“One of your knots? How many knots did you have? Again, a single 200′ rope works well for Pine Creek, then you have no knots. If you join two ropes, it helps to have some way of identifying from the bottom which rope has the knot on it. You can do this by tagging your ropes with numbers, or using two different colored ropes, etc., etc., etc…..”
I looked and asked around. The best answer I got (now I would say that wasn’t so hot) was to tie the ropes together using 2 figure 8’s and then backup each figure 8 with a triple fisherman’s (or half of one I guess). It sounded good at the time. I think what happened though, was the triple fisherman’s worked it’s way throught the quicklink under load. I was also using one dynamic and one static. I haven’t figured out how, but I think that this might have been part of the problem as well.
WHAT IS A BETTER KNOT FOR TYING TWO ROPES TOGHETHER??? OR AT LEAST HOW CAN YOU PREVENT A KNOT FROM WORKING ITSELF THROUGH THE RAPPEL RING OR RAPIDLINK/QUICKLINK????
Thanks.
Kris Nosack
On Wed, 22 May 2002 Ted wrote:
Mark,
If either of your dynamic ropes is 60m, then you won’t need to tie ’em > together for the last rappel in Pine Creek. A single 60m dynamic rope will > suffice there.
I second this. Just make sure your rope is a full 60m (kinda hard to do with dynamics – statics too). If you don’t feel 100% on this, take a second rope just in case – it’s only 10 more pounds to lug and Pine is a short canyon. If you think you’ll be back to Pine sometime, check the length of your rope when you pull the two ropes down to see if it reaches the ground.
My 9.8mm x 60m New England KM-III static rope has an elongation of 8% (pretty high for static, me thinks) and it hung (both ends) about 2.5 feet off the ground. With the weight of someone on rappel it would stretch enough to put you down on the ground before you ran out of rope. Bear in mind this is a new rope (ropes tend to shrink as they get older).
– Kris Nosack
Kris Nosack
On Wed, 22 May 2002, kent00112000 wrote: > I come from Wales and have climbed throughout Europe the last 25 odd > years. Everyone uses the overhand knot, especially in the Alps, > where long, and multiples raps are the norm. The overhand – as Scott > rightly says – needs a good long tail, 3-5 ft. It is the only knot > that will run flat over edges, unlike a fig 8 or double fishermans, > which will both hang horribly. Go on try it – I know it looks scary, > as most of my buddies here complain. Once you get over your > irrational fears, it rocks.
3-5 FEET? Seems to me that if you need that much tail for safety, maybe this isn’t such a great knot.
A while back someone posted some data on the overhand and other knots used to tie two ropes together. I don’t remember the exact number, but the overhand held enough weight. Still, I don’t usually use an overhand for joining ropes – just one of those illogical warm fuzzy issues.
A figure 8 can be tied with the long ends of the rope coming out one end of the knot – thus giving it similar properties to the overhand knot for sliding, etc. And in figure 8 I trust.
For an in-line knot, I like a square knot backed up with two double fisherman knots. The square knot is easy to loosen and the fishermans make sure the thing stays tied.
Lot’s of ways to skin this cat.
– Kris Nosack
kent00112000
— In canyons@y…, “Scott Holley” wrote:
> I have seen a lot of Europeans connect 2 ropes by an overhand knot. > > I find this unacceptable. I usually tie the ropes together by a > > figure 8 and half-fisherman.
I love this knot, use it all the time. Easier to untie than a figure > 8 too. Just make sure you give it enough tail to set itself.
Long live the EDK. > –scott I come from Wales and have climbed throughout Europe the last 25 odd years. Everyone uses the overhand knot, especially in the Alps, where long, and multiples raps are the norm. The overhand – as Scott rightly says – needs a good long tail, 3-5 ft. It is the only knot that will run flat over edges, unlike a fig 8 or double fishermans, which will both hang horribly. Go on try it – I know it looks scary, as most of my buddies here complain. Once you get over your irrational fears, it rocks. Lee. ps It is better to have the knot over the edge when ever possible.
tjg@ddci.com
Mark,
If either of your dynamic ropes is 60m, then you won’t need to tie ’em together for the last rappel in Pine Creek. A single 60m dynamic rope will suffice there.
Ted
“apolobamba2001” apolobamba@hotmail.com> on 05/22/2002 03:19:18 PM
Please respond to Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group cc: (bcc: Ted J Gartner/DDC-I) Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: [canyons group] Knots for tying 2 ropes together…
Hey Mark,
I just took a bunch of my friends down Pine Creek. The last rappel has a sharp ledge right with many rope groves below the anchor. With any rope, this can lead abrasion of the rope because all ropes elongate under load. Obviously, Dynamic ropes elongate and bounce more than static. If there are a lot of people in your group, the use of a rope protector or a backpack under the rope can help protect the rope a lot. I noticed the group before our group, rappelling over the ledge without any protection.
The last person is always at more risk. The knot that ties the 2 ropes together should be positioned over the ridge for the last person. If you do not, it can hang up at the ledge. This is very common at this rappel. Also, the last person will have to remove the rope protection in order to pull the ropes. The last person should rappel evenly and avoid pendulums to alleviate abrasion at the ledge.
1 mm is not really a big enough difference to make a big deal. If you have ever gone down 2 different dia. ropes, you will notice that you appear to go down the thicker rope. Actually, I believe you are feeding the thinner rope through the belay device faster. Then the rope at the anchor slides down on the side of the thicker rope due to your weight. If you are conscious of this, it is easy to feed the rope through more evenly.
I have seen a lot of Europeans connect 2 ropes by an overhand knot. I find this unacceptable. I usually tie the ropes together by a figure 8 and half-fisherman.
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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Scott Holley
> I have seen a lot of Europeans connect 2 ropes by an overhand knot. > I find this unacceptable. I usually tie the ropes together by a > figure 8 and half-fisherman.
I love this knot, use it all the time. Easier to untie than a figure 8 too. Just make sure you give it enough tail to set itself.
Long live the EDK. –scott
apolobamba2001
Hey Mark,
I just took a bunch of my friends down Pine Creek. The last rappel has a sharp ledge right with many rope groves below the anchor. With any rope, this can lead abrasion of the rope because all ropes elongate under load. Obviously, Dynamic ropes elongate and bounce more than static. If there are a lot of people in your group, the use of a rope protector or a backpack under the rope can help protect the rope a lot. I noticed the group before our group, rappelling over the ledge without any protection.
The last person is always at more risk. The knot that ties the 2 ropes together should be positioned over the ridge for the last person. If you do not, it can hang up at the ledge. This is very common at this rappel. Also, the last person will have to remove the rope protection in order to pull the ropes. The last person should rappel evenly and avoid pendulums to alleviate abrasion at the ledge.
1 mm is not really a big enough difference to make a big deal. If you have ever gone down 2 different dia. ropes, you will notice that you appear to go down the thicker rope. Actually, I believe you are feeding the thinner rope through the belay device faster. Then the rope at the anchor slides down on the side of the thicker rope due to your weight. If you are conscious of this, it is easy to feed the rope through more evenly.
I have seen a lot of Europeans connect 2 ropes by an overhand knot. I find this unacceptable. I usually tie the ropes together by a figure 8 and half-fisherman.
Dick Shear
Mark: Steve is the man. His advice is bomber. I agree, have fun ! —– Original Message —– From: ausiemac To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:04 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: [canyons group] Knots for tying 2 ropes together…
Dick,
Thanks for the heads up. I’ve been playing abound on the canyons message board all day. As far as I can tell, the two major obstacles at the last rappel are the false floor and the 5.2 climb to the anchor. From your experience, is it possible to belay these obstacles from a station up canyon a bit?
Mark Chapin
Yes, I wear a helmet.
— In canyons@y…, “Dick Shear” wrote: > Mark: > I suggest you dig into the archives about Pine Creek at this site. The last rap can be problematic. Also I believe there is a false floor there so watch for it. Welcome on board and have fun. You do wear a helmet, don’t you ? > Best regards, Dick shear, Las Vegas > —– Original Message —– > From: ausiemac > To: canyons@y… > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:43 PM > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: [canyons group] Knots for tying 2 ropes together… > > > All, > > I’m new to the group, just signed up yesterday. I’ve been playing > around in Southern Utah for a couple of years now. I would consider > myself to be an intermediate canyoneer. I’m heading to Zion this > weekend to attempt some of the classic canyons (Pine Creek/Mystery). > I have yet to attempt a canyon where two ropes are necessary. I’m a > bit concerned about what I’ve been reading about dynamic ropes and > ropes of different daimeter. We have 2 dynamic ropes, one 9mm and > one 10mm. > > Other than the knot issue, should I be concerned about the 1mm > difference in diameter? > > Mark > > > > Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as: > > Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working? > > Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer > > To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/ > > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes". > > DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. > > WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. > > > Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of Service. > > > >
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ausiemac
Dick,
Thanks for the heads up. I’ve been playing abound on the canyons message board all day. As far as I can tell, the two major obstacles at the last rappel are the false floor and the 5.2 climb to the anchor. From your experience, is it possible to belay these obstacles from a station up canyon a bit?
Mark Chapin
Yes, I wear a helmet.
— In canyons@y…, “Dick Shear” wrote: > Mark: > I suggest you dig into the archives about Pine Creek at this site. The last rap can be problematic. Also I believe there is a false floor there so watch for it. Welcome on board and have fun. You do wear a helmet, don’t you ? > Best regards, Dick shear, Las Vegas > —– Original Message —– > From: ausiemac > To: canyons@y… > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:43 PM > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: [canyons group] Knots for tying 2 ropes together…
> All,
I’m new to the group, just signed up yesterday. I’ve been playing > around in Southern Utah for a couple of years now. I would consider > myself to be an intermediate canyoneer. I’m heading to Zion this > weekend to attempt some of the classic canyons (Pine Creek/Mystery). > I have yet to attempt a canyon where two ropes are necessary. I’m a > bit concerned about what I’ve been reading about dynamic ropes and > ropes of different daimeter. We have 2 dynamic ropes, one 9mm and > one 10mm.
Other than the knot issue, should I be concerned about the 1mm > difference in diameter?
Mark
Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT
> When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
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Dick Shear
Mark: I suggest you dig into the archives about Pine Creek at this site. The last rap can be problematic. Also I believe there is a false floor there so watch for it. Welcome on board and have fun. You do wear a helmet, don’t you ? Best regards, Dick shear, Las Vegas —– Original Message —– From: ausiemac To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: [canyons group] Knots for tying 2 ropes together…
All,
I’m new to the group, just signed up yesterday. I’ve been playing around in Southern Utah for a couple of years now. I would consider myself to be an intermediate canyoneer. I’m heading to Zion this weekend to attempt some of the classic canyons (Pine Creek/Mystery). I have yet to attempt a canyon where two ropes are necessary. I’m a bit concerned about what I’ve been reading about dynamic ropes and ropes of different daimeter. We have 2 dynamic ropes, one 9mm and one 10mm.
Other than the knot issue, should I be concerned about the 1mm difference in diameter?
Mark
Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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ausiemac
All,
I’m new to the group, just signed up yesterday. I’ve been playing around in Southern Utah for a couple of years now. I would consider myself to be an intermediate canyoneer. I’m heading to Zion this weekend to attempt some of the classic canyons (Pine Creek/Mystery). I have yet to attempt a canyon where two ropes are necessary. I’m a bit concerned about what I’ve been reading about dynamic ropes and ropes of different daimeter. We have 2 dynamic ropes, one 9mm and one 10mm.
Other than the knot issue, should I be concerned about the 1mm difference in diameter?
Mark
casey murphy
john,
i like the double fishermans though it makes for difficult untying. my other choice is the square fisherman backed up of course. never lashed a dynamic to a static though.
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gajslk@worldnet.att.net
I’ve used the EDK a number of times on a dynamic and static of about the same diameter, 10.5mm dynamic, 11mm static. I looked for and saw no slippage of the knot. There was a tendency for the dynamic to feed preferentially through the rack and it was a bit of a pain to keep them feeding at the same rate. Two ropes of the same type is definitely better, unless you need a dynamic or don’t own enough ropes. I would be afraid to lead on a dynamic that had seen much canyon use – don’t use your good climbing rope unless it’s time to retire it.
Gordon
— In canyons@y…, “Dean Kurtz” wrote: >On the dynamic and static statement, I don’t know how > other people on this group feel about tying the two together, but I wouldn’t > do it unless I had to. This is mostly because I like consistency. I like > two static ropes of the same diameter.
Dean
matt@deserthighlights.com
— In canyons@y…, “Tom Jones” wrote: > Having one static and one dynamic *might* have resulted in a tendency > for the rope to try to shift at the top, driving the triple-backed-up > overly redundant knot with some force into the Rapid-Link. And > getting it jammed.
Sounds like a good theory. Perhaps using one static and one dynamic has a similar effect to using two ropes of different diameters? The tendency there is for the thinner rope to slide through the rap device slightly faster than the thicker rope as you descend. This causes the knot at the anchor to shift around.
There was a fatality on Angel’s Landing a couple winters ago when a roped soloist on the NE face rapped the route he climbed rather than hike the trail down. He rapped off the end of his rope and the cause appeared to be his using two dissimilar diameter ropes with the thinner rope sliding faster through his device. He unexpectedly got to the end of the thinner rope and that was that. Tom, maybe you have the morning report for that accident?
Matt
Tom Jones
Having one static and one dynamic *might* have resulted in a tendency for the rope to try to shift at the top, driving the triple-backed-up overly redundant knot with some force into the Rapid-Link. And getting it jammed.
Admittedly, there is an ugly selection of grooves and cracks at the top there, and the last person down should be the most experienced to carefully place the rope in the most advantageous position.
While some prefer the Euro-Death-Knot, on dissimilar ropes I like the Euro-Death-Figure-8 or ED-Figure 9: most of the same benefits with a little more security.
And if you come take the ACA course or do a canyon or two with an acolyte, you would learn some techniques for avoiding this difficulty in the first place.
Tom
— In canyons@y…, “Dean Kurtz” wrote: > I have my doubts that part of the knot pulled through the quick link, > especially since a fisherman’s knot works very well as a knot block. What > more likely happened was this huge knot (and I’m not bagging on you for it) > got stuck in one of the rope grooves on the rock, or in the horizontal crack > that is directly below the anchor. An overhand knot with plenty of tail is > perfectly adequate. On the dynamic and static statement, I don’t know how > other people on this group feel about tying the two together, but I wouldn’t > do it unless I had to. This is mostly because I like consistency. I like > two static ropes of the same diameter.
Dean
—– Original Message —– > From: Getting too much email from the Canyons Group?
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>
rcwild@wildernessmail.net
Like Hank, I prefer a simple overhand knot for connecting two similar ropes. But if I only have dissimilar ropes (i.e. one dynamic and one static or both static but different diameters) I would prefer to set them up so I am only rapping on one and using the other for retrieval.
In the situation described, I would run my static rope through the anchor and tie it to the dynamic with a beefy knot — perhaps a rethreaded figure eight. This would block the static rope at the top so I could rap on it single strand. The dynamic rope would be the retrieval strand. This will also reduce the possibility of snags since the two ropes won’t twist together.
It’s possible that his rope got stuck in one of those cracks, but it’s also possible that his super deluxe, triple back-up, Mack truck knot got stuck in a twist in the ropes.
… and I would only use the piton-prussik method if that pool at the bottom was much, much deeper.
Rich
Dean Kurtz
I have my doubts that part of the knot pulled through the quick link, especially since a fisherman’s knot works very well as a knot block. What more likely happened was this huge knot (and I’m not bagging on you for it) got stuck in one of the rope grooves on the rock, or in the horizontal crack that is directly below the anchor. An overhand knot with plenty of tail is perfectly adequate. On the dynamic and static statement, I don’t know how other people on this group feel about tying the two together, but I wouldn’t do it unless I had to. This is mostly because I like consistency. I like two static ropes of the same diameter.
Dean
—– Original Message —– From: john_wilkinson@modusmedia.com> To: Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 2:26 PM Subject: [canyons group] Knots for tying 2 ropes together…
> “One of your knots? How many knots did you have? Again, a single > 200′ rope works well for Pine Creek, then you have no knots. If you > join two ropes, it helps to have some way of identifying from the > bottom which rope has the knot on it. You can do this by tagging > your ropes with numbers, or using two different colored ropes, etc., > etc., etc…..”
I looked and asked around. The best answer I got (now I would say > that wasn’t so hot) was to tie the ropes together using 2 figure 8’s > and then backup each figure 8 with a triple fisherman’s (or half of > one I guess). It sounded good at the time. I think what happened > though, was the triple fisherman’s worked it’s way throught the > quicklink under load. I was also using one dynamic and one static. > I haven’t figured out how, but I think that this might have been part > of the problem as well.
WHAT IS A BETTER KNOT FOR TYING TWO ROPES TOGHETHER??? OR AT LEAST > HOW CAN YOU PREVENT A KNOT FROM WORKING ITSELF THROUGH THE RAPPEL > RING OR RAPIDLINK/QUICKLINK????
Thanks.
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hmoon@petzl.com
The best knot – bar none – for tying two ropes together is the “overhand” knot, aka EDK, aka Euro death knot. For an illustration of how to tie, see http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/tech/knots3.html#2ropes john_wilkinson@modusmedia.com 07/16/01 02:26 PM Please respond to canyons To: canyons@yahoogroups.com cc: Subject: [canyons group] Knots for tying 2 ropes together… “One of your knots? How many knots did you have? Again, a single 200′ rope works well for Pine Creek, then you have no knots. If you join two ropes, it helps to have some way of identifying from the bottom which rope has the knot on it. You can do this by tagging your ropes with numbers, or using two different colored ropes, etc., etc., etc…..” I looked and asked around. The best answer I got (now I would say that wasn’t so hot) was to tie the ropes together using 2 figure 8’s and then backup each figure 8 with a triple fisherman’s (or half of one I guess). It sounded good at the time. I think what happened though, was the triple fisherman’s worked it’s way throught the quicklink under load. I was also using one dynamic and one static. I haven’t figured out how, but I think that this might have been part of the problem as well. WHAT IS A BETTER KNOT FOR TYING TWO ROPES TOGHETHER??? OR AT LEAST HOW CAN YOU PREVENT A KNOT FROM WORKING ITSELF THROUGH THE RAPPEL RING OR RAPIDLINK/QUICKLINK???? Thanks. Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association http://www.canyoneering.net Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options. DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/