New poll for Canyons

> From: “wbees” wbees@yahoo.com

Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group

Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:07:54 -0000 > To: Yahoo Canyons Group

Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: New poll for Canyons

Hello Jeff,

we have people signing > off the group because there is too little of value and too much > fighting and name calling. Clearly at least some people find the > signal-to-noise ratio of this group unacceptable. This forum > rarely actually discusses the real points in serious postings > without an excessive amount of name calling and nonsense.

I agree Bill

> What do you mean by it doesn’t ask people to make a choice? > Don’t they have a number of preordained choices to choose > from?

My observation is that if there is a choice to be made it is only to choose which phrase best describes your opinion. Not to ask people to choose to adopt any given ethic.

> If it’s just to express an opinion don’t you want it > to be an informed opinion?

Yes, otherwise dont vote unless you feel you are informed.

> I do not think it is reasonable to ask > people to search through the entire archives to review the bolt > debate. Remember that a large number of the subscribers here > are novices and I think they would appreciate a concise > summary of the major arguments both for and against bolting. > Note that I called for both sides to be represented here.

I agree, However I think a debate and a simple poll are 2 different things designed for 2 different purposes.

I feel the choices are inappropriate. Option three is the one I find > most acceptable, but it asks me to sign on to “CP canyons go > without bolts”. This is not necessarily a true statement, for > example I’m sure there is no canyon that requires bolts on the > CP but the alternative may be even worse than bolts. This is why > I offered my help in phrasing the choices. As of now the choices > are so artificially constrained compared to the nuances and > complexity of the real world I fear that the poll may be garbage in, > garbage out.

I agree with you on most all of this bill, I think where we disagree is in the weight that we give the poll. To me its just a simple poll that gives you an opportunity to express how feel. By its nature the choices lack complexity. If this were a debate on the other hand, I would agree with you whole heartedly.

Regarding your second post (#6328) I did not claim the poll was > inflammatory. I made a statement that the poll timing appears > that it may have been chosen to ride the wave of anger at the > many postings here that were intemperate.

I think it was someone else that I quoted here but if I was wrong I apologize and retract. As for the timing, I concede that you may be right but I find it hard to believe that Tom, an ACA board member, would maliciously send a post to propagate the wave. I chose to look at it as a way to change the subject or to give people an outlet to vent there frustrations.

> Kindly remember > that I am the one asking for open debate on the merits of the > issues here. I am not pissed off, I simply want to discuss > issues without name calling and nonsense interfering with the > debate. As to reading between the lines, can you explain why no > one from the egroups or ACA has contacted me about my offer to > help? Does that sound like “good natured people ….. no one is > out to stomp on anyone else”? Someone or more than just > someone didn’t want to give both sides a fair hearing before this > poll is voted on.

I cannot speak for the ACA or this group but perhaps they just dont have a desire to fuel the bolt debate as these debates are largely unfruitful and tend to feed angry emotions which have been running amuck lately and as good natured people, they dont want to add fuel to the fire.

I appreciate your reply Bill. The last word is yours

Nice to meet you by the way.

Jeff

> It appears to me that the poll timing and phrasing may have > been chosen to ride upon people’s anger with the intemperate > nature of the postings here and not to give people information > about the choice they are asked to make. How can you be > against giving people information about their proposed choice?

I respectfully disagree with you here bill. I dont think the poll is designed to ask anyone to make a choice. Merely to let their opinion be heard. Its not like the poll results will become policy, its just a way to express an opinion.

as far as the information goes, that is what this group is all about. the free exchange of ideas and information. I dont think anyone here is against giving people information. If you want information, all you have to do is ask and there will be many helpful replies to answer your question.

jeff