secrecy to protect a canyon does not work long term
c) Clear beta reduces both unnecessary anchors and rescues
b) The canyoneering community is not all evil and parasites
Groups like American Canyoneers could speak to authorities to limit commercial and illegal guiding. The people that you call “parasites” can run bolting trips to tide up the ugly anchors and even pickup the trash that “your friends” left behind.
What is a “parasite”?
It sounds like to you a “parasite” is someone who uses pubblic available canyon beta. Well, then that will include me and everyone else on this forum, even yourself! Don’t you agree?
What is a “ruined” canyon?
Bolts, grooves and trash are a pitiful sight (especially knowing that were probably your close circle of friends that did it) but Imlay and Pine Creek and Seven Teacups have much of the same problem, and I would still not define them as “ruined”. Trash can be picked up, webbing replaced and bolts consolidated or repositioned.
So, why are they really “ruined”? Are they “ruined” because you are no longer the “Master and Commander” of the beta? Because you can no longer play “Judge Dredd” deciding who’s worthy and who is not?
I prefer to think you’re better than that!
You can choose to keep nagging about your failed secrecy and see Illusions and Imsomnia get worse and worse over time…
Or you can choose to enroll the whole canyoneering community to help protect and conserve these two wonderful canyons…
What is it going to be? It’s your call!
-Luca
PD: By the way, thank you for opening this canyons, they are real gems!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Ask me again why I like to keep things off the radar?
> Why do others in the canyoneering world keep things off the radar?
> Simple answer: Because of parasites.
> It seems that the good news about Illusions and Insomnia are out of the bag, and with it comes what I feared most.
> A little honest back history: I found these two canyons among others in the area and with Todd Martin, we and a small group spent countless hours reconning and finally making first descents on them.
We kept them quiet, but gave beta on other canyons in the hopes that these would remain safe and out of public view.
> Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
Well, time has passed, and the damage is done.
> What damage? How can you damage a canyon? If you’re asking yourself this then you really have no idea about the work it takes to find, and then maintain a canyon. How dare you say?! Well, just ask the park service about zion canyons….
To date: Illusions has 5 new bolts (none were needed), first and last with hangers missing, the other three are spinners and not even tight. Rope grooves, trash, and tour guides leading people who have no business or ethics coming down the canyon. Oh did I forget to mention the rare species of Bugbane that I mentioned early on in posts? Yes that to is gone, trampled by the kiddy canyoneers.
> Insomnia: trash, trampled, grooved, bolts, oh and a very expensive rescue because an ‘experienced’ canyoneer couldn’t control his descent on the big rap and almost died, good job buddy!
The new bolt station on the big rap (not needed at all), with hot pink webbing to be seen from afar, thanks to Tyler Williams who couldn’t be bothered to bring the required gear into the canyon when the register I left as a warning to those who found it: “315′ rap! bring enough rope!, keepers, etc..”(more detail was given) but thought he could do it with a 200′ rope. Thanks to him and many others who have trampled the crap out of these two gems.
> Most people on this board have good ethics, this is purely a rant, so don’t take it personally, but if you do you just might be a parasite.
> Thanks!
> -Joe
JosephD/Sara
Luca, Well, stealing Rich Rudrows beta on the Grand Canyon slots then descending them and calling them your own is a parasite. Eric is numero uno when it comes to this. Maybe that’s why the grand canyon park service is banning him…hmmmm…
Oh you call it a “clean up” of our “ugly” anchors. Hmmmm… seems your bolting job is about as good as your ethics, the bolts that were placed ALL spun,the nuts spin, they’re grooved now, good job buddy!
Actually my “friends” all have outstanding ethics unlike yourself. Grooves by us? Really? We descended Insomnia and Illusions ONCE per year unlike Eric taking 6-8 trips per year with multiple people. Nice ethics eh?
Lets do simple math: One descent/year+natural anchors= zero rope grooves. Many descents/year+new bolts= Many rope grooves. Does this simplify it for you?
My call? Why should I say as you wouldn’t respect my call either way, so why bother. You respect no ones “call”, thus you are continually banished from the old schooler canyoneers, and rightfully so. I think you need a hug, as you’ve never pioneered anything and feel inadequate, lonely and completely left out. It’s ok buddy, we all feel the same about you around here. Plus if you read my post, the last line said “this is a rant” no offense to anyone except those mentioned. -Joe
p.s. I love playing master and commander, it’s actually my halloween costume this year, how’d you know? Judge Dredd wasn’t particularly good, so I opted for the previous one. BUT I might just go as me, it’s scary enough….
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “lucaadv” wrote:
Joe,
You should know that: > a) Secrecy to protect a canyon does not work long term > c) Clear beta reduces both unnecessary anchors and rescues > b) The canyoneering community is not all evil and parasites
Groups like American Canyoneers could speak to authorities to limit commercial and illegal guiding. The people that you call “parasites” can run bolting trips to tide up the ugly anchors and even pickup the trash that “your friends” left behind.
What is a “parasite”? > It sounds like to you a “parasite” is someone who uses pubblic available canyon beta. Well, then that will include me and everyone else on this forum, even yourself! Don’t you agree?
What is a “ruined” canyon? > Bolts, grooves and trash are a pitiful sight (especially knowing that were probably your close circle of friends that did it) but Imlay and Pine Creek and Seven Teacups have much of the same problem, and I would still not define them as “ruined”. Trash can be picked up, webbing replaced and bolts consolidated or repositioned.
So, why are they really “ruined”? Are they “ruined” because you are no longer the “Master and Commander” of the beta? Because you can no longer play “Judge Dredd” deciding who’s worthy and who is not? > I prefer to think you’re better than that!
You can choose to keep nagging about your failed secrecy and see Illusions and Imsomnia get worse and worse over time… > Or you can choose to enroll the whole canyoneering community to help protect and conserve these two wonderful canyons…
What is it going to be? It’s your call!
-Luca
PD: By the way, thank you for opening this canyons, they are real gems!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Ask me again why I like to keep things off the radar?
Why do others in the canyoneering world keep things off the radar?
Simple answer: Because of parasites.
It seems that the good news about Illusions and Insomnia are out of the bag, and with it comes what I feared most.
A little honest back history: I found these two canyons among others in the area and with Todd Martin, we and a small group spent countless hours reconning and finally making first descents on them.
We kept them quiet, but gave beta on other canyons in the hopes that these would remain safe and out of public view.
Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
Well, time has passed, and the damage is done.
What damage? How can you damage a canyon? If you’re asking yourself this then you really have no idea about the work it takes to find, and then maintain a canyon. How dare you say?! Well, just ask the park service about zion canyons….
To date: Illusions has 5 new bolts (none were needed), first and last with hangers missing, the other three are spinners and not even tight. Rope grooves, trash, and tour guides leading people who have no business or ethics coming down the canyon. Oh did I forget to mention the rare species of Bugbane that I mentioned early on in posts? Yes that to is gone, trampled by the kiddy canyoneers.
Insomnia: trash, trampled, grooved, bolts, oh and a very expensive rescue because an ‘experienced’ canyoneer couldn’t control his descent on the big rap and almost died, good job buddy!
The new bolt station on the big rap (not needed at all), with hot pink webbing to be seen from afar, thanks to Tyler Williams who couldn’t be bothered to bring the required gear into the canyon when the register I left as a warning to those who found it: “315′ rap! bring enough rope!, keepers, etc..”(more detail was given) but thought he could do it with a 200′ rope. Thanks to him and many others who have trampled the crap out of these two gems.
Most people on this board have good ethics, this is purely a rant, so don’t take it personally, but if you do you just might be a parasite.
Thanks!
-Joe
>
JosephD/Sara
Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear. Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.
Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his own accord. Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice. Does this clarify it for you? I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good. -Joe
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “lucaadv” wrote:
Joe,
You should know that:
a) Secrecy to protect a canyon does not work long term
c) Clear beta reduces both unnecessary anchors and rescues
Says who?
It is clear that the show not tell system we use is not perfect, but it is pretty darn good.
Stats are unsurprisingly not available for my claim.
Tom >
TomJones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “lucaadv” wrote:
Joe,
You should know that: > a) Secrecy to protect a canyon does not work long term > c) Clear beta reduces both unnecessary anchors and rescues >
Says who?
It is clear that the show not tell system we use is not perfect, but it is pretty darn good.
Stats are unsurprisingly not available for my claim.
Tom
lucaadv
Joe,
You should know that: a) Secrecy to protect a canyon does not work long term c) Clear beta reduces both unnecessary anchors and rescues b) The canyoneering community is not all evil and parasites
Groups like American Canyoneers could speak to authorities to limit commercial and illegal guiding. The people that you call “parasites” can run bolting trips to tide up the ugly anchors and even pickup the trash that “your friends” left behind.
What is a “parasite”? It sounds like to you a “parasite” is someone who uses pubblic available canyon beta. Well, then that will include me and everyone else on this forum, even yourself! Don’t you agree?
What is a “ruined” canyon? Bolts, grooves and trash are a pitiful sight (especially knowing that were probably your close circle of friends that did it) but Imlay and Pine Creek and Seven Teacups have much of the same problem, and I would still not define them as “ruined”. Trash can be picked up, webbing replaced and bolts consolidated or repositioned.
So, why are they really “ruined”? Are they “ruined” because you are no longer the “Master and Commander” of the beta? Because you can no longer play “Judge Dredd” deciding who’s worthy and who is not? I prefer to think you’re better than that!
You can choose to keep nagging about your failed secrecy and see Illusions and Imsomnia get worse and worse over time… Or you can choose to enroll the whole canyoneering community to help protect and conserve these two wonderful canyons…
What is it going to be? It’s your call!
-Luca
PD: By the way, thank you for opening this canyons, they are real gems!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Ask me again why I like to keep things off the radar? > Why do others in the canyoneering world keep things off the radar? > Simple answer: Because of parasites. > It seems that the good news about Illusions and Insomnia are out of the bag, and with it comes what I feared most. > A little honest back history: I found these two canyons among others in the area and with Todd Martin, we and a small group spent countless hours reconning and finally making first descents on them.
We kept them quiet, but gave beta on other canyons in the hopes that these would remain safe and out of public view. > Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
Well, time has passed, and the damage is done. > What damage? How can you damage a canyon? If you’re asking yourself this then you really have no idea about the work it takes to find, and then maintain a canyon. How dare you say?! Well, just ask the park service about zion canyons….
To date: Illusions has 5 new bolts (none were needed), first and last with hangers missing, the other three are spinners and not even tight. Rope grooves, trash, and tour guides leading people who have no business or ethics coming down the canyon. Oh did I forget to mention the rare species of Bugbane that I mentioned early on in posts? Yes that to is gone, trampled by the kiddy canyoneers. > Insomnia: trash, trampled, grooved, bolts, oh and a very expensive rescue because an ‘experienced’ canyoneer couldn’t control his descent on the big rap and almost died, good job buddy!
The new bolt station on the big rap (not needed at all), with hot pink webbing to be seen from afar, thanks to Tyler Williams who couldn’t be bothered to bring the required gear into the canyon when the register I left as a warning to those who found it: “315′ rap! bring enough rope!, keepers, etc..”(more detail was given) but thought he could do it with a 200′ rope. Thanks to him and many others who have trampled the crap out of these two gems. > Most people on this board have good ethics, this is purely a rant, so don’t take it personally, but if you do you just might be a parasite. > Thanks! > -Joe >
vapormanb
Joe,
Thanks again for the canyon discovery and pioneering the route down both those canyons!!! Those are some of my two favorite canyons in the state and ever since I saw the pics I was researching like mad to figure out where they were… I’ve actually ‘discovered’ yet another sweet canyon up there in-between Barney & Insomnia with 10 rappels with a few up to 160ft that I’m calling Immaculate Canyon. You should check it out when you have time. =)
Yea, when a canyon gets out you can’t control who also figures out and descends the canyon… I too was appalled at all the unnecessary new bolts and vented my frustrations with other AZ canyoneers. I’m not skilled in bolt removal and bolt hole filling, but that canyon would be a good candidate for it. I’ve also heard the rumors that guides were going thru there and was surprised to hear they’d be so reckless. Personally, I always haul out trash I see in those canyons, clean up the anchors, and tighten the bolts when needed but have no way to control what others do. Is it on Leifer’s & my head for spreading beta and letting others ‘destroy’ those canyons? Debatable… Best we can do is be good canyon stewards and try to spread good canyon ethics around as well. For the past three summers (two for Insomnia since I didn’t own a big rope that first summer), I’ve descended those canyons at least twice a season mainly to enjoy them but also to make sure they aren’t being trashed and try to keep them in the original state that I found them in. Which was easy enough to do until the new bolts got installed… =( Bolt removal party?
Brian ‘Vaporman’ Bassett
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Ask me again why I like to keep things off the radar? > Why do others in the canyoneering world keep things off the radar? > Simple answer: Because of parasites. > It seems that the good news about Illusions and Insomnia are out of the bag, and with it comes what I feared most. > A little honest back history: I found these two canyons among others in the area and with Todd Martin, we and a small group spent countless hours reconning and finally making first descents on them.
We kept them quiet, but gave beta on other canyons in the hopes that these would remain safe and out of public view. > Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
Well, time has passed, and the damage is done. > What damage? How can you damage a canyon? If you’re asking yourself this then you really have no idea about the work it takes to find, and then maintain a canyon. How dare you say?! Well, just ask the park service about zion canyons….
To date: Illusions has 5 new bolts (none were needed), first and last with hangers missing, the other three are spinners and not even tight. Rope grooves, trash, and tour guides leading people who have no business or ethics coming down the canyon. Oh did I forget to mention the rare species of Bugbane that I mentioned early on in posts? Yes that to is gone, trampled by the kiddy canyoneers. > Insomnia: trash, trampled, grooved, bolts, oh and a very expensive rescue because an ‘experienced’ canyoneer couldn’t control his descent on the big rap and almost died, good job buddy!
The new bolt station on the big rap (not needed at all), with hot pink webbing to be seen from afar, thanks to Tyler Williams who couldn’t be bothered to bring the required gear into the canyon when the register I left as a warning to those who found it: “315′ rap! bring enough rope!, keepers, etc..”(more detail was given) but thought he could do it with a 200′ rope. Thanks to him and many others who have trampled the crap out of these two gems. > Most people on this board have good ethics, this is purely a rant, so don’t take it personally, but if you do you just might be a parasite. > Thanks! > -Joe >
aj.outdoors
I believe this is related to the secret or no secret discussion in the fact that, when a canyon becomes part of the middle ground (i.e. secret, but some folks are discussing how cool it is or showing pictures of how beautiful it is while not giving any info; it will naturally increase the desire to see it.) At least, it does for me.
Another canyon that comes to mind like this is Chambers. It was middle ground “secret”, with several people posting alluring trip reports, some with photos. As to be expected, this just heightens it on peoples’ radars. Again,at least it does for me.
I thought I knew the general area it was in, and so I queried the folks I knew had descended it. One confirmed I was thinking of the right area, but none of the three were willing to give specifics; but all three asked to keep things under the radar (this was a special case, as all knew it was going to be published in Kelsey’s second edition – so all wanted to keep it secret until then.)
Anyway, without beta, but with a general area and a few pictures, I went out and found it. After descending it, I still kept it “secret” for the three groups that I knew had descended it, at their request, and didn’t post any info on my descent until after it came out in Kelsey’s second edition canyoneering guide. As with all canyons, we treated them with respect, and chambers is an easy one in that regard, as it doesn’t require any raps.
However, my point is if you are going to play in the middle ground, either telling how cool it is, or showing beautiful photos; know that you are creating a higher allure and people will specifically look for it.
I personally feel that you should keep it completely secret, or post info out giving your desires for descending the canyon (i.e. natural anchors, anchor locations, etc.) The second option will have an impact; but it will also get some level of self policing, as future groups can reset a canyon back to original descent desires (I’m thinking along the lines of Tom Jones-ish folks removing unnecessary bolts, etc.) Hopefully, with more beta, people will set anchors correctly, minimizing the self policing necessary.
I only bring this up, as Insomnia and Illusions have been high on my hit list after hearing about them. I’ve made one descent attempt, but was thwarted by mostly weather – with snow and very cold temperatures in the October timeframe I had available. It’s hard for me to travel that way from CO, but when I line another trip up, they are definitely on my list.
I’m very sorry to hear about the negative impacts. If I make it through, I’ll bring extra space in my pack and some trash bags and will do my best to help with cleanup; and will replace any remaining neon webbing. However, your post isn’t very constructive in my opinion (sounds like you knew it was just a rant though.) We can’t change the situation that they are in now (sort of in the open), so what can we do to better the situation?
Just giving my perspective, for whatever it’s worth…
Take care, A.J.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Ask me again why I like to keep things off the radar? > Why do others in the canyoneering world keep things off the radar? > Simple answer: Because of parasites. > It seems that the good news about Illusions and Insomnia are out of the bag, and with it comes what I feared most. > A little honest back history: I found these two canyons among others in the area and with Todd Martin, we and a small group spent countless hours reconning and finally making first descents on them.
We kept them quiet, but gave beta on other canyons in the hopes that these would remain safe and out of public view. > Through a glitch, Eric liefer and his canyon croanies self titled ‘new wave canyoneers’ found out and he quickly went about posting the beta all over the internet, even though we politely asked them not to.
Well, time has passed, and the damage is done. > What damage? How can you damage a canyon? If you’re asking yourself this then you really have no idea about the work it takes to find, and then maintain a canyon. How dare you say?! Well, just ask the park service about zion canyons….
To date: Illusions has 5 new bolts (none were needed), first and last with hangers missing, the other three are spinners and not even tight. Rope grooves, trash, and tour guides leading people who have no business or ethics coming down the canyon. Oh did I forget to mention the rare species of Bugbane that I mentioned early on in posts? Yes that to is gone, trampled by the kiddy canyoneers. > Insomnia: trash, trampled, grooved, bolts, oh and a very expensive rescue because an ‘experienced’ canyoneer couldn’t control his descent on the big rap and almost died, good job buddy!
The new bolt station on the big rap (not needed at all), with hot pink webbing to be seen from afar, thanks to Tyler Williams who couldn’t be bothered to bring the required gear into the canyon when the register I left as a warning to those who found it: “315′ rap! bring enough rope!, keepers, etc..”(more detail was given) but thought he could do it with a 200′ rope. Thanks to him and many others who have trampled the crap out of these two gems. > Most people on this board have good ethics, this is purely a rant, so don’t take it personally, but if you do you just might be a parasite. > Thanks! > -Joe >