Hi,
I have been using my jumars for years while climbing. But now I find them bulky and not convenient (though I still drag them along JIC). O.K. so Tiblocs are the way to go but I am curious — how do they perform on a free hanging rope? has anyone used them for more than ascending 10 or 20 feet? How was the experience? Adrian
Koen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bruce silliman” wrote:
If it is safe to provide the details,please enlighten us on how to use the > Pirahana as an ascender. Of course I’m going to practice before attempting > in a canyon. thanks. >
Same as you do with a figure of 8 !
That was probably not the answer you were looking for ? So here comes, described for a right-handed person:
– clip your fig 8 into the big hole – hold it sideways, to the right – put in a loop of rope from behind – give it a counterclockwise twist – slip the twisted loop over the small hole – voila
Install a hand-held ascender, clip a safety tether in the upper ascender together with a foot pedal and you’re ready to go.
While standing up in the pedal reel in rope with a dumbell-lifting movement. At the top of the “stroke” bring down your hand again to lock/pinch the rope.
To switch from ascending to descending, two options: – bring the rope to the other side and jank it past the “pinch” (doesn’t work for heavy guys). – or unclip the pedal from your upper ascender, put it in the small hole of the fig. 8 and put a bit of weight on it. The 8 will twist, liberating the pinch and you can rappel down. Always works. If you want to stop, just release weight from the pedal. Very sweet.
A few considerations: – it’s advisable to clip in a carabiner or better yet, a second safety tether in the small hole of the 8. To prevent the rappel rope jumping over the small hole. – never, ever forget to clip yourself into the top ascender with a safety tether (for above reason and if it would fail to pinch). – perfect setup in combination with a top-mounted prusik or even better a valdotain. Both of these can work as a back-up when going down again, you don’t have to take them off competely. Faster, and that’s what counts. – it’s important to start reeling in rope the moment you stand up. I’ve seen countless people standing up in their stirrup completely and then start to try to wrestle the loose rope through a flopping fig 8. Doesn’t work ! Have your brake hand ready in the weight-lifting position before you stand up and reel in rope keeping everything under tension. Works very smoothly.
And don’t forget to bring your hand down when the “stroke” is finished to lock it off.
If I remember well it’s the same for a Pirana (been ages that I tried it), Tom ? The only thing I do remember that it didn’t work nearly as smoothly with a Pirana vs an 8. And leave the “fixed” carabiner in place when installing it on your belt, or you’ll have difficulty clipping your pedal in for descending . Neither does it work (for me) with those square 8’s from Petzl. The rope isn’t pinched enough for my weight.
Koen
Penny Martens
Koen, Thanks for sharing. There is a lot to be learned from other’s experiences. It is one of the things I like to read in this space. The whole jumar/tib topic has been very worthwhile. I think 20 gal/sec sounds like a lot, but then I think any flow that is more than wht is in the water saver shower is a lot. Thanks, Penny
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Penny Martens” dit:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> All the rest are potential deathtraps as a chest ascender,
> including the prusiks (try cutting the prusik and not the taut
> rope with frozen fingers when you’re near drowning ).
Sounds like a story here?
Pen
Not much of a story… one from back in the days when I was young, > strong and thought I was on top of the world .
During a guiding course…
I disagree. Quite a fine story, really. I hope the students learned their lesson that day.
Tom
Koen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Penny Martens” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
All the rest are potential deathtraps as a chest ascender, including
the prusiks (try cutting the prusik and not the taut rope with frozen
fingers when you’re near drowning ).
Sounds like a story here? > Pen >
Not much of a story… one from back in the days when I was young, strong and thought I was on top of the world .
During a guiding course I was teaching a rope got stuck. Both ends were still down so it was easy to jug up one strand with the other end tied down. The rappel was a two-stage affair: first a 12 ft overhang, a little platform and then a 20 ft overhang. Estimated waterflow around 20 gallons a second, not much.
Instead of sending one of the students up to get the rope unstuck I decided to do it myself… I covered the first 19 ft in a few seconds, using a croll and a jumar (that was in the days before someone had figured out how to go up on a fig. 8). The overhang/platform being a thin ledge with no footholds below, I had some trouble getting over it. The rope was pinned against the ledge, I couldn’t shove the jumar further up and I couldn’t easily push the rope away from that ledge, I had nothing to push against.
After a few seconds I realised I was in deep, deep trouble because I received all 20 gallons straight into my face.
Very surprising how quickly you can drown when fighting a rope…
Making the decision to reverse and installing a descender below my croll was done in seconds, but unhooking the croll didn’t go smoothly: blinded, fighting for airbubbles and pushing up against the concentrated flow, freezing fingers…
After a minute or so I was ready to cut my losses and my rope. I would have done that a lot sooner if there weren’t rocks 20 ft below… but I was ready to take that fall and certain injury or worse instead of certain and slow death by drowning. But with my very last all-for-nothing effort I got my croll off rope and I was able to descend, half drowned and utterly exhausted. I don’t remember if I left my jumar dangling or if I took it down with me.
It served me as a very good and humbling lesson: flowing water, no matter how much or little, can turn ugly in a second if you’re not paying attention. And mechanical ascenders suck for going up against a flow !!!!
In hindsight I was lucky, I knew about several different mortal accidents that way (cavers surprised in a flood trying to exit against a waterfall). But I thought it needed to be a high volume flow to kill somebody that way. NOT !
Koen
bruce silliman
If it is safe to provide the details,please enlighten us on how to use the Pirahana as an ascender. Of course I’m going to practice before attempting in a canyon. thanks.
bruce from bryce
>From: “Tom Jones” ratagonia@gmail.com
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Jumars v. Tibloc >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:24:21 -0000
Can we bring this back to the original context?
He did ask what to carry for emergency (Just In Case) or JIC. And I >am hoping JIC means once or twice a year is all they get used.
Tibloc rules. Yup, gotta use it with a round-stock biner like the >Petzl Attache. Yup, gotta be somewhat careful with it, etc.
My experience with other devices:
WC Ropeman: I carried these for a while, but I found they got ‘used’ >by the fine sand found in the desert, and then the spring failed to >have enough force for them to work. The little wires tend to wear >and have ‘stingers’ hanging off them.
Mini-Traxion: when actually planning on jugging, I bring one or two >of these. They work pretty well, but are almost as heavy and bulky >as handled ascenders.
Pirana turned around and used as an ascender: only works when the >rope is well-broken in. Last time I tried it (Almost), the rope was >too stiff, and it did not want to run smoothly.
For the rope rescue stuff taught in Rich’s ACA Canyon Rescue course, >the Tibloc proves the most useful and versatile of pieces. That it >can easily be used as both a rope grab and (high friction) pulley is >what works so well. Overall, one of the best tools to have in an >emergency, AND, very light and low bulk to carry.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Neil” wrote:
The tibloc is a good little device. They are certainly not
a ‘silver bullet’ though. If not used correctly or paid close
attention to they will trash your rope in a hurry. If using >tiblocs
be aware they require technique to ensure they do not slip or you
will be buying a new rope. They are certainly not idiot proof and
perhaps that makes them inferior to some similar devices.
I personally like them but they are not without their drawbacks. >YMMV
Neil
PS – If you use tiblocs beware that they are sensitive to the
thickness of carabiner stock you are using in relationship to the
diameter of your rope. (i.e. – Use thicker carabiners and be
careful with skinny ropes.)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
, sooner or
> later they’ll rip your rope because they failed to “bite”.
> As a hand-held ascender they’re ok, but for me very
> uncomfortable: I’ve got big hands and find it difficult/painful
> to get a good grip on the carabiner that clips the tibloc.
> Koen
_______________ Live Search Maps – find all the local information you need, right when you need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01
Penny Martens
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > All the rest are potential deathtraps as a chest ascender, including > the prusiks (try cutting the prusik and not the taut rope with frozen > fingers when you’re near drowning ).
Sounds like a story here? Pen
steve mestdagh
Don’t forget the prussiks. Lightweight and adaptable to many situations. and Remember none of the discussed options are worth sh#t in an emergency unless you practice at least a little …
-steve http://smestdagh.blogspot.com/
—– Original Message —- From: adrians33 adrians33@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:43:04 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Jumars v. Tibloc
The responses are really interesting. I guess it breaks down as
follows:
1. Tiblocs. know how to use them and they work as JIC –probably good
to have in your kit as backup if you dont want to bother with
prussiks. Good for pothole escapes as long as you know how to use them
and are comfortable with them. Good for more based on personal
preference.
2. More serious ascending: there is a mix of solutions/tools
inc;luding as Koen said pulling up with an “8” and using a valdotain to
work your way up. The range of possibilities is impressive.
Thanks for the feedback.
__________________________________ We won’t tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): TV’s Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
adrians33
The responses are really interesting. I guess it breaks down as follows:
1. Tiblocs. know how to use them and they work as JIC –probably good to have in your kit as backup if you dont want to bother with prussiks. Good for pothole escapes as long as you know how to use them and are comfortable with them. Good for more based on personal preference.
2. More serious ascending: there is a mix of solutions/tools inc;luding as Koen said pulling up with an “8” and using a valdotain to work your way up. The range of possibilities is impressive.
Thanks for the feedback.
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > For emergency and light weight: prusiks as well and a valdotain, they > work everywhere, on all diameters and on single or double rope. And if > you’re stuck on them you can just cut them away, or let them slip (valdo).
I carry a BW Titan sling, sewn into a “rabbit runner” for use as a poor man’s Valdotain, in addition to some 6mm cord configured similarly. Very fast, very functional.
I like the option of being able to descend quickly if need be. A valdotain does that nicely. As well as load transfers for pick offs, passing knots and escape the belay type scenarios.
-Brian in SLC
Koen
Can we bring this back to the original context?
> He did ask what to carry for emergency (Just In Case) or JIC. >
For emergency and light weight: prusiks as well and a valdotain, they work everywhere, on all diameters and on single or double rope. And if you’re stuck on them you can just cut them away, or let them slip (valdo).
For everyday use in my backpack, for lots of regular ropework in very wet canyons and oh so comfortable in a rare emergency: a full sized jumar, a minitraxion and a couple of prussiks “just in case” .
ALWAYS on my belt, both for ascending and descending: a figure of eight. Much easier to ascend a rope with then a Pirana. For short (up to 45 ft or so) upward stretches I don’t bother with the jumar/minitraxion. I use my 8 on my harness and a valdotain in my hand.
Going up against a waterfall: always the fig of 8 on the harness!!! Or a Pirana if that works for you. A Gigi (not a Grigri) is also a contender here. All the rest are potential deathtraps as a chest ascender, including the prusiks (try cutting the prusik and not the taut rope with frozen fingers when you’re near drowning ). The handheld ascender is not that critical. A valdo is the ticket, but you can leave behind any mechanical one if the need is high and oxygen low.
Koen
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
Can we bring this back to the original context?
Sure.
> He did ask what to carry for emergency (Just In Case) or JIC.
Ok, Prusiks then. They (and the ascending knots, autoblock, french Prusik, etc) work great on both double and single ropes and if they slip, they won’t wreck your rope. They also don’t care what size or type of carabiner you use them with.
> Tibloc rules. Yup, gotta use it with a round-stock biner like the > Petzl Attache. Yup, gotta be somewhat careful with it, etc.
Which makes it not a very good device, IMHO.
Any device that has a very specific niche, that requires “careful” use and specific size carabiners, has no place on a “just in case” or emergency type gear recommondation.
> For the rope rescue stuff taught in Rich’s ACA Canyon Rescue course, the Tibloc proves the most useful and versatile of pieces. That it can easily be used as both a rope grab and (high friction) pulley is what works so well. Overall, one of the best tools to have in an emergency, AND, very light and low bulk to carry.
Maybe best only recommended if you have access to very inexpensive ropes. I shredded my rope with a Tibloc in a practise rescue. My advice to anyone considering practicing rescue, is to not use a Tibloc.
Oh, that’s right, we’re supposed to be talking about “just in case”.
You can shout “Tiblocs rule” all you want. Then we’ll shout back “Tiblocs suck”. Yes they do. No they don’t. And so on.
-Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
Can we bring this back to the original context?
He did ask what to carry for emergency (Just In Case) or JIC. And I am hoping JIC means once or twice a year is all they get used.
Tibloc rules. Yup, gotta use it with a round-stock biner like the Petzl Attache. Yup, gotta be somewhat careful with it, etc.
My experience with other devices:
WC Ropeman: I carried these for a while, but I found they got ‘used’ by the fine sand found in the desert, and then the spring failed to have enough force for them to work. The little wires tend to wear and have ‘stingers’ hanging off them.
Mini-Traxion: when actually planning on jugging, I bring one or two of these. They work pretty well, but are almost as heavy and bulky as handled ascenders.
Pirana turned around and used as an ascender: only works when the rope is well-broken in. Last time I tried it (Almost), the rope was too stiff, and it did not want to run smoothly.
For the rope rescue stuff taught in Rich’s ACA Canyon Rescue course, the Tibloc proves the most useful and versatile of pieces. That it can easily be used as both a rope grab and (high friction) pulley is what works so well. Overall, one of the best tools to have in an emergency, AND, very light and low bulk to carry.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Neil” wrote:
The tibloc is a good little device. They are certainly not > a ‘silver bullet’ though. If not used correctly or paid close > attention to they will trash your rope in a hurry. If using tiblocs > be aware they require technique to ensure they do not slip or you > will be buying a new rope. They are certainly not idiot proof and > perhaps that makes them inferior to some similar devices.
I personally like them but they are not without their drawbacks. YMMV
Neil
PS – If you use tiblocs beware that they are sensitive to the > thickness of carabiner stock you are using in relationship to the > diameter of your rope. (i.e. – Use thicker carabiners and be > careful with skinny ropes.)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > , sooner or
later they’ll rip your rope because they failed to “bite”.
As a hand-held ascender they’re ok, but for me very
uncomfortable: I’ve got big hands and find it difficult/painful
to get a good grip on the carabiner that clips the tibloc.
> Koen >
Neil
The tibloc is a good little device. They are certainly not a ‘silver bullet’ though. If not used correctly or paid close attention to they will trash your rope in a hurry. If using tiblocs be aware they require technique to ensure they do not slip or you will be buying a new rope. They are certainly not idiot proof and perhaps that makes them inferior to some similar devices.
I personally like them but they are not without their drawbacks. YMMV
Neil
PS – If you use tiblocs beware that they are sensitive to the thickness of carabiner stock you are using in relationship to the diameter of your rope. (i.e. – Use thicker carabiners and be careful with skinny ropes.)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: , sooner or > later they’ll rip your rope because they failed to “bite”. > As a hand-held ascender they’re ok, but for me very uncomfortable: > I’ve got big hands and find it difficult/painful to get a good grip on > the carabiner that clips the tibloc.
> Koen
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > My normal setup which I carry everywhere is a full sized jumar for use > in my hand. The added weight is – for me – offset by the amount of > comfort and versatility. > And a minitraxion (a combination of a pulley and an ascender). The > minitraxion works incredibly smooth as a harness mounted ascender and > has got many more uses.
I’ll ditto the minitraxion as a nice, multi use device. For straight up ascending a rope, a minitraxion on the harness, redirected through a pulley on the upper ascender, is smooth and easy. Bigger pulley (ie Protraxion) would be nice sometimes too…
I do wish someone made a minitraxion type device that could release a load like a gri gri. I jug with a gri gri more often for that reason… (can easily switch to rappel, or, can lower out on a traverse, etc).
-Brian in SLC
mike_dallin
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > Tiblocs aren’t suited for use as a chest-mounted ascender, sooner or > later they’ll rip your rope because they failed to “bite”. > As a hand-held ascender they’re ok, but for me very uncomfortable: > I’ve got big hands and find it difficult/painful to get a good grip on > the carabiner that clips the tibloc.
I can’t stand tiblocs, and I wouldn’t be happy if someone in the group wanted to use theirs on my rope. The reason is you have to be really careful that the tibloc is ‘set’ before you weight it. I had a similar situation like Koen mentions, where my chest-mounted tibloc didn’t bite, and I ended up falling about a foot or two (complete with sickening ‘rope ripping’ noise) until they managed to bite on their own.
Get the Wild Country ropeman – make sure you get the gold one, it accepts smaller diameter ropes than the original. Often we’ll bring one ropeman and one petzl Croll for a pretty good and light ascending system, usable on thinner ropes, and particularly useful for exploring a new canyon where we fix ropes into the sides to ‘check things out’.
M
Koen
> O.K. so Tiblocs are the way to go but I am curious — how do they > perform on a free hanging rope? has anyone used them for more than > ascending 10 or 20 feet? How was the experience? >
Tiblocs aren’t suited for use as a chest-mounted ascender, sooner or later they’ll rip your rope because they failed to “bite”. As a hand-held ascender they’re ok, but for me very uncomfortable: I’ve got big hands and find it difficult/painful to get a good grip on the carabiner that clips the tibloc.
My normal setup which I carry everywhere is a full sized jumar for use in my hand. The added weight is – for me – offset by the amount of comfort and versatility. And a minitraxion (a combination of a pulley and an ascender). The minitraxion works incredibly smooth as a harness mounted ascender and has got many more uses.
Not a light setup but a pretty bombproof one for a muntitude of uses/situations.
Koen
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adrians33” wrote: > I have been using my jumars for years while climbing. But now I find > them bulky and not convenient (though I still drag them along JIC). > O.K. so Tiblocs are the way to go but I am curious — how do they > perform on a free hanging rope? has anyone used them for more than > ascending 10 or 20 feet? How was the experience?
Not a fan of the Tibloc. Better is the WC microsender if you want something nearly the same in size/weight.
I trashed a climbing rope in a rescue practise with one. They are very unforgiving to any slippage.
If I know I need to ascend, a Petzl handled ascender, or, an USHBA basic if I want to save some size and weight, is what I take.
If you think you “might” need to ascend a rope, then good ol’ Prusiks are the way to go.
Only thing a Tibloc is good for is opening a bottle. Seems like most folks that use them file down the first set of teeth.
-Brian in SLC
Jared Hillhouse
I have been using my jumars for years while climbing. But now I find > them bulky and not convenient (though I still drag them along JIC). > O.K. so Tiblocs are the way to go but I am curious — how do they > perform on a free hanging rope? has anyone used them for more than > ascending 10 or 20 feet? How was the experience? > Adrian >
Tiblocs are nice, small, light weight, useful for rescue applications, easy to stick on for a break or brake on a raise etc.
Handled ascenders are of course easier to use and can be used for any application as a tibloc, most people find them too bulky though, especially to carry through a canyon.
If you would still like to carry a handled type ascender, CMI makes a version call the Ultrascender,
http://tinyurl.com/23jj7z
which is just like the full size Jumar style but less bulky. I carry these when I plan on having ascenders.
Jared H.
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adrians33” wrote:
Hi,
I have been using my jumars for years while climbing. But now I > find > them bulky and not convenient (though I still drag them along JIC). > O.K. so Tiblocs are the way to go but I am curious — how do they > perform on a free hanging rope? has anyone used them for more than > ascending 10 or 20 feet? How was the experience? > Adrian > Tiblocs RULE!
yeah, slower and more of a pain than using handled ascenders, but the controlling factor still seems to be my fitness. Tiblocs work pretty well, and are really small to carry. Really useful for various canyon rescue conversions, etc. So,
Tiblocs RULE!
Tom