This actually brings up an interesting point, that the reason this happened, was because of an auto-block? Are most canyoneering courses really pushing the idea of rappelling with one, on any and every drop? I’m of the opinion that there are a few good good, but mostly bad places for them. One thing for sure, if someone is already at the bottom, just use a fireman’s.
I recently was doing a first descent of a canyon in the middle of nowhere Nevada, when we were surprised by a 350 foot free hanging drop drop which hadn’t shown up in any of my research. We had 2 200 foot ropes and some webbing. So we sacrificed my rope, hung it single strand off the end with a hanging anchor tied to it for the other 200 footer.
I didn’t want my friend to need to pass a knot, so he hooked in to the bottom rope, and I lowered him off the drop with the sacrificed end. Everything would have been absolutely fine, except he asked if he should clip a sling into the top rope for safety while I lowered him, and I said “sure, why not?” In retrospect, there are a lot of reasons why not. While he had my ascenders on him, and knew how to tie a prussik and the basic idea of how he could get the safety off if it ended up getting tight, this sort of thing is hard to do when you’re hanging from one 200 foot rope 150 feet in the air with nothing solid to grab anywhere around. So in the process of cussing and getting the safety off, his hand got twisted in the rope above his ATC, he weighted it, couldn’t get his hand out, and ended up descending the rest of the 150 foot drop with his hand twisted in the rope.
He ended up having to go to the hospital to get surgery to have the swelling taken down in his hand, as it was ‘compartmentalized’, meaning it was letting blood in and not out.
And everything would have been fine, if it weren’t for what we did in the name of safety.
I guess the lesson is, before you set up some kind of safety, really think about whether or not it’s making you safer, or adding unnecessary complications.
-Rick
aj.outdoors
Sorry, I have a climbing background and thus, I almost always call them belay devices, but Tom is correct. I was referring to a rappel device (which for me, is my ATC, which is the same thing as my climbing belay device.) Sorry for any confusion…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
To clarify (assuming he was using the standard ZAC setup):
1. He was likely using a VT prusik, which is a product sold by Bluewater. He was likely using it as an autobloc, off the leg loop, using an autobloc knot.
2. He was not belaying; he was not using a belay device. He was using a rappel device, most likely a Pirana.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
If you have read the articles, one of the causes of the death in Subway (the original topic this thread started) was because a VT got stuck in the belay device.
With any tools, you need to know how to use them; otherwise, you are only carrying extra weight, or worse, possibly causing worse issues than the ones they are intended to fix… (Like the Subway incident, and what was a possible outcome at Cascade in Ouray…)
>
TomJones
To clarify (assuming he was using the standard ZAC setup):
1. He was likely using a VT prusik, which is a product sold by Bluewater. He was likely using it as an autobloc, off the leg loop, using an autobloc knot.
2. He was not belaying; he was not using a belay device. He was using a rappel device, most likely a Pirana.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “aj.outdoors” wrote:
If you have read the articles, one of the causes of the death in Subway (the original topic this thread started) was because a VT got stuck in the belay device.
With any tools, you need to know how to use them; otherwise, you are only carrying extra weight, or worse, possibly causing worse issues than the ones they are intended to fix… (Like the Subway incident, and what was a possible outcome at Cascade in Ouray…) >
aj.outdoors
If you have read the articles, one of the causes of the death in Subway (the original topic this thread started) was because a VT got stuck in the belay device.
With any tools, you need to know how to use them; otherwise, you are only carrying extra weight, or worse, possibly causing worse issues than the ones they are intended to fix… (Like the Subway incident, and what was a possible outcome at Cascade in Ouray…)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Valdotain.
Can be used when the rope is wet. It is not generally considered a valid option in dry conditions.
And, you really, really want to have it well practiced, well-understood before stepping over the edge!
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickpratt905” wrote:
What about the valdotan (sp?) a length of rope with some strands removed that can be rapped around the rope prussic like and descended? I was taught this trick some time ago and tested it out a few years ago in a practice session. Seemed reasonable enough though I am myself a 7 year beginner and have much to learn. I tend to travel with one but it occurs to me that it would be very easy to make in the field though having tested the one you use probably makes sense.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Maybe this incident fits into the “even people who know what they are doing can get themselves in trouble” category, rather than that other.
Yeah, not much to do from above. You did a lower-and-rappel, right? Which seems to be the simplest/easiest way to deal with that. Your friend was not comfortable with his rappel device tied off? This seems to be the point of departure from strict sanity.
Yes, down-jugging is pretty much the only way to get down to him. Very slow, very dangerous.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
To clarify Tom, my friend definitely knew how to use the ascenders, how to tie a prussik, and even had some experience passing a knot. He’s not a beginner, though he hadn’t gone canyoneering in several months.
Though I suppose in a way, we were both beginners in regards to descending a 350 foot drop with 2, 200 foot ropes. My friend got nervous, and the ‘safety’ was a bad idea on both of our parts.
But, perhaps there was something I could have done? If your partner is stuck on rope below you, and you have no more rope up at the top to rappel down to them with, is there any reasonably safe way to get to them to offer help? I briefly considered that it may have been possible to prussik down to him, but that sounded like a pretty terrible idea, and a good way to potentially die.
I came up with the idea of slipping a rapid onto the rope with ~ 40 feet of webbing with foot loops tied every 2-3 feet, and sending that down the rope in hopes that he would be able to access one of the foot loops. This seemed only semi-likely to work though, and was kind of a last effort. I saw know good way of actually getting to him.
TomJones
Valdotain.
Can be used when the rope is wet. It is not generally considered a valid option in dry conditions.
And, you really, really want to have it well practiced, well-understood before stepping over the edge!
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickpratt905” wrote:
What about the valdotan (sp?) a length of rope with some strands removed that can be rapped around the rope prussic like and descended? I was taught this trick some time ago and tested it out a few years ago in a practice session. Seemed reasonable enough though I am myself a 7 year beginner and have much to learn. I tend to travel with one but it occurs to me that it would be very easy to make in the field though having tested the one you use probably makes sense.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Maybe this incident fits into the “even people who know what they are doing can get themselves in trouble” category, rather than that other.
Yeah, not much to do from above. You did a lower-and-rappel, right? Which seems to be the simplest/easiest way to deal with that. Your friend was not comfortable with his rappel device tied off? This seems to be the point of departure from strict sanity.
Yes, down-jugging is pretty much the only way to get down to him. Very slow, very dangerous.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
To clarify Tom, my friend definitely knew how to use the ascenders, how to tie a prussik, and even had some experience passing a knot. He’s not a beginner, though he hadn’t gone canyoneering in several months.
Though I suppose in a way, we were both beginners in regards to descending a 350 foot drop with 2, 200 foot ropes. My friend got nervous, and the ‘safety’ was a bad idea on both of our parts.
> But, perhaps there was something I could have done? If your partner is stuck on rope below you, and you have no more rope up at the top to rappel down to them with, is there any reasonably safe way to get to them to offer help? I briefly considered that it may have been possible to prussik down to him, but that sounded like a pretty terrible idea, and a good way to potentially die.
I came up with the idea of slipping a rapid onto the rope with ~ 40 feet of webbing with foot loops tied every 2-3 feet, and sending that down the rope in hopes that he would be able to access one of the foot loops. This seemed only semi-likely to work though, and was kind of a last effort. I saw know good way of actually getting to him.
rickpratt905
What about the valdotan (sp?) a length of rope with some strands removed that can be rapped around the rope prussic like and descended? I was taught this trick some time ago and tested it out a few years ago in a practice session. Seemed reasonable enough though I am myself a 7 year beginner and have much to learn. I tend to travel with one but it occurs to me that it would be very easy to make in the field though having tested the one you use probably makes sense.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Maybe this incident fits into the “even people who know what they are doing can get themselves in trouble” category, rather than that other.
Yeah, not much to do from above. You did a lower-and-rappel, right? Which seems to be the simplest/easiest way to deal with that. Your friend was not comfortable with his rappel device tied off? This seems to be the point of departure from strict sanity.
Yes, down-jugging is pretty much the only way to get down to him. Very slow, very dangerous.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
To clarify Tom, my friend definitely knew how to use the ascenders, how to tie a prussik, and even had some experience passing a knot. He’s not a beginner, though he hadn’t gone canyoneering in several months.
Though I suppose in a way, we were both beginners in regards to descending a 350 foot drop with 2, 200 foot ropes. My friend got nervous, and the ‘safety’ was a bad idea on both of our parts.
But, perhaps there was something I could have done? If your partner is stuck on rope below you, and you have no more rope up at the top to rappel down to them with, is there any reasonably safe way to get to them to offer help? I briefly considered that it may have been possible to prussik down to him, but that sounded like a pretty terrible idea, and a good way to potentially die.
I came up with the idea of slipping a rapid onto the rope with ~ 40 feet of webbing with foot loops tied every 2-3 feet, and sending that down the rope in hopes that he would be able to access one of the foot loops. This seemed only semi-likely to work though, and was kind of a last effort. I saw know good way of actually getting to him.
>
TomJones
Thanks for the clarification. Maybe this incident fits into the “even people who know what they are doing can get themselves in trouble” category, rather than that other.
Yeah, not much to do from above. You did a lower-and-rappel, right? Which seems to be the simplest/easiest way to deal with that. Your friend was not comfortable with his rappel device tied off? This seems to be the point of departure from strict sanity.
Yes, down-jugging is pretty much the only way to get down to him. Very slow, very dangerous.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
To clarify Tom, my friend definitely knew how to use the ascenders, how to tie a prussik, and even had some experience passing a knot. He’s not a beginner, though he hadn’t gone canyoneering in several months.
Though I suppose in a way, we were both beginners in regards to descending a 350 foot drop with 2, 200 foot ropes. My friend got nervous, and the ‘safety’ was a bad idea on both of our parts.
> But, perhaps there was something I could have done? If your partner is stuck on rope below you, and you have no more rope up at the top to rappel down to them with, is there any reasonably safe way to get to them to offer help? I briefly considered that it may have been possible to prussik down to him, but that sounded like a pretty terrible idea, and a good way to potentially die.
I came up with the idea of slipping a rapid onto the rope with ~ 40 feet of webbing with foot loops tied every 2-3 feet, and sending that down the rope in hopes that he would be able to access one of the foot loops. This seemed only semi-likely to work though, and was kind of a last effort. I saw know good way of actually getting to him. >
rickinlo
To clarify Tom, my friend definitely knew how to use the ascenders, how to tie a prussik, and even had some experience passing a knot. He’s not a beginner, though he hadn’t gone canyoneering in several months.
Though I suppose in a way, we were both beginners in regards to descending a 350 foot drop with 2, 200 foot ropes. My friend got nervous, and the ‘safety’ was a bad idea on both of our parts.
But, perhaps there was something I could have done? If your partner is stuck on rope below you, and you have no more rope up at the top to rappel down to them with, is there any reasonably safe way to get to them to offer help? I briefly considered that it may have been possible to prussik down to him, but that sounded like a pretty terrible idea, and a good way to potentially die.
I came up with the idea of slipping a rapid onto the rope with ~ 40 feet of webbing with foot loops tied every 2-3 feet, and sending that down the rope in hopes that he would be able to access one of the foot loops. This seemed only semi-likely to work though, and was kind of a last effort. I saw know good way of actually getting to him.
ratagonia
In Rick’s incident and the two deaths (Subway and Australia), what I see is that being a beginner doing stuff without an experienced partner is dangerous. Same for my recent hour of difficulty in Cascade Creek.
You might say Rick’s incident does not fit this, as his friend was “with him”, but clearly his friend tried something non-standard that did not work and created significant problems. Having Rick’s ascenders with him without knowing how to use them, really, is not helpful. I conclude that either the problem was at the limits of Rick’s experience; or the personality interaction was not such that his friend would easily take Rick’s recommendation, but insisted on adding in a “safety feature”.
Being a beginner is dangerous. Many of us are lucky we survived our beginner stage; I know I am. Being a beginner can be made significantly less dangerous by being with experienced canyoneers who can supervise, and when you are about to do something stupid, to say “don’t do that”.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Joe Braun” wrote:
Took ZAC’s 3-day a while back and we were outfitted with VT prussiks on the leg loop. (As background, I’ve been a novice canyoneer for about a decade now.) While the pirana was extended with a short runner to keep it far away from the leg loop, in an awkward start and fall backwards, I could see the two making contact. The VT was offered as an option in the bag of possibilities, but I remember feeling awkward about it and consciously choosing to not use it. Perhaps best to ease nerves and arm muscles on long straightforward drops, it was a downright distraction on shorter drops with awkward starts (IMO). Agree with the K.I.S.S. principal; a simple fireman’s would have been better.
Tragic event that I can’t stop thinking about. I feel for his wife and my apologies if discussing the details seems insensitive to anybody.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
This actually brings up an interesting point, that the reason this happened, was because of an auto-block? Are most canyoneering courses really pushing the idea of rappelling with one, on any and every drop? I’m of the opinion that there are a few good good, but mostly bad places for them. One thing for sure, if someone is already at the bottom, just use a fireman’s.
I recently was doing a first descent of a canyon in the middle of nowhere Nevada, when we were surprised by a 350 foot free hanging drop drop which hadn’t shown up in any of my research. We had 2 200 foot ropes and some webbing. So we sacrificed my rope, hung it single strand off the end with a hanging anchor tied to it for the other 200 footer.
I didn’t want my friend to need to pass a knot, so he hooked in to the bottom rope, and I lowered him off the drop with the sacrificed end. Everything would have been absolutely fine, except he asked if he should clip a sling into the top rope for safety while I lowered him, and I said “sure, why not?” In retrospect, there are a lot of reasons why not. While he had my ascenders on him, and knew how to tie a prussik and the basic idea of how he could get the safety off if it ended up getting tight, this sort of thing is hard to do when you’re hanging from one 200 foot rope 150 feet in the air with nothing solid to grab anywhere around. So in the process of cussing and getting the safety off, his hand got twisted in the rope above his ATC, he weighted it, couldn’t get his hand out, and ended up descending the rest of the 150 foot drop with his hand twisted in the rope.
He ended up having to go to the hospital to get surgery to have the swelling taken down in his hand, as it was ‘compartmentalized’, meaning it was letting blood in and not out.
And everything would have been fine, if it weren’t for what we did in the name of safety.
I guess the lesson is, before you set up some kind of safety, really think about whether or not it’s making you safer, or adding unnecessary complications.
-Rick
>
Joe Braun
Took ZAC’s 3-day a while back and we were outfitted with VT prussiks on the leg loop. (As background, I’ve been a novice canyoneer for about a decade now.) While the pirana was extended with a short runner to keep it far away from the leg loop, in an awkward start and fall backwards, I could see the two making contact. The VT was offered as an option in the bag of possibilities, but I remember feeling awkward about it and consciously choosing to not use it. Perhaps best to ease nerves and arm muscles on long straightforward drops, it was a downright distraction on shorter drops with awkward starts (IMO). Agree with the K.I.S.S. principal; a simple fireman’s would have been better.
Tragic event that I can’t stop thinking about. I feel for his wife and my apologies if discussing the details seems insensitive to anybody.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rickinlo” wrote:
This actually brings up an interesting point, that the reason this happened, was because of an auto-block? Are most canyoneering courses really pushing the idea of rappelling with one, on any and every drop? I’m of the opinion that there are a few good good, but mostly bad places for them. One thing for sure, if someone is already at the bottom, just use a fireman’s.
> I recently was doing a first descent of a canyon in the middle of nowhere Nevada, when we were surprised by a 350 foot free hanging drop drop which hadn’t shown up in any of my research. We had 2 200 foot ropes and some webbing. So we sacrificed my rope, hung it single strand off the end with a hanging anchor tied to it for the other 200 footer.
I didn’t want my friend to need to pass a knot, so he hooked in to the bottom rope, and I lowered him off the drop with the sacrificed end. Everything would have been absolutely fine, except he asked if he should clip a sling into the top rope for safety while I lowered him, and I said “sure, why not?” In retrospect, there are a lot of reasons why not. While he had my ascenders on him, and knew how to tie a prussik and the basic idea of how he could get the safety off if it ended up getting tight, this sort of thing is hard to do when you’re hanging from one 200 foot rope 150 feet in the air with nothing solid to grab anywhere around. So in the process of cussing and getting the safety off, his hand got twisted in the rope above his ATC, he weighted it, couldn’t get his hand out, and ended up descending the rest of the 150 foot drop with his hand twisted in the rope.
He ended up having to go to the hospital to get surgery to have the swelling taken down in his hand, as it was ‘compartmentalized’, meaning it was letting blood in and not out.
And everything would have been fine, if it weren’t for what we did in the name of safety.
I guess the lesson is, before you set up some kind of safety, really think about whether or not it’s making you safer, or adding unnecessary complications.
-Rick >
jabridaka@comcast.net
We had a group of 5 in front of us in Pine Creek last week. According to their assessment 2 experienced and 3 beginners. All of them used autoblocks above their rap devises on double strand rope. We had a group of 8 (4 experienced and 4 beginners). I was just waiting for the call that they were stuck due to an over extended locked off out of reach autoblock. Fortunately that did not happen but we were constantly catching up to them.
—– Original Message —– From: “rickinlo” rickinlo@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 2:03:57 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] In the name of safety… (Re: NPS Report on Death in Subway)
This actually brings up an interesting point, that the reason this happened, was because of an auto-block? Are most canyoneering courses really pushing the idea of rappelling with one, on any and every drop? I’m of the opinion that there are a few good good, but mostly bad places for them. One thing for sure, if someone is already at the bottom, just use a fireman’s.
I recently was doing a first descent of a canyon in the middle of nowhere Nevada, when we were surprised by a 350 foot free hanging drop drop which hadn’t shown up in any of my research. We had 2 200 foot ropes and some webbing. So we sacrificed my rope, hung it single strand off the end with a hanging anchor tied to it for the other 200 footer.
I didn’t want my friend to need to pass a knot, so he hooked in to the bottom rope, and I lowered him off the drop with the sacrificed end. Everything would have been absolutely fine, except he asked if he should clip a sling into the top rope for safety while I lowered him, and I said “sure, why not?” In retrospect, there are a lot of reasons why not. While he had my ascenders on him, and knew how to tie a prussik and the basic idea of how he could get the safety off if it ended up getting tight, this sort of thing is hard to do when you’re hanging from one 200 foot rope 150 feet in the air with nothing solid to grab anywhere around. So in the process of cussing and getting the safety off, his hand got twisted in the rope above his ATC, he weighted it, couldn’t get his hand out, and ended up descending the rest of the 150 foot drop with his hand twisted in the rope.
He ended up having to go to the hospital to get surgery to have the swelling taken down in his hand, as it was ‘compartmentalized’, meaning it was letting blood in and not out.
And everything would have been fine, if it weren’t for what we did in the name of safety.
I guess the lesson is, before you set up some kind of safety, really think about whether or not it’s making you safer, or adding unnecessary complications.
-Rick