I received this information on May 23rd.
I just got back from going down Larry Canyon yesterday. (My first trip in ages . . . gawd, it felt good to leave a little blood on the sandstone again.) Anyway, someone has recently bolted the second-to-last rappel, the one where you used to have to use the deadman setup. Two bolts, seem to be glue-ins. They seem to be technically well placed, but they’re right in the flood line in the bottom of the canyon so they probably don’t have a long life in front of them. We sent people down on them, with belay, and they worked fine. But it seemed such a half ass setup. Webbing wasn’t equalized, one piece of webbing was anchored to a rusty ass quick link and the other was simply threaded through the hanger.
I got confirmation just today, with some pictures
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/photos/album/1423028246/pic/list
and these comments; Great (bypassed) natural anchor option right next to the new bolts: Feel free to post on the group if you want… I don’t have time or desire for one of the debates right now (unfortunately).
Soooooo, this canyon has been done for decades with all natural anchors. Has there ever been bolts in there? What bolts With the information provided above, what if anything should be done? Even BDC did this one years ago au natural. http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ap14/a.htm
Leave alone? Remove and patch? Publicly? Privately? BTW how long have they been there? Anyone know who placed them?
MarkS
I would bet those bolts were placed by the SAR group this winter?
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?37626-Wayne-County-Search-and-Rescue&highlight=Larry+Canyon
They were there when I went thru in April.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I received this information on May 23rd.
> I just got back from going down Larry Canyon yesterday. (My first trip in ages . . . gawd, it felt good to leave a little blood on the sandstone again.) Anyway, someone has recently bolted the second-to-last rappel, the one where you used to have to use the deadman setup. Two bolts, seem to be glue-ins. They seem to be technically well placed, but they’re right in the flood line in the bottom of the canyon so they probably don’t have a long life in front of them. We sent people down on them, with belay, and they worked fine. But it seemed such a half ass setup. Webbing wasn’t equalized, one piece of webbing was anchored to a rusty ass quick link and the other was simply threaded through the hanger.
> I got confirmation just today, with some pictures
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/photos/album/1423028246/pic/list
> and these comments; > Great (bypassed) natural anchor option right next to the new bolts: > Feel free to post on the group if you want… I don’t have time or desire for one of the debates right now (unfortunately).
Soooooo, this canyon has been done for decades with all natural anchors. Has there ever been bolts in there? What bolts With the information provided above, what if anything should be done? Even BDC did this one years ago au natural. > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ap14/a.htm
> Leave alone? Remove and patch? Publicly? Privately? > BTW how long have they been there? Anyone know who placed them? >
TomJones
Entirely. Yes. Was referring to the thread in general, rather than to your specific post. My apologies for the implication otherwise.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “thegowda” wrote:
Tom, > Of course. Where in my posting do you see a suggestion of violence?? Perhaps you are referring to an earlier post regarding a certain drill being deposited in a certain place lacking sunshine? > I was stating the opposite. I was suggesting an appeal, harping on the point if need be, to all of us simply not to bolt when it is unnecessary, as is the case in Larry. And, if resorting to bolts is the only way one can do a canyon that is doable without bolts, then one’s time is better spent improving their skills so they too can descend without bolts. Yes, to bolt or not to bolt is a personal choice, but it is a silly choice when it is not needed.
I also really appreciate Ryan’s calling us all out to be more responsible with our “natural” anchors. Very true and well said. I for one will try to do better. > But I didn’t say that anyone should be “beaten up” over anchors. So please don’t attribute that to my post.
-Mike
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
To bolt, or not to bolt. That is the question…
Or, actually, a personal choice. I don’t believe threatening with bodily harm, however cybernetically, is an effective method to convince people to not bolt in our shared canyons.
Are you going to beat them up if they don’t play nice? Who is then going to beat you up for not playing nice?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “thegowda” wrote:
Hmmmm…yeah, it does make sense that the bolt placers may not frequent the forum, but i’m not sure i’d completely rule it out either because they must know something about hardware if they are able to place a bolt in the first place (even if the bolt is misplaced and placed poorly). This makes them especially dangerous, in my opinion, as they have a misguided sense of security in their canyon descents because they feel they can rely on the bolt-kit when confronted with a problem beyond their actual level of skill. And there’s no reason to think that such people, secure in their bolting techniques and their Kelsey routes, will not seek current beta on this forum for canyons that would otherwise be out of their reach.
Maybe we need another general appeal (eesh when will people actually get it!?) to stop bolting on this forum? Who knows…the bolt placer may be a regular on this forum and yet not even reading this exchange because the subject heading didn’t grab them (having already done Larry in the recent past and not needing fresh beta, they could have entirely skipped these postings?).
Really, what else can we do except to keep harping on it? It’s not like we can grab every canyoneer whom we don’t know personally and shake them down to come clean on their habits when we come across them in the canyons. That’s not to say I wouldn’t like to after reading stuff like this, but then we’d never make any new sexily-clad neoprene friends.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Bruce Neumann wrote:
Your Right RAM, the person who placed the bolts probably doesn’t frequent the canyons forum.
And the person is probably confused. There are bolts in EF Blue John, Piton/Bolt in NFRR, Maybe Mindbender has quite a few, etc. And there are a few others that give people the idea it is o.k. to place them since they exist in these other Roost canyons.
Bruce
From: adkramoo@
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:33:12 +0000
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Larry Canyon- New bolts
While there are those that feel bolts are a preferred solution (skifast where are you?) always and others here think they should be used in some places, most bolts arise (i’m guessing now) from folks not connected with any board. They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket. May even own a g-pick? It would be really nice to find out who it is, so we can toss ideas their way. Not sure how we can find out. Ideas?
R
_______________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
>
thegowda
Tom, Of course. Where in my posting do you see a suggestion of violence?? Perhaps you are referring to an earlier post regarding a certain drill being deposited in a certain place lacking sunshine? I was stating the opposite. I was suggesting an appeal, harping on the point if need be, to all of us simply not to bolt when it is unnecessary, as is the case in Larry. And, if resorting to bolts is the only way one can do a canyon that is doable without bolts, then one’s time is better spent improving their skills so they too can descend without bolts. Yes, to bolt or not to bolt is a personal choice, but it is a silly choice when it is not needed.
I also really appreciate Ryan’s calling us all out to be more responsible with our “natural” anchors. Very true and well said. I for one will try to do better. But I didn’t say that anyone should be “beaten up” over anchors. So please don’t attribute that to my post.
-Mike
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
To bolt, or not to bolt. That is the question…
Or, actually, a personal choice. I don’t believe threatening with bodily harm, however cybernetically, is an effective method to convince people to not bolt in our shared canyons.
Are you going to beat them up if they don’t play nice? Who is then going to beat you up for not playing nice?
Tom
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “thegowda” wrote:
Hmmmm…yeah, it does make sense that the bolt placers may not frequent the forum, but i’m not sure i’d completely rule it out either because they must know something about hardware if they are able to place a bolt in the first place (even if the bolt is misplaced and placed poorly). This makes them especially dangerous, in my opinion, as they have a misguided sense of security in their canyon descents because they feel they can rely on the bolt-kit when confronted with a problem beyond their actual level of skill. And there’s no reason to think that such people, secure in their bolting techniques and their Kelsey routes, will not seek current beta on this forum for canyons that would otherwise be out of their reach.
Maybe we need another general appeal (eesh when will people actually get it!?) to stop bolting on this forum? Who knows…the bolt placer may be a regular on this forum and yet not even reading this exchange because the subject heading didn’t grab them (having already done Larry in the recent past and not needing fresh beta, they could have entirely skipped these postings?).
Really, what else can we do except to keep harping on it? It’s not like we can grab every canyoneer whom we don’t know personally and shake them down to come clean on their habits when we come across them in the canyons. That’s not to say I wouldn’t like to after reading stuff like this, but then we’d never make any new sexily-clad neoprene friends.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Bruce Neumann wrote:
> Your Right RAM, the person who placed the bolts probably doesn’t frequent the canyons forum.
And the person is probably confused. There are bolts in EF Blue John, Piton/Bolt in NFRR, Maybe Mindbender has quite a few, etc. And there are a few others that give people the idea it is o.k. to place them since they exist in these other Roost canyons.
Bruce
> From: adkramoo@
> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:33:12 +0000
> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Larry Canyon- New bolts
While there are those that feel bolts are a preferred solution (skifast where are you?) always and others here think they should be used in some places, most bolts arise (i’m guessing now) from folks not connected with any board. They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket. May even own a g-pick? It would be really nice to find out who it is, so we can toss ideas their way. Not sure how we can find out. Ideas?
> R
_______________
> The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
>
TomJones
To bolt, or not to bolt. That is the question…
Or, actually, a personal choice. I don’t believe threatening with bodily harm, however cybernetically, is an effective method to convince people to not bolt in our shared canyons.
Are you going to beat them up if they don’t play nice? Who is then going to beat you up for not playing nice?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “thegowda” wrote:
Hmmmm…yeah, it does make sense that the bolt placers may not frequent the forum, but i’m not sure i’d completely rule it out either because they must know something about hardware if they are able to place a bolt in the first place (even if the bolt is misplaced and placed poorly). This makes them especially dangerous, in my opinion, as they have a misguided sense of security in their canyon descents because they feel they can rely on the bolt-kit when confronted with a problem beyond their actual level of skill. And there’s no reason to think that such people, secure in their bolting techniques and their Kelsey routes, will not seek current beta on this forum for canyons that would otherwise be out of their reach.
Maybe we need another general appeal (eesh when will people actually get it!?) to stop bolting on this forum? Who knows…the bolt placer may be a regular on this forum and yet not even reading this exchange because the subject heading didn’t grab them (having already done Larry in the recent past and not needing fresh beta, they could have entirely skipped these postings?).
Really, what else can we do except to keep harping on it? It’s not like we can grab every canyoneer whom we don’t know personally and shake them down to come clean on their habits when we come across them in the canyons. That’s not to say I wouldn’t like to after reading stuff like this, but then we’d never make any new sexily-clad neoprene friends.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Bruce Neumann wrote:
Your Right RAM, the person who placed the bolts probably doesn’t frequent the canyons forum.
And the person is probably confused. There are bolts in EF Blue John, Piton/Bolt in NFRR, Maybe Mindbender has quite a few, etc. And there are a few others that give people the idea it is o.k. to place them since they exist in these other Roost canyons.
Bruce
From: adkramoo@
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:33:12 +0000
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Larry Canyon- New bolts
While there are those that feel bolts are a preferred solution (skifast where are you?) always and others here think they should be used in some places, most bolts arise (i’m guessing now) from folks not connected with any board. They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket. May even own a g-pick? It would be really nice to find out who it is, so we can toss ideas their way. Not sure how we can find out. Ideas?
R
_______________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
>
>
RAM
Hey Scott Thanks for wading in. When I made the hip pocket comment, I was not referring to Kelsey and Larry specifically, just his general support for bolting (as Skifast comments per Mindbender bolts of the recent past). It is true that you and several others spent time with him, showing other techniques, some of which are also represented in his guide. I salute all of you for those efforts. It was a great service, in my mind (YMMV) and several of you took heat for doing so.
Now as far as the g-pick goes…..Grrrrr. Mike has been requesting information of the boys who just did that series of hard canyons, and they are all livid (and non communicative) about the chopped out places in what was a canyon that showed no other signs of man. Maybe I’ll suggest asking the “why” of those chips which they strongly objected to ethically, but also made no sense to them on a utility level. Ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote:
“They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket.” >  > If interested, about 11 years ago, Larry Canyon was one of the canyons I did with MK to show him about using natural anchors (in addition the canyon had been on my list for a long time).    We didn’t place any bolts in the canyon as far as I know he’s never mentioned that it should be bolted.
> >
scott patterson
“They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket.”  If interested, about 11 years ago, Larry Canyon was one of the canyons I did with MK to show him about using natural anchors (in addition the canyon had been on my list for a long time).    We didn’t place any bolts in the canyon as far as I know he’s never mentioned that it should be bolted.
phil
But we don’t want anymore bolts in pristine environments; the body is an operating ecosystem that would likely be harmed by such placement.
Might be nice to know the “why” of the bolt placement (if possible). While I may disagree with the placement of this bolt I can at least understand or rationalize the use in certain scenarios. Say…
Self Rescue? Seems like a few bolts have been put in the North Wash and Roost area in extraordinary situations (even if they were removable). I think Shakespeare said, if I am correct it was in his play “Sandthrax”, that Past is Prologue.
Just a thought. May not stop the removal but it could provide some context; might prevent so many people walking around with mechanical equipment shoved up their “pristine environments”.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
>> It would be ideal to contact the placer for an info exchange prior to removal.
If by contact and info exchange you mean take their drill and shove it up their ass I’m with you 100%!!! >
thegowda
Hmmmm…yeah, it does make sense that the bolt placers may not frequent the forum, but i’m not sure i’d completely rule it out either because they must know something about hardware if they are able to place a bolt in the first place (even if the bolt is misplaced and placed poorly). This makes them especially dangerous, in my opinion, as they have a misguided sense of security in their canyon descents because they feel they can rely on the bolt-kit when confronted with a problem beyond their actual level of skill. And there’s no reason to think that such people, secure in their bolting techniques and their Kelsey routes, will not seek current beta on this forum for canyons that would otherwise be out of their reach.
Maybe we need another general appeal (eesh when will people actually get it!?) to stop bolting on this forum? Who knows…the bolt placer may be a regular on this forum and yet not even reading this exchange because the subject heading didn’t grab them (having already done Larry in the recent past and not needing fresh beta, they could have entirely skipped these postings?).
Really, what else can we do except to keep harping on it? It’s not like we can grab every canyoneer whom we don’t know personally and shake them down to come clean on their habits when we come across them in the canyons. That’s not to say I wouldn’t like to after reading stuff like this, but then we’d never make any new sexily-clad neoprene friends.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Bruce Neumann wrote:
> Your Right RAM, the person who placed the bolts probably doesn’t frequent the canyons forum.
And the person is probably confused. There are bolts in EF Blue John, Piton/Bolt in NFRR, Maybe Mindbender has quite a few, etc. And there are a few others that give people the idea it is o.k. to place them since they exist in these other Roost canyons.
Bruce
> From: adkramoo@… > Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:33:12 +0000 > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Larry Canyon- New bolts
While there are those that feel bolts are a preferred solution (skifast where are you?) always and others here think they should be used in some places, most bolts arise (i’m guessing now) from folks not connected with any board. They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket. May even own a g-pick? It would be really nice to find out who it is, so we can toss ideas their way. Not sure how we can find out. Ideas? > R
_______________ > The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
> >
Bruce Neumann
Your Right RAM, the person who placed the bolts probably doesn’t frequent the canyons forum.
And the person is probably confused. There are bolts in EF Blue John, Piton/Bolt in NFRR, Maybe Mindbender has quite a few, etc. And there are a few others that give people the idea it is o.k. to place them since they exist in these other Roost canyons.
Bruce
From: adkramoo@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:33:12 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Larry Canyon- New bolts
While there are those that feel bolts are a preferred solution (skifast where are you?) always and others here think they should be used in some places, most bolts arise (i’m guessing now) from folks not connected with any board. They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket. May even own a g-pick? It would be really nice to find out who it is, so we can toss ideas their way. Not sure how we can find out. Ideas? R
_______________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
RAM
While there are those that feel bolts are a preferred solution (skifast where are you?) always and others here think they should be used in some places, most bolts arise (i’m guessing now) from folks not connected with any board. They gotta copy of Kelsey slot guide in the hip pocket. May even own a g-pick? It would be really nice to find out who it is, so we can toss ideas their way. Not sure how we can find out. Ideas? R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
>> It would be ideal to contact the placer for an info exchange prior to removal.
If by contact and info exchange you mean take their drill and shove it up their ass I’m with you 100%!!! >
Ice
>> It would be ideal to contact the placer for an info exchange prior to removal.
If by contact and info exchange you mean take their drill and shove it up their ass I’m with you 100%!!!
Randi
Hahaha!!! Neoprene is sexy! I’m already doomed—-
— On Thu, 6/17/10, phil Happyfeet00@Hotmail.com> wrote:
From: phil Happyfeet00@Hotmail.com> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Larry Canyon- New bolts To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 10:54 AM
ÂÂ
Sounds kinky.
Unfortunately, I have found abstinence only education doesn’t work very well. Maybe we should introduce them to bolt contraception or at least provide cheap family planning options. Not to mention, breeding is only natural and children need to learn about it from someone. Might as well do it in an educated way that lets them know that bolts aren’t dirty or illegal so they don’t develop any complexes. If you don’t , who knows what they will get into: sandbagging, fifi-hooks, neoprene. It is the Robber’s Roost fo god’s sake, its were all the outlaws with taboo habits go.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
>
> The Larry Canyon bolts should be removed as soon as possible.
>
> Bolts breed bolts… if you leave these bolts there will be more bolts in the Roost next spring.
>
> Please don’t vandalize the canyons. You or your children might want to experience them in their pristine state someday.
>
phil
Sounds kinky.
Unfortunately, I have found abstinence only education doesn’t work very well. Maybe we should introduce them to bolt contraception or at least provide cheap family planning options. Not to mention, breeding is only natural and children need to learn about it from someone. Might as well do it in an educated way that lets them know that bolts aren’t dirty or illegal so they don’t develop any complexes. If you don’t , who knows what they will get into: sandbagging, fifi-hooks, neoprene. It is the Robber’s Roost fo god’s sake, its were all the outlaws with taboo habits go.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
The Larry Canyon bolts should be removed as soon as possible.
Bolts breed bolts… if you leave these bolts there will be more bolts in the Roost next spring.
Please don’t vandalize the canyons. You or your children might want to experience them in their pristine state someday. >
phil
Support. No real stance on this one other than, if possible, contacting the placer seems ideal. Best of luck.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon wrote:
removing glue-ins can be fun, so be careful. It would be ideal to contact > the placer for an info exchange prior to removal. >
thegowda
Good point…does anyone have any idea who placed the bolts? I promise to keep my personal opinions to myself.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon wrote:
removing glue-ins can be fun, so be careful. It would be ideal to contact > the placer for an info exchange prior to removal.
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:45 AM, thegowda wrote:
> Wow, what a shame. Let’s remove. Though not exactly “soon”, I am planning
on doing Larry and Chambers in beginning September, so I would be happy to
tackle the removal if no one will be descending, and willing, before then?
Having only experienced Larry for the first time last summer, it is a real
shame to think of it being defaced like this before I was ever able to get
back there to enjoy it again.
Oh, well. I guess not everyone believes in playing nicely.
-Mike
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “RAM”
wrote:
I received this information on May 23rd.
> I just got back from going down Larry Canyon yesterday. (My first trip in
ages . . . gawd, it felt good to leave a little blood on the sandstone
again.) Anyway, someone has recently bolted the second-to-last rappel, the
one where you used to have to use the deadman setup. Two bolts, seem to be
glue-ins. They seem to be technically well placed, but they’re right in the
flood line in the bottom of the canyon so they probably don’t have a long
life in front of them. We sent people down on them, with belay, and they
worked fine. But it seemed such a half ass setup. Webbing wasn’t equalized,
one piece of webbing was anchored to a rusty ass quick link and the other
was simply threaded through the hanger.
> I got confirmation just today, with some pictures
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/photos/album/1423028246/pic/list
> and these comments;
> Great (bypassed) natural anchor option right next to the new bolts:
> Feel free to post on the group if you want… I don’t have time or desire
for one of the debates right now (unfortunately).
Soooooo, this canyon has been done for decades with all natural anchors.
Has there ever been bolts in there? What bolts With the information provided
above, what if anything should be done? Even BDC did this one years ago au
natural.
> http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ap14/a.htm
> Leave alone? Remove and patch? Publicly? Privately?
> BTW how long have they been there? Anyone know who placed them?
>
hank moon
removing glue-ins can be fun, so be careful. It would be ideal to contact the placer for an info exchange prior to removal.
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:45 AM, thegowda thegowda@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Wow, what a shame. Let’s remove. Though not exactly “soon”, I am planning > on doing Larry and Chambers in beginning September, so I would be happy to > tackle the removal if no one will be descending, and willing, before then?
Having only experienced Larry for the first time last summer, it is a real > shame to think of it being defaced like this before I was ever able to get > back there to enjoy it again. > Oh, well. I guess not everyone believes in playing nicely.
-Mike
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group , “RAM” > wrote:
I received this information on May 23rd.
I just got back from going down Larry Canyon yesterday. (My first trip in > ages . . . gawd, it felt good to leave a little blood on the sandstone > again.) Anyway, someone has recently bolted the second-to-last rappel, the > one where you used to have to use the deadman setup. Two bolts, seem to be > glue-ins. They seem to be technically well placed, but they’re right in the > flood line in the bottom of the canyon so they probably don’t have a long > life in front of them. We sent people down on them, with belay, and they > worked fine. But it seemed such a half ass setup. Webbing wasn’t equalized, > one piece of webbing was anchored to a rusty ass quick link and the other > was simply threaded through the hanger.
I got confirmation just today, with some pictures
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/photos/album/1423028246/pic/list
> and these comments;
Great (bypassed) natural anchor option right next to the new bolts:
Feel free to post on the group if you want… I don’t have time or desire > for one of the debates right now (unfortunately).
Soooooo, this canyon has been done for decades with all natural anchors. > Has there ever been bolts in there? What bolts With the information provided > above, what if anything should be done? Even BDC did this one years ago au > natural.
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ap14/a.htm
> Leave alone? Remove and patch? Publicly? Privately?
BTW how long have they been there? Anyone know who placed them?
>
thegowda
Wow, what a shame. Let’s remove. Though not exactly “soon”, I am planning on doing Larry and Chambers in beginning September, so I would be happy to tackle the removal if no one will be descending, and willing, before then?
Having only experienced Larry for the first time last summer, it is a real shame to think of it being defaced like this before I was ever able to get back there to enjoy it again. Oh, well. I guess not everyone believes in playing nicely.
-Mike
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I received this information on May 23rd.
> I just got back from going down Larry Canyon yesterday. (My first trip in ages . . . gawd, it felt good to leave a little blood on the sandstone again.) Anyway, someone has recently bolted the second-to-last rappel, the one where you used to have to use the deadman setup. Two bolts, seem to be glue-ins. They seem to be technically well placed, but they’re right in the flood line in the bottom of the canyon so they probably don’t have a long life in front of them. We sent people down on them, with belay, and they worked fine. But it seemed such a half ass setup. Webbing wasn’t equalized, one piece of webbing was anchored to a rusty ass quick link and the other was simply threaded through the hanger.
> I got confirmation just today, with some pictures
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/photos/album/1423028246/pic/list
> and these comments; > Great (bypassed) natural anchor option right next to the new bolts: > Feel free to post on the group if you want… I don’t have time or desire for one of the debates right now (unfortunately).
Soooooo, this canyon has been done for decades with all natural anchors. Has there ever been bolts in there? What bolts With the information provided above, what if anything should be done? Even BDC did this one years ago au natural. > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ap14/a.htm
> Leave alone? Remove and patch? Publicly? Privately? > BTW how long have they been there? Anyone know who placed them? >
Ice
The Larry Canyon bolts should be removed as soon as possible.
Bolts breed bolts… if you leave these bolts there will be more bolts in the Roost next spring.
Please don’t vandalize the canyons. You or your children might want to experience them in their pristine state someday.
jjim9922@aol.com
Sorry, Ram, I saw your message on this a week or so ago and forgot to get back to you. And, uh, sure, it’s okay to spread the word. My bad.
As far as my recollection of the history goes, I first did this route with Pat Palmieri, Dave Black and Steve Allen in November 1998; Steve had done it several times over several years before with his usual crew (Silvester, Halpern, Finch, et al). It was my introduction to the bolt/no-bolt canyoneering ethic, and though I hate to speak for Dave, probably his, too. We did a bunch of canyons that week, and Steve took the opportunity to give us the long and the short on his bolt ethic: “If it can’t be done clean, it shouldn’t be done at all,” pretty much sums it up. Of course, Mr. Allen was in the practice of doing multi-day explorations of some interesting cleft, and, as I recall, the first (modern) descent of Larry Canyon took 2-3 days. Fixed ropes on every rappel, a bit of reversing, much thinking twice. Emphasis on the word “thinking.” He picked up a few converts that trip.
This was also my first experience in being sworn to secrecy about a canyon . . . and, even though it’s become a trade route, it’s the first time I’ve mentioned Larry Canyon outside of my little band of acquaintances. That explains, I hope, my delay in getting back to you about posting my original note on the bolts.
It’s a lovely canyon, neat problems, and there’s no reason at all to bolt the place. I’ve done it numerous times over the years, it’s a classic and one of my favorites. Until a few weeks ago, it’s never been bolted. As far as when they were placed, I think I can say with reasonable authority that they were placed within a week of the post I sent you on May 23.
As for what to do with the new bolts, all I can say is nobody needed them for going on twenty years, and they don’t need them now.
Jim Wright
—–Original Message—– From: RAM adkramoo@aol.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wed, Jun 16, 2010 8:23 pm Subject: [from Canyons Group] Larry Canyon- New bolts
I received this information on May 23rd.
I just got back from going down Larry Canyon yesterday. (My first trip in ages . . . gawd, it felt good to leave a little blood on the sandstone again.) Anyway, someone has recently bolted the second-to-last rappel, the one where you used to have to use the deadman setup. Two bolts, seem to be glue-ins. They seem to be technically well placed, but they’re right in the flood line in the bottom of the canyon so they probably don’t have a long life in front of them. We sent people down on them, with belay, and they worked fine. But it seemed such a half ass setup. Webbing wasn’t equalized, one piece of webbing was anchored to a rusty ass quick link and the other was simply threaded through the hanger.
I got confirmation just today, with some pictures
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/photos/album/1423028246/pic/list
and these comments; Great (bypassed) natural anchor option right next to the new bolts: Feel free to post on the group if you want… I don’t have time or desire for one of the debates right now (unfortunately).
Soooooo, this canyon has been done for decades with all natural anchors. Has there ever been bolts in there? What bolts With the information provided above, what if anything should be done? Even BDC did this one years ago au natural. http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ap14/a.htm
Leave alone? Remove and patch? Publicly? Privately? BTW how long have they been there? Anyone know who placed them?